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tubeless or tubes



 
 
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  #21  
Old April 6th 21, 02:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,041
Default tubeless or tubes

On 4/5/2021 7:49 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.


The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.


You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.




On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Ads
  #22  
Old April 6th 21, 02:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bob prohaska
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 94
Default tubeless or tubes

AMuzi wrote:

Lighter? A Michelin road tube is 65 grams. Four ounces of
latex (minimum dose)is nearly twice that, plus a heavier
valve assembly and on some rims a heavier rim liner as well.


But, why latex and rim liners? If the tire fits the rim accurately,
and the rim is airtight, neither is required. Are those two things
infeasible with present manufacturing techniques?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

  #23  
Old April 6th 21, 04:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,816
Default tubeless or tubes

On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 20:06:18 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.


On that style tire, wet the bead set with soapy water or
spray wax, cinch your belt or similar around the tire and
inflate quickly. It will snap onto the seats.


Thanks, but that's not the problem. I have a rope and tourniquet
derangement for doing what you describe. However, I didn't think
about trying soap lube. I'll give that a try.

The problem is that the rim is only 4.5 inches in diameter. The tire
simply will not stretch enough to slip back over the rim. I tried
three steel levers and bent two of them.

I should have a "tire bead jack" somewhere, but can't find it. I
probably loaned it to someone:
"Tire Bead Jack - Installation of tight bike tire when all else fails"
The Kool Stop Tire Bead Jack is a Gamechanger (1:47)
https://www.albes.com/products/kool-stop-tire-bead-jack
I'm not sure it will fit over the rather fat 3.3 inch wide hand truck
tire. I'm also worried about breaking the plastic tool as the hand
truck tire is really stiff. I may need to build something similar out
of scrap metal.

I can post photos if anyone wants to see the problem.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #24  
Old April 6th 21, 04:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,816
Default tubeless or tubes

On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 20:19:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I can post photos if anyone wants to see the problem.


This is almost the exact same hand truck (dolly) that I have:
"How to change flat tire on a moving dolly / Dolly repair/ Dolly Fix"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSDCVgkF3JU (1:36)
However, the tire is a different tread pattern and design. It also
seems far more flexible than mine.

Also, I forgot to mention another advantage of tubeless tires. If you
can't get the bead to set after changing the tire, just fill it with
any kind of explosive gas (butane, propane, natural gas, etc) and
ignite it. The expanding gases will seat the tire on the rim quite
nicely. That doesn't work with an inner tube.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #25  
Old April 6th 21, 04:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,229
Default tubeless or tubes

On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 17:49:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:

On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.


The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.


You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.


I don't see the logic for tubeless tires on a garbage cart. I would
think solid, or foam filled would be better... unless of course you
are running down the street after the garbage truck shouting "Am I too
late?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODEShfdxoR0


2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.

--
Cheers,

John B.

  #26  
Old April 6th 21, 05:10 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,816
Default tubeless or tubes

On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 20:33:00 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 20:19:29 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

I can post photos if anyone wants to see the problem.


This is almost the exact same hand truck (dolly) that I have:
"How to change flat tire on a moving dolly / Dolly repair/ Dolly Fix"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSDCVgkF3JU (1:36)
However, the tire is a different tread pattern and design. It also
seems far more flexible than mine.


Digging some more, these look like they should work:

"How to Mount a Small Tire on Wheel"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVi2qV0cKLg (2:29)
Uses two C-clamps.

"How to mount a small tractor tire with vice grips"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAWH89AgVdA (2:54)

Clever methinks.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #27  
Old April 6th 21, 05:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,816
Default tubeless or tubes

On Tue, 06 Apr 2021 10:39:35 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I don't see the logic for tubeless tires on a garbage cart.


Tubeless is cheaper because there's no inner tubes. I paid $10/ea for
the 4.10 x 3.50 inner tubes. My guess(tm) is that two inner tubes
would have added $2 to the price of a $60 dolly.

I would
think solid, or foam filled would be better...


I borrowed a hand truck that had something in the tires besides air. I
have 50 stairs going up to the house. Going down those stairs, with a
fully loaded 33 gallon trash can required a little care. When I did
it with air filled tires, they sorta bounced down the stairs. With
the borrowed hand truck, it felt like I was going to crack the stair
treads. Air is compressible. Foam, not so compressible. I didn't
break anything but I noticed that many nail heads were sticking out of
the stair treads from the bouncing. That won't happen again because I
replaced most of the nails with deck screws.

unless of course you
are running down the street after the garbage truck shouting "Am I too
late?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODEShfdxoR0


Cute. In the left coast hills, on the US side of the pond, we do have
an appropriately named garbage collection service:
https://www.greenwaste.com/santa-cruz-county/
The green is apparently for greenbacks, not the ecology. I'm cheap
and prefer to haul my refuse to the nearby transfer station in the
back of my Subaru:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/Trash%20tight%20fit.jpg
Three cans sorta fit with the lid inverted. I recycle as much as
possible. My guess(tm) is about 12 trash cans per year.
https://dpw.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/Home/RecyclingTrash/RecyclingandDisposalFacilities.aspx
https://dpw.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/Portals/19/pdfs/recycles/2020-2021%20Santa%20Cruz%20County%20Fee%20Information%2 0Worksheet%20V3.pdf?ver=vZCsHWeR8uSqcTN7IuiF5w%3d% 3d
$12.50 / 32 gallon trash can minus 10% for seniors.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #28  
Old April 6th 21, 06:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,229
Default tubeless or tubes

On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 21:48:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 06 Apr 2021 10:39:35 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I don't see the logic for tubeless tires on a garbage cart.


Tubeless is cheaper because there's no inner tubes. I paid $10/ea for
the 4.10 x 3.50 inner tubes. My guess(tm) is that two inner tubes
would have added $2 to the price of a $60 dolly.

I would
think solid, or foam filled would be better...


I borrowed a hand truck that had something in the tires besides air. I
have 50 stairs going up to the house. Going down those stairs, with a
fully loaded 33 gallon trash can required a little care. When I did
it with air filled tires, they sorta bounced down the stairs. With
the borrowed hand truck, it felt like I was going to crack the stair
treads. Air is compressible. Foam, not so compressible. I didn't
break anything but I noticed that many nail heads were sticking out of
the stair treads from the bouncing. That won't happen again because I
replaced most of the nails with deck screws.

unless of course you
are running down the street after the garbage truck shouting "Am I too
late?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODEShfdxoR0


Cute. In the left coast hills, on the US side of the pond, we do have
an appropriately named garbage collection service:
https://www.greenwaste.com/santa-cruz-county/
The green is apparently for greenbacks, not the ecology. I'm cheap
and prefer to haul my refuse to the nearby transfer station in the
back of my Subaru:
http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/Trash%20tight%20fit.jpg
Three cans sorta fit with the lid inverted. I recycle as much as
possible. My guess(tm) is about 12 trash cans per year.
https://dpw.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/Home/RecyclingTrash/RecyclingandDisposalFacilities.aspx
https://dpw.co.santa-cruz.ca.us/Portals/19/pdfs/recycles/2020-2021%20Santa%20Cruz%20County%20Fee%20Information%2 0Worksheet%20V3.pdf?ver=vZCsHWeR8uSqcTN7IuiF5w%3d% 3d
$12.50 / 32 gallon trash can minus 10% for seniors.



Most of your references won't load, or won't load here, or it is the
wrong day of the year, or something, but I did connect with the
Greenwaste site and as I read it you have to pay to have your garbage
collected?

Here the government, city/Town/whoever collects the garbage and hauls
it off for free. In Bangkok you package it - black garbage bag will
suffice, and set it outside the gate and it vanishes, several mornings
a week. Here in the country, in out housing area, they set plastic 55
gallon drums on the street corners and you carry your garbage/trash
out and put it in the drum.

If I lived 50 steps up in the air I'd build a tram or sell the house
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #29  
Old April 6th 21, 07:18 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
News 2021
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 229
Default tubeless or tubes

On Mon, 05 Apr 2021 21:48:23 -0700, Jeff Liebermann scribed:

On Tue, 06 Apr 2021 10:39:35 +0700, John B.
wrote:

I don't see the logic for tubeless tires on a garbage cart.


Tubeless is cheaper because there's no inner tubes. I paid $10/ea for
the 4.10 x 3.50 inner tubes. My guess(tm) is that two inner tubes would
have added $2 to the price of a $60 dolly.

I would think solid, or foam filled would be better...


I borrowed a hand truck that had something in the tires besides air. I
have 50 stairs going up to the house. Going down those stairs, with a
fully loaded 33 gallon trash can required a little care. When I did it
with air filled tires, they sorta bounced down the stairs. With the
borrowed hand truck, it felt like I was going to crack the stair treads.
Air is compressible. Foam, not so compressible. I didn't break
anything but I noticed that many nail heads were sticking out of the
stair treads from the bouncing. That won't happen again because I
replaced most of the nails with deck screws.


Erk to 50 stairs.
You could try a stair climbing truck if you want to remove the bounce,
but the trade off is that there is no resting going down or up. It just
keeps going unless you hold it back.
  #30  
Old April 6th 21, 07:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,201
Default tubeless or tubes

On Monday, April 5, 2021 at 8:49:46 p.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Mon, 5 Apr 2021 17:29:26 -0700, sms
wrote:
On 4/5/2021 2:47 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

snip

I tried to check online for recent sales history for bicycle inner
tubes. If there was a precipitous drop in inner tube sales, that
would indicate that tubeless was taking over. However, with the
pandemic and subsequent shortages, the few numbers I could find are
probably distorted. You might check with your LBS and ask about
relative bicycle sales with inner tube vs tubeless. That might give
you a clue on trends and whether you're a minority member.


The two things that draw some cyclists to tubeless are the expense and
the inconvenience.

You must be a member of the CCC (Cynical Cycling Club).

Marginally related tube drivel:

1. I have an Ace Hardware garbage can hand truck with tubeless tires.
They leak because the rims were painted. Leaving it outdoors for a
while caused water to collect between the painted rim and the tire,
which promptly rusted. The rust was uneven, so the tires leaked air.
So, I bought two inner tubes for the tires. I won't go through the
details, but removing the tires so that they straddle one edge of the
rim, was almost impossible. I managed to get one tire off, and insert
the inner tube. However, I can't get the tire back onto the rim.
Tubeless hand truck tires are evil.

2. Last years CZU fire and subsequent wind storm(s) gave a big boost
to the home repair business. One of the side effects is the various
amateur and professional contractors tend to leave nails all over the
road. This year, I picked up a nail in the tread, which I
successfully plugged on my 3rd try. I expect to find more nails in my
tires until after the construction is done. Yes, we sweep the road
with a magnetic pickup tool, but the nails are good at hiding. Looking
at the damage, I'm fairly sure that I would not have had a problem if
my tire had an inner tube.

3. I'm on my last Nashbar leaky bicycle inner tube. I started with 6
cheap tubes, all of which have leaked to varying degrees. I'll soon
need to make a decision as to whether to buy some more cheap tubes,
some expensive better tubes, Slime Sealant, or go tubeless with
sealant. Since I'm cheap, it will probably more cheap leaky tubes.
--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558


Aren't a lot of roofing nails an aluminium alloy and therefore not magnetic?

Cheers
 




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