Bus racks

On 2018-08-29 15:16, sms wrote:
On 8/29/2018 10:23 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 08:47, sms wrote:
On 8/29/2018 7:45 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

Sacramento Transit is suffering a substantial decline in ridership. If
they can't catch more split-commute folks (car-transit and
bike-transit) they'll have serious budget problems soon. Observations:

This is an issue nationwide. There are multiple causes:

1. Ride-sharing services like Uber and Lyft are heavily subsidized by
investors. When you have two or three passengers, an Uber or Lyft ride
is often no more expensive than mass transit, especially in cities where
the distances are not great.


That's a problem but competition is good. For example, if transit
agencies gave up this nonsensical requirement of paying a new fare for
every leg (transfer) then public transit would beat Uber or Lyft.
Three older adults can hardly ride an Uber for $3.75, plus they don't
have to tip the train conductor or bus driver. They should look at how
the airlines do it. You pay one fare from A to B no matter how many
plane changes are involved.

On SF Muni, one fare is good for 90 minutes (really longer for cash fares)

On Santa Clara County VTA they brought back free transfers for two
hours, if you use electronic payment.


Sacramento did that as well, 90 minutes for electronic fare which I use
via a Connect Card. Unfortunately only a 6-month promotion which
expired. Our local agency (El Dorado Transit) never had free transfers
AFAIK.


Investors subsidizing Uber and Lyft are losing billions of dollars while
taking transit riders away from public transit, which costs taxpayers
additional money.


They are trying the Amazon method (which worked in their case). That
free market and the munis must weather that storm. If they can't in the
long run then maybe they aren't competitive as a transport business.


That is poor planning on the part of the transit agency. They need to
change with the market and shift routes to where potential riders live
or move. With buses that is not rocket science.

The riders that were displaced are far away and transit doesn't work for
them anymore. So they drive. At $40 million/mile (for above ground rail)
there will be no light-rail trains out to where they live now. No point
in buses since they are way too slow due to traffic congestion.

Transit agencies should hold surveys to find out why people do not ride.

They already know why. No more surveys are necessary.


Then why did they do nothing about it? We had a similar effect here.
Sacramento and West Sacramento (a separate town on the other side of the
river) are gentrifying so people, especially large families, moved south
to places such as Elk Grove. The transit agency saw that and made sure
they got routes there.

The one thing they completely blew: No public transport to the airport
unless you switch to a bus from an out-of-county agency where
connections can be iffy. So everyone drives to the airport.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 8/29/2018 6:16 PM, sms wrote:
On 8/29/2018 10:23 AM, Joerg wrote:

That is poor planning on the part of the transit agency. They need to
change with the market and shift routes to where potential riders live
or move. With buses that is not rocket science.

The riders that were displaced are far away and transit doesn't work for
them anymore. So they drive. At $40 million/mile (for above ground rail)
there will be no light-rail trains out to where they live now. No point
in buses since they are way too slow due to traffic congestion.

Some countries have what's called "BRT" or "bus rapid transit." As I
understand it, things like dedicated bus lanes and legal precedence to
buses right-of-way speed things up considerably, so they compete with
light rail. They typically take steps to speed loading and unloading at
stops (like entries requiring no stairs, and pre-paying of fares).

But I don't know if I've had any experience with such a system. I rode
some buses in Europe, but I don't remember the details, to say if they
qualify for BRT designation.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-08-29 16:25, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 12:03:01 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-29 11:16, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 2:02 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 10:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 1:29 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 09:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 10:45 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-28 21:42, John B. Slocomb wrote:

One might ask, "why public transportation" when according to current
figures the average U.S. family owns 1.968 autos?


Typically because they want get to and from work faster. I do it out
of environmental consciousness and it increases my cycling range. So
far only light rail because the bus racks won't accommodate modern
MTB.

Y'know, when we bought our _house_, one criterion was that it had to
work for transportation by bike.

I think if I were buying a _bike_, I'd make sure it worked for
transportation by bike. That would include fitting a bus rack, if
that
were part of my needs.


No, first and foremost it has to work on the trails. I tried 26" bikes
and they do not feel comfortable. DH versions do but they won't fit
the bus racks either. 29" did feel great and 27-1/2" would as well but
those weren't popular back when I bought my MTB. 27-1/2" won't fit the
bus racks either. So, naturally, I bought a 29" MTB.

And yet, so many people find a way...


In our area those are typically the homeless. They have simple 26"
bikes and AFAIK ride for free, so no revenue.

So the homeless are figuring it out, but you can't? Maybe if you asked
them for lessons, they could help you? ;-)


It's simple: They ride between bus stops and their illegal camp sites.
They do not ride rough singletrack for tens of miles like I do. I saw
the first homeless on a 29er around a couple years ago, not sure if he
actually paid for that bike ...

I'm not sure that I understand your statement. You say that you ride
tens of miles but you need to load your bike on a bus? Does this mean
that you only ride the down hill portion of the trail? Take the bus to
the top of the hill and coast down?

A real cyclist!


When do you start reading more comprehensively and when do you stop
these silly premature conclusions?

I have written before that I sometimes ride with cyclists who aren't as
powerful. This particular ride was with a 72 year old who is a bit
insecure at high speeds and on singletrack. Yet he also enjoys riding
with others, so we do that from time to time. He is a great guy. There
are also people who simply can't or won't do a 40+ mile ride.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-08-29 16:18, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 07:45:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-28 21:42, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:15:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/28/2018 9:01 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:49:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/28/2018 7:27 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 07:43:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-27 18:13, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:43:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-27 16:20, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 5:49:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-27 13:53, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Reading the thread about bus racks being to short for some bicycles
got me to thinking about how the bicycle is supported in the rack.
When I worked in bicycle shops we called those bicycle parking racks
with the two low hoops to hold the wheels "wheel benders" as we often
had wheel repairs that were caused by the sideways force on the
wheels. I wonder if bus racks have the same problem at times if that
front wheel hook is not supporting the bicycle from swaying a bit
side to side.


The wheel hook is what is supposed to prevent it from swaying. A wheel
itself can't. Just imagine: While the racks on our buses are barely wide
enough to squeeze in my 2.25" wide rear tire a 25mm road bike tire would
make the bike almost fall over, considering that the slot is just around
4" deep. Some people who still run 23mm tires or even less would also
risk marring their rims badly when the sides of the rims would bang
against the steel tube of the rack rail all the time. You'd likely feel
the damage immediately the first time you use the rim brakes.

Another detail I noticed: The handlebar end of my MTB was very close to
the windshield of the bus. Scary. I watched it on the freeway and while
the bike "came closer" it didn't quite touch glass. Despite the
panniers. That only worked because I had shortened the handlebar
significantly a few months after I bought the MTB.

What would happen if the handlebar touched the glass?


Possibly a crack. Since it is curved glass that would cause an expensive
repair and loss of service costs while the bus is in the shop.

One can only speculate. Generally speaking, if you break someone's
window, you get to pay for it, in some manner.


Not if the rack was sub-par and caused the event.

You mean if the bus company is nice enough to install bicycle racks
that, as you previously wrote, fit many bicycles and your bicycle
doesn't fit so a window gets broken it is the bus company's fault?

Logically then it is to the bus company's advantage to get rid of the
bicycle racks and thus avoid the expense of broken windows.

It's a non-issue, important only in Joerg's mind. If the bus company had
a problem with broken windshields, they'd have fixed the racks or
protected the windshields long ago.

One might also speculate on whether the majority of the bus riders
actually care whether bicycle racks are installed, or not.


Sacramento Transit seems to think that two bicycle carriers
per bus are adequate. This may miss the larger trend:

https://www.cato.org/publications/po...sit-apocalypse


Sacramento Transit is suffering a substantial decline in ridership. If
they can't catch more split-commute folks (car-transit and bike-transit)
they'll have serious budget problems soon. Observations:

Actually they have a budget problem already. The public transportation
systems in the U.S. are subsidized and all seem to lose money. The New
York transportation system loses about $.75/passenger while the
Virginia HRT losses nearly 7 dollars a passenger.
https://bit.ly/2HiRxTs

Which, given that the average U.S. family owns 1.9 autos seem a
foolish waste of money at one end of the spectrum, or the other.


Yeah, you'd simply throw in the towel instead of trying to fix it.
Right. That is not the modus operandi I am accustomed to as an engineer.
First I will try to find out what's wrong and whether it can be fixed or
not.

[...]


One might ask, "why public transportation" when according to current
figures the average U.S. family owns 1.968 autos?


Typically because they want get to and from work faster. I do it out of
environmental consciousness and it increases my cycling range. So far
only light rail because the bus racks won't accommodate modern MTB. Lots
of cyclists in my area use their pickup trucks instead. The
environmentally worst method is the two-location shuttle method.

Silly boy. If carrying your bicycle in a pickup causes environmental
damage just ride the bicycle.


And how about the 72 year old accompanying me who cannot hold it at
17-18mph for hours? Just leave him behind on the trail?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 8/29/2018 7:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 15:17, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 10:00:21 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 09:22, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 7:22:25 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
snip

That's what our power company PG&E pulled off. Instead of
fixing fire danger prone overhead wiring they announced
they'll simply cut power if there is high wind in summer.
It is up to the political leaders to pull the charter if
such behavior goes too far.


I believe that in most, if not all, cases the generating
plants are the property of the electric company. If the local
government were to "cancel their contract" where would you
get electricity from?

Or do you propose that the local government, in some manner,
perhaps by a tax increase, purchase the generating plants?


It's about the distribution, not the plant. Utilities in
America run on the cost-plus basis which means carte blanche.
They could let them run the power plants that way but allow
competition in the distribution. Even Germany did that which,
compared to a the US, is much less capitalist.

Rate-setting is not carte blanche.Â* It is the opposite of carte
blanche.Â* An unregulated industry would mean all the remote
moonscape towns you think are quaint would not get power because
there is no market. The reason we got the rural electrification
program, TVA, Bonneville, etc. was exactly because private
industry wanted no part of it or the project was simply too big.


It is carte blanche. Cost-plus means the utility can rack up any
amount of cost, knowing they will always get x percent profit on
top of that. I have seen the same behavior in government work.

Costs must be "prudent," and costs that are excessive or unnecessary
are disallowed. Utilities are entitled to a fair return but cannot
price gouge, cannot gold-plate the power plant, etc., etc.Â* Well
regulated industries produce reasonable rates and reasonable returns,
and around here, the CUB rides herd on the rate-making process, as do
the huge industrial power users.

Remember Enron? California electricity deregulation? How's that
deregulation thing working for you?


That's what Governor Gray Davis screwed up, creating a big new
bureacracy and not allowing long-term contract. That was stupid and
needless to say, resulted in blackouts. We called the Gray-Outs in his
"honor".


Texas has a species of deregulation, but even it is not free market.


You have choice there and thus they have WAY better rates than we do.

https://www.texaselectricityratings....ctricity-rates

Multiply the TX rates by three and you get the CA rates.


Free market is cable TV, and look how that's working out.


It's not free, it's chartered just like electricity. Out here only
Comcast/Xfinity is allowed to lay cable TV. However, one is free not to
use it. Our family doesn't use it. This is slightly different with
electricity.


Also, how would you propose competition in distribution when the
distribution lines are owned by the incumbent provider?Â* More
wires? Who in their right mind would shell out the cash for a
parallel distribution system? And if there were license
agreements or shared infrastructure, then you would still have an
entity responsible for repairs -- and undoubtedly someone you
thought was incompetent or unworthy to send electricity to your
home.Â* There will always be someone who has to fix the broken
****. PG&E probably has as much competence as anyone when it
comes to keeping lines repaired.


It does but it does not deliver at an adequate price. We have among
the highest electricity costs in the nation and not a very reliable
grid anymore. Of course, part of it are nonsensical political
mandates but a utility is supposed to stand up stronger against
those. Of course, in a cost-plus deal it doesn't really matter to
them or is actually beneficial to them because x percent gueranteed
profit of a high total is more than x percent of a lower total.


... Try this free market electrical distribution system:
https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015...8699426875.jpg





In many countries that _is_ the work of a government agency or a monopoly.





Of course once furnishing electricity became the
responsibility of the local government it would become a
political factor, like road maintenance?


Everything is a political factor these days.


As I said it is rather easy to build a bike rack that fits
contemporary bikes.

But, according to your posts, the racks are already installed
so you are talking about replacing them with a larger rack?
Perhaps an increase in fare for cyclists until the new racks
are paid for?


No, I already explained that. When a design flaw is discovered
they should try to get the vendor to perform the corrections
for free. Munis have enough clout to tell them that else the
biz in their direction could shrivel up. That's a good
motivator. Competition can be a wonderful factor. Old American
saying: If you don't take care of your customer someone else
will.

And yet in Portland, the private bus line went bankrupt -- along
with the private trolley line. That's how we ended up with
TriMet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_City_Transit


Depends on the company. Our waste collection is done by a private
entity. That runs cheaper, more reliably and more profitably than
the typical municipal deal.

You're changing subjects.Â* Show me one private mass transit company.


That's easy:

https://www.citylab.com/transportati...k-so-well/389/


Is that enough "mass"?

In Germany I used a lot of private transit buses and trains and it
worked well. They were often cleaner than those of the munis.
Unfortunately I can't find useful stuff in English from more recent
times, just in German:

https://www.handelsblatt.com/unterne...7ufYbSq232-ap5


This kind of sums it up, quote "Die Konkurrenten fahren der Deutschen
Bahn davon. 33 Prozent der Leistung im Nahverkehr auf der Schiene werden
in diesem Jahr durch Züge von Abellio, Keolis & Co. gefahren" which
translates into "The [private] competition is pulling away from the
[government-owned] German Railroad. 33 percent of the passenger load in
local rail transit this year will be handled by Abellio, Keolis & Co". I
added comments in square brackets because most readers here won't know
which is private and which is publicly owned.

This is one of the coolest private transit companies where you can ride
a really classic bus if you get a group together:

https://www.svg-busreisen.de/die-svg/ueber-uns/die-svg/
https://www.svg-busreisen.de/die-svg...ward-oldiebus/

They also run the school buses in that area. Sorry, they also have no
site in English. If you want to decipher something let me know.

Smaller ones in the US:

https://www.ctpost.com/local/article...r-12627172.php


Long story short we must broaden our horizon and look across the fence,
to other countries.

I don't know about the German links, of course. But the one in Florida
seems to rely on picking two super-desirable end links and providing
expensive, faster, no-stop service between them.

In short, it's not providing the same service as the public line; it's
cherry picking. And if the public line decided to do extra runs based on
the same model, in direct competition, I imagine the private line would
go bankrupt.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/29/2018 7:39 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:18, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 07:45:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-28 21:42, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:15:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/28/2018 9:01 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:49:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/28/2018 7:27 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 07:43:58 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2018-08-27 18:13, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:43:40 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2018-08-27 16:20, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 5:49:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-27 13:53, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Reading the thread about bus racks being to short for some
bicycles
got me to thinking about how the bicycle is supported in
the rack.
When I worked in bicycle shops we called those bicycle
parking racks
with the two low hoops to hold the wheels "wheel benders"
as we often
had wheel repairs that were caused by the sideways force
on the
wheels. I wonder if bus racks have the same problem at
times if that
front wheel hook is not supporting the bicycle from
swaying a bit
side to side.


The wheel hook is what is supposed to prevent it from
swaying. A wheel
itself can't. Just imagine: While the racks on our buses
are barely wide
enough to squeeze in my 2.25" wide rear tire a 25mm road
bike tire would
make the bike almost fall over, considering that the slot
is just around
4" deep. Some people who still run 23mm tires or even less
would also
risk marring their rims badly when the sides of the rims
would bang
against the steel tube of the rack rail all the time. You'd
likely feel
the damage immediately the first time you use the rim brakes.

Another detail I noticed: The handlebar end of my MTB was
very close to
the windshield of the bus. Scary. I watched it on the
freeway and while
the bike "came closer" it didn't quite touch glass. Despite
the
panniers. That only worked because I had shortened the
handlebar
significantly a few months after I bought the MTB.

What would happen if the handlebar touched the glass?


Possibly a crack. Since it is curved glass that would cause
an expensive
repair and loss of service costs while the bus is in the shop.

One can only speculate. Generally speaking, if you break
someone's
window, you get to pay for it, in some manner.


Not if the rack was sub-par and caused the event.

You mean if the bus company is nice enough to install bicycle racks
that, as you previously wrote, fit many bicycles and your bicycle
doesn't fit so a window gets broken it is the bus company's fault?

Logically then it is to the bus company's advantage to get rid
of the
bicycle racks and thus avoid the expense of broken windows.

It's a non-issue, important only in Joerg's mind. If the bus
company had
a problem with broken windshields, they'd have fixed the racks or
protected the windshields long ago.

One might also speculate on whether the majority of the bus riders
actually care whether bicycle racks are installed, or not.


Sacramento Transit seems to think that two bicycle carriers
per bus are adequate. This may miss the larger trend:

https://www.cato.org/publications/po...sit-apocalypse



Sacramento Transit is suffering a substantial decline in ridership. If
they can't catch more split-commute folks (car-transit and bike-transit)
they'll have serious budget problems soon. Observations:

Actually they have a budget problem already. The public transportation
systems in the U.S. are subsidized and all seem to lose money. The New
York transportation system loses about $.75/passenger while the
Virginia HRT losses nearly 7 dollars a passenger.
https://bit.ly/2HiRxTs

Which, given that the average U.S. family owns 1.9 autos seem a
foolish waste of money at one end of the spectrum, or the other.


Yeah, you'd simply throw in the towel instead of trying to fix it.
Right. That is not the modus operandi I am accustomed to as an engineer.
First I will try to find out what's wrong and whether it can be fixed or
not.

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the problem is
the detail design of the bike racks.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2018-08-29 16:50, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 7:16 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 15:17, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


You're changing subjects. Show me one private mass transit company.


That's easy:

https://www.citylab.com/transportati...k-so-well/389/


Is that enough "mass"?

In Germany I used a lot of private transit buses and trains and it
worked well. They were often cleaner than those of the munis.
Unfortunately I can't find useful stuff in English from more recent
times, just in German:

https://www.handelsblatt.com/unterne...7ufYbSq232-ap5


This kind of sums it up, quote "Die Konkurrenten fahren der Deutschen
Bahn davon. 33 Prozent der Leistung im Nahverkehr auf der Schiene
werden in diesem Jahr durch Züge von Abellio, Keolis & Co. gefahren"
which translates into "The [private] competition is pulling away from
the [government-owned] German Railroad. 33 percent of the passenger
load in local rail transit this year will be handled by Abellio,
Keolis & Co". I added comments in square brackets because most readers
here won't know which is private and which is publicly owned.

This is one of the coolest private transit companies where you can
ride a really classic bus if you get a group together:

https://www.svg-busreisen.de/die-svg/ueber-uns/die-svg/
https://www.svg-busreisen.de/die-svg...ward-oldiebus/

They also run the school buses in that area. Sorry, they also have no
site in English. If you want to decipher something let me know.

Smaller ones in the US:

https://www.ctpost.com/local/article...r-12627172.php


Long story short we must broaden our horizon and look across the
fence, to other countries.

I don't know about the German links, of course. But the one in Florida
seems to rely on picking two super-desirable end links and providing
expensive, faster, no-stop service between them.

In short, it's not providing the same service as the public line; it's
cherry picking. And if the public line decided to do extra runs based on
the same model, in direct competition, I imagine the private line would
go bankrupt.


The German ones are covering local areas just like munis here do. When I
was a kid private transit was a normal thing. Only after we moved into
larger cities (had to, didn't enjoy it) did I ride muni transport.
Pretty soon I switched to using mainly the bicycle even for longhaul
routes. Part of the reason was that the muni just didn't come when the
snow and ice situation got too bad. I was sometimes left stranded while
my bicycle never questioned the weather.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2018-08-29 16:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2018 7:39 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:18, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 07:45:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-28 21:42, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:15:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/28/2018 9:01 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:49:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/28/2018 7:27 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 07:43:58 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2018-08-27 18:13, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:43:40 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2018-08-27 16:20, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 5:49:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-27 13:53, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Reading the thread about bus racks being to short for
some bicycles
got me to thinking about how the bicycle is supported in
the rack.
When I worked in bicycle shops we called those bicycle
parking racks
with the two low hoops to hold the wheels "wheel benders"
as we often
had wheel repairs that were caused by the sideways force
on the
wheels. I wonder if bus racks have the same problem at
times if that
front wheel hook is not supporting the bicycle from
swaying a bit
side to side.


The wheel hook is what is supposed to prevent it from
swaying. A wheel
itself can't. Just imagine: While the racks on our buses
are barely wide
enough to squeeze in my 2.25" wide rear tire a 25mm road
bike tire would
make the bike almost fall over, considering that the slot
is just around
4" deep. Some people who still run 23mm tires or even less
would also
risk marring their rims badly when the sides of the rims
would bang
against the steel tube of the rack rail all the time.
You'd likely feel
the damage immediately the first time you use the rim brakes.

Another detail I noticed: The handlebar end of my MTB was
very close to
the windshield of the bus. Scary. I watched it on the
freeway and while
the bike "came closer" it didn't quite touch glass.
Despite the
panniers. That only worked because I had shortened the
handlebar
significantly a few months after I bought the MTB.

What would happen if the handlebar touched the glass?


Possibly a crack. Since it is curved glass that would cause
an expensive
repair and loss of service costs while the bus is in the shop.

One can only speculate. Generally speaking, if you break
someone's
window, you get to pay for it, in some manner.


Not if the rack was sub-par and caused the event.

You mean if the bus company is nice enough to install bicycle
racks
that, as you previously wrote, fit many bicycles and your bicycle
doesn't fit so a window gets broken it is the bus company's fault?

Logically then it is to the bus company's advantage to get rid
of the
bicycle racks and thus avoid the expense of broken windows.

It's a non-issue, important only in Joerg's mind. If the bus
company had
a problem with broken windshields, they'd have fixed the racks or
protected the windshields long ago.

One might also speculate on whether the majority of the bus riders
actually care whether bicycle racks are installed, or not.


Sacramento Transit seems to think that two bicycle carriers
per bus are adequate. This may miss the larger trend:

https://www.cato.org/publications/po...sit-apocalypse



Sacramento Transit is suffering a substantial decline in ridership. If
they can't catch more split-commute folks (car-transit and
bike-transit)
they'll have serious budget problems soon. Observations:

Actually they have a budget problem already. The public transportation
systems in the U.S. are subsidized and all seem to lose money. The New
York transportation system loses about $.75/passenger while the
Virginia HRT losses nearly 7 dollars a passenger.
https://bit.ly/2HiRxTs

Which, given that the average U.S. family owns 1.9 autos seem a
foolish waste of money at one end of the spectrum, or the other.


Yeah, you'd simply throw in the towel instead of trying to fix it.
Right. That is not the modus operandi I am accustomed to as an
engineer. First I will try to find out what's wrong and whether it can
be fixed or not.

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the problem is
the detail design of the bike racks.


That is one of the (many) details. And yes, that does need fixing. Else
people will keep using their pickup trucks.

Priority number one is getting a hand on unruly passengers and safety.
Even if it's just perceived safety. I don't get scared by a bum
screaming profanities but most others do.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 16:39:36 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-29 16:18, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 07:45:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-28 21:42, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:15:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/28/2018 9:01 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:49:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/28/2018 7:27 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 07:43:58 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-27 18:13, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:43:40 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-27 16:20, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 5:49:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-27 13:53, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Reading the thread about bus racks being to short for some bicycles
got me to thinking about how the bicycle is supported in the rack.
When I worked in bicycle shops we called those bicycle parking racks
with the two low hoops to hold the wheels "wheel benders" as we often
had wheel repairs that were caused by the sideways force on the
wheels. I wonder if bus racks have the same problem at times if that
front wheel hook is not supporting the bicycle from swaying a bit
side to side.


The wheel hook is what is supposed to prevent it from swaying. A wheel
itself can't. Just imagine: While the racks on our buses are barely wide
enough to squeeze in my 2.25" wide rear tire a 25mm road bike tire would
make the bike almost fall over, considering that the slot is just around
4" deep. Some people who still run 23mm tires or even less would also
risk marring their rims badly when the sides of the rims would bang
against the steel tube of the rack rail all the time. You'd likely feel
the damage immediately the first time you use the rim brakes.

Another detail I noticed: The handlebar end of my MTB was very close to
the windshield of the bus. Scary. I watched it on the freeway and while
the bike "came closer" it didn't quite touch glass. Despite the
panniers. That only worked because I had shortened the handlebar
significantly a few months after I bought the MTB.

What would happen if the handlebar touched the glass?


Possibly a crack. Since it is curved glass that would cause an expensive
repair and loss of service costs while the bus is in the shop.

One can only speculate. Generally speaking, if you break someone's
window, you get to pay for it, in some manner.


Not if the rack was sub-par and caused the event.

You mean if the bus company is nice enough to install bicycle racks
that, as you previously wrote, fit many bicycles and your bicycle
doesn't fit so a window gets broken it is the bus company's fault?

Logically then it is to the bus company's advantage to get rid of the
bicycle racks and thus avoid the expense of broken windows.

It's a non-issue, important only in Joerg's mind. If the bus company had
a problem with broken windshields, they'd have fixed the racks or
protected the windshields long ago.

One might also speculate on whether the majority of the bus riders
actually care whether bicycle racks are installed, or not.


Sacramento Transit seems to think that two bicycle carriers
per bus are adequate. This may miss the larger trend:

https://www.cato.org/publications/po...sit-apocalypse


Sacramento Transit is suffering a substantial decline in ridership. If
they can't catch more split-commute folks (car-transit and bike-transit)
they'll have serious budget problems soon. Observations:

Actually they have a budget problem already. The public transportation
systems in the U.S. are subsidized and all seem to lose money. The New
York transportation system loses about $.75/passenger while the
Virginia HRT losses nearly 7 dollars a passenger.
https://bit.ly/2HiRxTs

Which, given that the average U.S. family owns 1.9 autos seem a
foolish waste of money at one end of the spectrum, or the other.


Yeah, you'd simply throw in the towel instead of trying to fix it.
Right. That is not the modus operandi I am accustomed to as an engineer.
First I will try to find out what's wrong and whether it can be fixed or
not.

Fix what? The fact that public transportation systems in the U.S., and
probably most foreign countries, are subsidized in order to allow them
to charge lower rates? And where does this money come from? Well,
either from taxes or from long term loans that the state or local
government makes, and on which they pay interest.

As I pointed out, public transportation, if they were self supporting,
would probably increase their rates to double, or more what they are
now.

But of course, this is all right. Let the state go into debt to
provide low fares, and ultimately the point comes where taxes have to
be increased to cover the debt and everyone whines about "high taxes".

Reality appears to be a subject that USians prefer to ignore.

[...]


One might ask, "why public transportation" when according to current
figures the average U.S. family owns 1.968 autos?


Typically because they want get to and from work faster. I do it out of
environmental consciousness and it increases my cycling range. So far
only light rail because the bus racks won't accommodate modern MTB. Lots
of cyclists in my area use their pickup trucks instead. The
environmentally worst method is the two-location shuttle method.

No it doesn't increase your range... if range is house to house. What
you are doing is taking a bus to the top of the hill so you can coast
down.


Silly boy. If carrying your bicycle in a pickup causes environmental
damage just ride the bicycle.


And how about the 72 year old accompanying me who cannot hold it at
17-18mph for hours? Just leave him behind on the trail?

But 17 - 18mph? Lets see, that is 27.3 - 28.9kpk... Professional MTB
racers average about 30kph https://bit.ly/2wpdSen you guys must be
racers.

Or liars?

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 19:52:51 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/29/2018 7:39 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-29 16:18, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 07:45:19 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2018-08-28 21:42, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:15:53 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/28/2018 9:01 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 21:49:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/28/2018 7:27 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 28 Aug 2018 07:43:58 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2018-08-27 18:13, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:43:40 -0700, Joerg

wrote:

On 2018-08-27 16:20, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 5:49:57 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-08-27 13:53, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
Reading the thread about bus racks being to short for some
bicycles
got me to thinking about how the bicycle is supported in
the rack.
When I worked in bicycle shops we called those bicycle
parking racks
with the two low hoops to hold the wheels "wheel benders"
as we often
had wheel repairs that were caused by the sideways force
on the
wheels. I wonder if bus racks have the same problem at
times if that
front wheel hook is not supporting the bicycle from
swaying a bit
side to side.


The wheel hook is what is supposed to prevent it from
swaying. A wheel
itself can't. Just imagine: While the racks on our buses
are barely wide
enough to squeeze in my 2.25" wide rear tire a 25mm road
bike tire would
make the bike almost fall over, considering that the slot
is just around
4" deep. Some people who still run 23mm tires or even less
would also
risk marring their rims badly when the sides of the rims
would bang
against the steel tube of the rack rail all the time. You'd
likely feel
the damage immediately the first time you use the rim brakes.

Another detail I noticed: The handlebar end of my MTB was
very close to
the windshield of the bus. Scary. I watched it on the
freeway and while
the bike "came closer" it didn't quite touch glass. Despite
the
panniers. That only worked because I had shortened the
handlebar
significantly a few months after I bought the MTB.

What would happen if the handlebar touched the glass?


Possibly a crack. Since it is curved glass that would cause
an expensive
repair and loss of service costs while the bus is in the shop.

One can only speculate. Generally speaking, if you break
someone's
window, you get to pay for it, in some manner.


Not if the rack was sub-par and caused the event.

You mean if the bus company is nice enough to install bicycle racks
that, as you previously wrote, fit many bicycles and your bicycle
doesn't fit so a window gets broken it is the bus company's fault?

Logically then it is to the bus company's advantage to get rid
of the
bicycle racks and thus avoid the expense of broken windows.

It's a non-issue, important only in Joerg's mind. If the bus
company had
a problem with broken windshields, they'd have fixed the racks or
protected the windshields long ago.

One might also speculate on whether the majority of the bus riders
actually care whether bicycle racks are installed, or not.


Sacramento Transit seems to think that two bicycle carriers
per bus are adequate. This may miss the larger trend:

https://www.cato.org/publications/po...sit-apocalypse



Sacramento Transit is suffering a substantial decline in ridership. If
they can't catch more split-commute folks (car-transit and bike-transit)
they'll have serious budget problems soon. Observations:

Actually they have a budget problem already. The public transportation
systems in the U.S. are subsidized and all seem to lose money. The New
York transportation system loses about $.75/passenger while the
Virginia HRT losses nearly 7 dollars a passenger.
https://bit.ly/2HiRxTs

Which, given that the average U.S. family owns 1.9 autos seem a
foolish waste of money at one end of the spectrum, or the other.


Yeah, you'd simply throw in the towel instead of trying to fix it.
Right. That is not the modus operandi I am accustomed to as an engineer.
First I will try to find out what's wrong and whether it can be fixed or
not.

Fixing public transit is fine by me. But I don't think the problem is
the detail design of the bike racks.

But, of course it is Frank. After all we all know the world MUST be
configured to suit Jorge.