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Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 19th 10, 11:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bicycle_disciple
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 247
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

RBT,

Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story : http://bit.ly/bauy8g

In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see how
acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user told me
all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away the road
salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this much damage
to a chain? (sarcastic tone)

Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of today's
high performance chains.
Ads
  #2  
Old February 20th 10, 12:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 881
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

Op 19-2-2010 23:06, bicycle_disciple schreef:
RBT,

Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story : http://bit.ly/bauy8g

In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see how
acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user told me
all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away the road
salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this much damage
to a chain? (sarcastic tone)

Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of today's
high performance chains.



It is no cleaning issue. Shimano has/had some problems with their
chains. They all fail in that manner. I don't know if they sort it out
by now. Buy Campy chains ;-)

Lou
  #3  
Old February 20th 10, 12:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

On 19 Feb, 22:06, bicycle_disciple wrote:
RBT,

Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story :http://bit.ly/bauy8g

In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. *Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see how
acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user told me
all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away the road
salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this much damage
to a chain? (sarcastic tone)


Possibly do some damage if the soap was really soda and it was left in
solution for a couple of days. The correct application will be
washing-up detergent solution as it is a little acidic and will help
to nuetralise the salt. Then put it in hot oil and boil off the
water.


Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of today's
high performance chains.


I shouldn't really, iI wont use them.

  #4  
Old February 20th 10, 12:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mike Jacoubowsky
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,972
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

"bicycle_disciple" wrote in message
...
RBT,

Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story : http://bit.ly/bauy8g

In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see how
acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user told me
all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away the road
salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this much damage
to a chain? (sarcastic tone)

Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of today's
high performance chains.


OK, we sell maybe 100 Shimano 10-speed chains/month. Probably most of them
Ultegra. And over the past two years, I've seen maybe two chains fail in the
manner shown in the photo (and never seen a chain with multiple cracks, but
can't be sure they weren't there because we would be looking primarily at
the link that failed and could have missed others).

Whatever is going on, it's not universal. The Shimano warning cited says not
to use an acid or alkali-based cleaning agent, and yet I presume that's what
I've been using for some time (a diluted mix of citrus-based cleaner and
extremely-hot water, put into a wide-mouth sports drink bottle, and shaken,
not stirred). No issues for me.

I would be checking the drivetrain very carefully for worn & twisted teeth,
and would like to know more about the type of riding and manner in which the
person shifts. But I don't think there's a general issue with these chains
or it would have shown up in the shop many, many times. 10-speed (10 in the
back) road bikes are the majority of our business.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

  #5  
Old February 20th 10, 12:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Nate Nagel[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,872
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

On 02/19/2010 05:06 PM, bicycle_disciple wrote:
RBT,

Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story : http://bit.ly/bauy8g

In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see how
acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user told me
all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away the road
salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this much damage
to a chain? (sarcastic tone)

Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of today's
high performance chains.


How mucky do the roads have to be where having cleaned a chain already
by 200km is not inappropriate?

I mean, I'm pretty much a neat freak, but I'd have to be riding on
salted roads every day to even contemplate that. Normally I'd just wipe
down and squirt some loob on it and call it good.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  #6  
Old February 20th 10, 01:33 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,945
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

In article
,
bicycle_disciple wrote:

RBT,

Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story : http://bit.ly/bauy8g

In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see
how acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user
told me all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away
the road salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this
much damage to a chain? (sarcastic tone)

Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of
today's high performance chains.


He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named-Because-He-Posted-Anonymously stated that
Simple Green could weaken bike chains and cause them to crack at the
outer plate hole for the pins. IIRC the mechanism was hydrogen
embrittlement. I have no way of knowing if this was factually correct
or was hot air (hot electrons?).

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/...ical-qa-with-l
ennard-zinn-not-so-simple-green-2_9216

Simple Green seems to claim their "Extreme Simple Green" product
protects against hydrogen embrittlement:

http://industrial.simplegreen.com/in...ts_extreme.php

"Extreme Simple Greenšs safety upon aircraft materials and precision
cleaning surfaces comes from a combination of proven anti-corrosion
agents. A time tested coupling agent allows these to work together to
battle corrosion and hydrogen embrittlement. These same qualities make
Extreme Simple Green safe to put through pressure washing equipment,
rack wash systems, dip tanks and parts washers, without any equipment
damage."

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."
  #7  
Old February 20th 10, 01:35 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,945
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

In article
,
bicycle_disciple wrote:

Just wondering what you think of today's high performance chains.


Also, they are ridiculously overpriced. $50-75 for a *bike chain*?!?
$15 is overpriced already, but bike component marketers have figured out
that the bike-buying public wants to *look* tech savvy rather than *be*
tech savvy, so they'll buy overpriced goods with lots of technoblather
on the packaging.

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."
  #8  
Old February 20th 10, 02:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,049
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

On 19 Feb, 23:49, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 02/19/2010 05:06 PM, bicycle_disciple wrote:



RBT,


Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story :http://bit.ly/bauy8g


In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. *Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see how
acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user told me
all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away the road
salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this much damage
to a chain? (sarcastic tone)


Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of today's
high performance chains.


How mucky do the roads have to be where having cleaned a chain already
by 200km is not inappropriate?

I mean, I'm pretty much a neat freak, but I'd have to be riding on
salted roads every day to even contemplate that. *Normally I'd just wipe
down and squirt some loob on it and call it good.


Use grease in your chain and dont worry until it squeaks, then whip it
off and put on a ready cleaned and greased chain. The grease has to be
around the pin and melting it in is an effective method of it getting
there. Possibly petroleum jelly may be good in very cold conditions.
  #9  
Old February 20th 10, 08:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bicycle_disciple
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 247
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

On Feb 19, 7:03*pm, Jobst Brandt wrote:
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. *(well some are
defensible). *Link to story :http://bit.ly/bauy8g
In brief: A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. *Notice the pictures of the crack formations
on the paper-thin links. *The debate is on whether the solvent he
used to clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. *While I
can see how acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure
the user told me all he used was some soap and plain hot water to
wash away the road salt of the wintry Dutch roads. *Could this
combo do this much damage to a chain?
Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. *Just wondering what you think of
today's high performance chains.

OK, we sell maybe 100 Shimano 10-speed chains/month. *Probably most
of them Ultegra. *And over the past two years, I've seen maybe two
chains fail in the manner shown in the photo (and never seen a chain
with multiple cracks, but can't be sure they weren't there because
we would be looking primarily at the link that failed and could have
missed others).
Whatever is going on, it's not universal. *The Shimano warning cited
says not to use an acid or alkali-based cleaning agent, and yet I
presume that's what I've been using for some time (a diluted mix of
citrus-based cleaner and extremely-hot water, put into a wide-mouth
sports drink bottle, and shaken, not stirred). *No issues for me.
I would be checking the drivetrain very carefully for worn & twisted
teeth, and would like to know more about the type of riding and
manner in which the person shifts. *But I don't think there's a
general issue with these chains or it would have shown up in the
shop many, many times. *10-speed (10 in the back) road bikes are the
majority of our business.


My experience years ago when Regina was leaving the chain business,
someone offered me a stack of chains in those small cardboard boxes.
I used one that cracked and failed even though it was the old style
with a small pin over-stand on both sides, old roller width and side
plate thickness... old heavy derailleur chains of the kind they made
for many years reliably.

I inspected more of these chains before using them and found they all
had crack initiation, probably from improper heat treatment or an
improper alloy. *In any event, that was my experience with chain
failure and I haven't had any since with Shimano chains, but then I
don't use flush side narrow chains for my 7-speed gear clusters.

Jobst Brandt


Jobst,

Thanks for replying. Do you know what heat treatment protocols chains
in specific receive? There seems to be this characteristic failure
pattern that a majority of people have been noticing, as was shown in
the post. http://bit.ly/bauy8g

-Ron
"Bicycle Disciple"
  #10  
Old February 20th 10, 08:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
bicycle_disciple
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 247
Default Shimano Ultegra Chain Failure

On Feb 19, 7:33*pm, Tim McNamara wrote:
In article
,



*bicycle_disciple wrote:
RBT,


Where else to ask than the sensible folks here.. (well some are def
sensible). Link to story :http://bit.ly/bauy8g


In brief : A man broke two Ultegra chains over the course of 700 and
200 kms respectively. *Notice the pictures of the crack formations on
the paper-thin links. The debate is on whether the solvent he used to
clean the chain had a role to play in the failure. While I can see
how acidic solvents may eat up the chain, I'm pretty sure the user
told me all he used was some soap and plain hot water to wash away
the road salt of the wintry Dutch roads. Could this combo do this
much damage to a chain? (sarcastic tone)


Is this failure related to cleaning or to a possibly flawed heat
treatment during manufacture. Just wondering what you think of
today's high performance chains.


He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named-Because-He-Posted-Anonymously stated that
Simple Green could weaken bike chains and cause them to crack at the
outer plate hole for the pins. *IIRC the mechanism was hydrogen
embrittlement. *I have no way of knowing if this was factually correct
or was hot air (hot electrons?).

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/...ical-qa-with-l
ennard-zinn-not-so-simple-green-2_9216

Simple Green seems to claim their "Extreme Simple Green" product
protects against hydrogen embrittlement:

http://industrial.simplegreen.com/in...ts_extreme.php

"Extreme Simple Greenšs safety upon aircraft materials and precision
cleaning surfaces comes from a combination of proven anti-corrosion
agents. A time tested coupling agent allows these to work together to
battle corrosion and hydrogen embrittlement. These same qualities make
Extreme Simple Green safe to put through pressure washing equipment,
rack wash systems, dip tanks and parts washers, without any equipment
damage."

--
"I wear the cheese, it does not wear me."


What I don't get it is that user never claimed he used Simple Green.
Interesting comment from you, nevertheless. But to make me believe
that a new chain failed due to cleaning issues in 2 days time will
require a lot more, I suppose.
 




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