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  #11  
Old April 5th 21, 09:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
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Posts: 1,331
Default tubeless or tubes

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 1:31:58 PM UTC-7, Tosspot wrote:
On 4/5/21 9:03 PM, sms wrote:
On 4/4/2021 5:59 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so
much on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't
flat much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much
easier just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?

Deacon Mark


If you're a racer and you have a support vehicle following you with
spare wheels then definitely go tubeless!

Tubeless adoption has not happened except at the high end. It's a lot of
trouble and expense to save just a small amount of weight.

I'm losing this. We are talking tubeless and not tubular right?

Correct. I think that I went through this about tubulars before. The advantage of tubulars is that they are glued onto the rims. If you get a flat you don't have the tire flipping off the the rim and crashing you. They also have the advantage that if you are a pro mechanic and you give a rider a change you can take the wheel into the car with you, pull on a pre-glued tire, fill it from a cartridge and lean out the window and place the repaired tire on the rack. Since everyone is presently using different wheels this means that you have to have your own wheels for your own riders and neutral support isn't very helpful anymore.

There is absolutely NO reason to use tubulars on a crit. Tubeless have a lower rolling resistance. And they fit so tight that it is extremely unlikely that they would slip off of the rim like a clincher might.
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  #12  
Old April 5th 21, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,170
Default tubeless or tubes

On 4/5/2021 3:14 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.


Nonetheless, tubeless tires have taken over most applications.
The exceptions are usually cases where rims can't be airtight.

What's the impediment for bicycles? Is it the extreme aspect
ratio of bike tires? Manufacturing tolerances? Rim construction?


Here's my guess: Unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles and Joerg, most
bicyclists are concerned with rolling resistance, whether they know that
or not. That means they would reject a super-thick tire even if it were
more flat proof.

And unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles, flat tires on bikes are pretty
easy to repair on one's own, by the side of the road.

So most bicyclists accept getting the occasional flat and just dealing
with it. When they hear the benefits touted for bike tubeless, they
doubt they're worth adopting a new system. And that's even before they
hear about the detriments, like flats that still occur, general
messiness, etc.

Again, that's my guess. I suppose someone selling bikes could say more
about customer viewpoints.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #13  
Old April 5th 21, 10:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 3,817
Default tubeless or tubes

On Sun, 4 Apr 2021 17:59:54 -0700 (PDT), Mark cleary
wrote:

I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so
much on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought.
I don't flat much so I just do not see the benefit at all and
really so much easier just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority
these days?

Deacon Mark


I don't ride much these days, but when I ride, it's with inner tubes.
For my low end bicycles and minimal riding, I don't see slightly lower
rolling resistance as a worthwhile benefit, especially if it requires
a different rim.

Besides the lower rolling resistance for tubeless, there are other
benefits, detriments, and trade-offs:
https://www.rei.com/learn/expert-advice/tubed-vs-tubeless.html

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #14  
Old April 5th 21, 10:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
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Posts: 729
Default tubeless or tubes

Op maandag 5 april 2021 om 23:14:43 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 4/5/2021 3:14 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.


Nonetheless, tubeless tires have taken over most applications.
The exceptions are usually cases where rims can't be airtight.

What's the impediment for bicycles? Is it the extreme aspect
ratio of bike tires? Manufacturing tolerances? Rim construction?

Here's my guess: Unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles and Joerg, most
bicyclists are concerned with rolling resistance, whether they know that
or not. That means they would reject a super-thick tire even if it were
more flat proof.

And unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles, flat tires on bikes are pretty
easy to repair on one's own, by the side of the road.

So most bicyclists accept getting the occasional flat and just dealing
with it. When they hear the benefits touted for bike tubeless, they
doubt they're worth adopting a new system. And that's even before they
hear about the detriments, like flats that still occur, general
messiness, etc.

Again, that's my guess. I suppose someone selling bikes could say more
about customer viewpoints.


--
- Frank Krygowski



Everyone using tubeless tyres with goop will tell you they are great sealing small leaks and they are. They change their opinion after the first big cut the goop can't seal.

Lou
  #15  
Old April 5th 21, 11:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,626
Default tubeless or tubes

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 2:14:43 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/5/2021 3:14 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.


Nonetheless, tubeless tires have taken over most applications.
The exceptions are usually cases where rims can't be airtight.

What's the impediment for bicycles? Is it the extreme aspect
ratio of bike tires? Manufacturing tolerances? Rim construction?

Here's my guess: Unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles and Joerg, most
bicyclists are concerned with rolling resistance, whether they know that
or not. That means they would reject a super-thick tire even if it were
more flat proof.

And unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles, flat tires on bikes are pretty
easy to repair on one's own, by the side of the road.

So most bicyclists accept getting the occasional flat and just dealing
with it. When they hear the benefits touted for bike tubeless, they
doubt they're worth adopting a new system. And that's even before they
hear about the detriments, like flats that still occur, general
messiness, etc.

Again, that's my guess. I suppose someone selling bikes could say more
about customer viewpoints.


Tubeless is very popular with MTB and CX riders because it allows very low pressures without pinch flats, and with CX, it is still more convenient than tubulars. Specialized dumped road tubeless in two popular wheels in its OE Roval line because of end user difficulties (phrased somewhat differently in the article): https://cyclingtips.com/2020/06/rova...st-clx-wheels/ Whatever benefit there was with rolling resistance, it was far outweighed by issues inherent in the technology which requires more development -- or something.

I regret owning tubeless ready rims (HED Belgiums) because the tire beads weld to the seats -- they have shallow rim beds and are difficult to mount and remove tires. Great wheels but mounting and removing tires is a battle..

-- Jay Beattie.











  #16  
Old April 6th 21, 12:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,233
Default tubeless or tubes

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 11:28:16 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/4/2021 8:59 PM, Mark cleary wrote:
I wonder what most regular cyclist are riding these days. I see so much on tubeless sets up and I have never given it a thought. I don't flat much so I just do not see the benefit at all and really so much easier just putting a tube in. I am I in the minority these days?


I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

The bike industry, including bike magazines, always have to hype
_something_ new. Don't confuse hype with actual benefits or actual
practice.



But, but! It's NEW! It's gotta be better!
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #17  
Old April 6th 21, 01:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
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Posts: 9,367
Default tubeless or tubes

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.


The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

  #18  
Old April 6th 21, 01:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 3,817
Default tubeless or tubes

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.


The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.


You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.



--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #19  
Old April 6th 21, 01:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,044
Default tubeless or tubes

On 4/5/2021 2:30 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 12:14:21 PM UTC-7, bob prohaska wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.

Nonetheless, tubeless tires have taken over most applications.
The exceptions are usually cases where rims can't be airtight.

What's the impediment for bicycles? Is it the extreme aspect
ratio of bike tires? Manufacturing tolerances? Rim construction?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

Bob, Tubeless tires are a real bear to get on and off these days. And they are messy and you have to change the sealant at the very least once a year. And they STILL get serious flats if not minor ones So you have to carry a regular repair kit with a tube etc. There is an advantage to Time Trialists since the tires are lighter and have less rolling resistance. But other than that I see no real advantage that isn't offset by a real disadvantage.


Lighter? A Michelin road tube is 65 grams. Four ounces of
latex (minimum dose)is nearly twice that, plus a heavier
valve assembly and on some rims a heavier rim liner as well.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #20  
Old April 6th 21, 02:01 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,044
Default tubeless or tubes

On 4/5/2021 4:49 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op maandag 5 april 2021 om 23:14:43 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 4/5/2021 3:14 PM, bob prohaska wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

I'm not aware of any of my riding friends using tubeless.


Nonetheless, tubeless tires have taken over most applications.
The exceptions are usually cases where rims can't be airtight.

What's the impediment for bicycles? Is it the extreme aspect
ratio of bike tires? Manufacturing tolerances? Rim construction?

Here's my guess: Unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles and Joerg, most
bicyclists are concerned with rolling resistance, whether they know that
or not. That means they would reject a super-thick tire even if it were
more flat proof.

And unlike cars, trucks and motorcycles, flat tires on bikes are pretty
easy to repair on one's own, by the side of the road.

So most bicyclists accept getting the occasional flat and just dealing
with it. When they hear the benefits touted for bike tubeless, they
doubt they're worth adopting a new system. And that's even before they
hear about the detriments, like flats that still occur, general
messiness, etc.

Again, that's my guess. I suppose someone selling bikes could say more
about customer viewpoints.


--
- Frank Krygowski



Everyone using tubeless tyres with goop will tell you they are great sealing small leaks and they are. They change their opinion after the first big cut the goop can't seal.

Lou

+1

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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