Mostly OT/Head Injury and Death

Gawdamighty -- you never know what will kill you. This sounds like a
subdural hematoma from a very mild head injury on the bunny slopes.
Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if headache persists.
Double vision and nausea are not normal unless they follow heavy
drinking. -- Jay Beattie.



NEW YORK – Natasha Richardson, a gifted and precocious heiress to
acting royalty whose career highlights included the film "Patty
Hearst" and a Tony-winning performance in a stage revival of
"Cabaret," died Wednesday at age 45 after suffering a head injury from
a skiing accident.

Alan Nierob, the Los Angeles-based publicist for Richardson's husband
Liam Neeson, confirmed her death in a written statement.

"Liam Neeson, his sons, and the entire family are shocked and
devastated by the tragic death of their beloved Natasha," the
statement said. "They are profoundly grateful for the support, love
and prayers of everyone, and ask for privacy during this very
difficult time."

The statement did not give details on the cause of death for
Richardson, who suffered a head injury when she fell on a beginner's
trail during a private ski lesson at the luxury Mont Tremblant ski
resort in Quebec. She was hospitalized Tuesday in Montreal and later
flown to a hospital in New York City.

On Mar 18, 7:57*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
Gawdamighty -- you never know what will kill you. *This sounds like a
subdural hematoma from a very mild head injury on the bunny slopes.
Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if headache persists.


Based on the story she did see a doctor in Montreal and New York. So
she did not neglect medical treatment, like most bicyclists would.



Double vision and nausea are not normal unless they follow heavy
drinking. -- Jay Beattie.

NEW YORK – Natasha Richardson, a gifted and precocious heiress to
acting royalty whose career highlights included the film "Patty
Hearst" and a Tony-winning performance in a stage revival of
"Cabaret," died Wednesday at age 45 after suffering a head injury from
a skiing accident.

Alan Nierob, the Los Angeles-based publicist for Richardson's husband
Liam Neeson, confirmed her death in a written statement.

"Liam Neeson, his sons, and the entire family are shocked and
devastated by the tragic death of their beloved Natasha," the
statement said. "They are profoundly grateful for the support, love
and prayers of everyone, and ask for privacy during this very
difficult time."

The statement did not give details on the cause of death for
Richardson, who suffered a head injury when she fell on a beginner's
trail during a private ski lesson at the luxury Mont Tremblant ski
resort in Quebec. She was hospitalized Tuesday in Montreal and later
flown to a hospital in New York City.

aka Russell Seaton wrote:
On Mar 18, 7:57 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
Gawdamighty -- you never know what will kill you. This sounds like a
subdural hematoma from a very mild head injury on the bunny slopes.
Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if headache persists.


Based on the story she did see a doctor in Montreal and New York. So
she did not neglect medical treatment, like most bicyclists would.
[...]

I will be the troll and ask - was she wearing a helmet?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
LOCAL CACTUS EATS CYCLIST - datakoll

On Mar 19, 7:04*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
aka Russell Seaton wrote:

On Mar 18, 7:57 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
Gawdamighty -- you never know what will kill you. *This sounds like a
subdural hematoma from a very mild head injury on the bunny slopes.
Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if headache persists.

Based on the story she did see a doctor in Montreal and New York. *So
she did not neglect medical treatment, like most bicyclists would.
[...]

I will be the troll and ask - was she wearing a helmet?

No, but I'll even agree with Frank on this one that it probably would
not have made a difference. This sounds like the typical contre-coup
kind of injury where the brain sloshing against the cranium causes the
injury rather than the cranium getting cracked open on a hard
surface. I ski with a helmet because it keeps my ears warm and I like
my little head environment, but even wearning a helmet, I have rung my
bell a few times on ice. I think my helmet is most useful for tree
skiing. One thing we do have going for our resorts in the otherwise
crummy snow PNW are thick fir forests that give you a tree skiing
experience unlike the Rockies where you have whimpy little aspens. You
can crash in to really big, closely spaced trees up here. -- Jay
Beatte.

"Jay Beattie" wrote: (clip) it probably would
not have made a difference. This sounds like the typical contre-coup
kind of injury where the brain sloshing against the cranium causes the
injury rather than the cranium getting cracked open on a hard
surface. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I heard a discussion by a sports physician on this exact question. The
skull stops abruptly, and for a short time the brain continues to move.
This can disrupt the blood vessels to the brain, causing the inside of the
skull to fill with blood, compressing the brain. According to this doctor a
helmet absorbs some of the impact, so the collision between the brain and
the inside of the skull is less severe. This may or may not be enough to
save the person's life.

My own observation: cracking the skull open could save the person's life,
because it might relieve the pressure. They sometimes drill a hole in the
skull to let the pressure out. You can lose a lot of blood without dying,
as long as it's not doing brain damage.

On Mar 19, 7:32*am, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 19, 7:04*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:

aka Russell Seaton wrote:

On Mar 18, 7:57 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
Gawdamighty -- you never know what will kill you. *This sounds like a
subdural hematoma from a very mild head injury on the bunny slopes.
Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if headache persists.

Based on the story she did see a doctor in Montreal and New York. *So
she did not neglect medical treatment, like most bicyclists would.
[...]

I will be the troll and ask - was she wearing a helmet?

No, but I'll even agree with Frank on this one that it probably would
not have made a difference. *This sounds like the typical contre-coup
kind of injury where the brain sloshing against the cranium causes the
injury rather than the cranium getting cracked open on a hard
surface.

As far as I understand the various standards, this kind of injury from
over-acceleration is what foam helmets are intended to mitigate. S'why
they are tested by putting an accelerometer in a headform, as opposed
to a kind of test that would be appropriate for determining whether
the skull would crack.

-pm

On Mar 19, 9:44*am, pm wrote:
On Mar 19, 7:32*am, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Mar 19, 7:04*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:

aka Russell Seaton wrote:

On Mar 18, 7:57 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
Gawdamighty -- you never know what will kill you. *This sounds like a
subdural hematoma from a very mild head injury on the bunny slopes..
Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if headache persists.

Based on the story she did see a doctor in Montreal and New York. *So
she did not neglect medical treatment, like most bicyclists would.
[...]

I will be the troll and ask - was she wearing a helmet?

No, but I'll even agree with Frank on this one that it probably would
not have made a difference. *This sounds like the typical contre-coup
kind of injury where the brain sloshing against the cranium causes the
injury rather than the cranium getting cracked open on a hard
surface.

As far as I understand the various standards, this kind of injury from
over-acceleration is what foam helmets are intended to mitigate. S'why
they are tested by putting an accelerometer in a headform, as opposed
to a kind of test that would be appropriate for determining whether
the skull would crack.

I am not going to argue against helmets (I use one biking and skiinig)
-- and the autopsy is not in yet, so we don't know the exact cause of
death -- but hitting your head on a bunny slope is not the kind of
impact that will substantially deform a foam shell liner. I think
French bunny slope snow compresses easier than a helmet liner. The
impact is more like a whiplash, where your head snaps back, and your
brain sloshes around and whacks the cranium -- and the injury results
from the brain whipping around and not the cranium hitting a hard
surface.

Now if she went down hard on ice, that is like hitting your head on
cement, and I think a helmet would have been of some help, but then
again, I have done that with a helmet and practically knocked myself
out. I had an immediate headache, but I kept close track of my
symptoms, which did not worsen. I recall thinking that I fared no
better than when I did the same thing without a helmet, except that my
ears were warm and cozy.

I think the story is really more a cautionary tale about subdural
hematomas rather than helmets.

On Mar 19, 10:16*am, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 19, 9:44*am, pm wrote:



On Mar 19, 7:32*am, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Mar 19, 7:04*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:

aka Russell Seaton wrote:

On Mar 18, 7:57 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
Gawdamighty -- you never know what will kill you. *This sounds like a
subdural hematoma from a very mild head injury on the bunny slopes.
Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if headache persists.

Based on the story she did see a doctor in Montreal and New York. *So
she did not neglect medical treatment, like most bicyclists would..
[...]

I will be the troll and ask - was she wearing a helmet?

No, but I'll even agree with Frank on this one that it probably would
not have made a difference. *This sounds like the typical contre-coup
kind of injury where the brain sloshing against the cranium causes the
injury rather than the cranium getting cracked open on a hard
surface.

As far as I understand the various standards, this kind of injury from
over-acceleration is what foam helmets are intended to mitigate. S'why
they are tested by putting an accelerometer in a headform, as opposed
to a kind of test that would be appropriate for determining whether
the skull would crack.

I am not going to argue against helmets (I use one biking and skiinig)
-- and the autopsy is not in yet, so we don't know the exact cause of
death -- but hitting your head on a bunny slope is not the kind of
impact that will substantially deform a foam shell liner. I think
French bunny slope snow compresses easier than a helmet liner. *The
impact is more like a whiplash, where your head snaps back, and your
brain sloshes around and whacks the cranium -- and the injury results
from the brain whipping around and not the cranium hitting a hard
surface.

Now if she went down hard on ice, that is like hitting your head on
cement, and I think a helmet would have been of some help, but then
again, I have done that with a helmet and practically knocked myself
out. I had an immediate headache, but I kept close track of my
symptoms, which did not worsen. I recall thinking that I fared no
better than when I did the same thing without a helmet, except that my
ears were warm and cozy.

I think the story is really more a cautionary tale about subdural
hematomas rather than helmets.

I'm not going to discuss helmets because it's one's
own decision on the balance between inconvenience
and safety and we don't really know what happened,
other than that it was actually Canadian bunny slope
snow, not French. One cautionary lesson is to treat
head injuries seriously - where I strongly agree with Jay
that "Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if
headache persists."

Richardson did get medical attention - I think the
ski patrol insisted on stretchering her, and then
she saw a doctor (I also think any time you get
stretchered the local first aid will insist on examining
you). There may have been nothing more that
could have been done. However, there are also
cases where someone whacks head, insists
they feel okay or it's just a headache, and then
passes out later. This can be really bad, so if
you whack your head, get evaluated and then
stay around people who are watching you in case
you start to slip out of it.

I have had someone do this for me after whacking
my head in a CX race. I also had a friend who
whacked her head on the bunny snowboard slope,
got the full expensive stretcher and ambulance ride
with restraints, and was basically okay ... but also
wound up having dizzy spells for a month.
I thought the ambulance ride might have been
overkill, but after this story, not so sure of myself.

Ben

wrote:
On Mar 19, 10:16 am, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 19, 9:44 am, pm wrote:



On Mar 19, 7:32 am, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Mar 19, 7:04 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:

aka Russell Seaton wrote:

On Mar 18, 7:57 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
Gawdamighty -- you never know what will kill you. This sounds
like a subdural hematoma from a very mild head injury on the
bunny slopes. Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if
headache persists.

Based on the story she did see a doctor in Montreal and New
York. So she did not neglect medical treatment, like most
bicyclists would. [...]

I will be the troll and ask - was she wearing a helmet?

No, but I'll even agree with Frank on this one that it probably
would not have made a difference. This sounds like the typical
contre-coup kind of injury where the brain sloshing against the
cranium causes the injury rather than the cranium getting cracked
open on a hard surface.

As far as I understand the various standards, this kind of injury
from over-acceleration is what foam helmets are intended to
mitigate. S'why they are tested by putting an accelerometer in a
headform, as opposed to a kind of test that would be appropriate
for determining whether the skull would crack.

I am not going to argue against helmets (I use one biking and
skiinig) -- and the autopsy is not in yet, so we don't know the
exact cause of death -- but hitting your head on a bunny slope is
not the kind of impact that will substantially deform a foam shell
liner. I think French bunny slope snow compresses easier than a
helmet liner. The impact is more like a whiplash, where your head
snaps back, and your brain sloshes around and whacks the cranium --
and the injury results from the brain whipping around and not the
cranium hitting a hard surface.

Now if she went down hard on ice, that is like hitting your head on
cement, and I think a helmet would have been of some help, but then
again, I have done that with a helmet and practically knocked myself
out. I had an immediate headache, but I kept close track of my
symptoms, which did not worsen. I recall thinking that I fared no
better than when I did the same thing without a helmet, except that
my ears were warm and cozy.

I think the story is really more a cautionary tale about subdural
hematomas rather than helmets.

I'm not going to discuss helmets because it's one's
own decision on the balance between inconvenience
and safety and we don't really know what happened,
other than that it was actually Canadian bunny slope
snow, not French. One cautionary lesson is to treat
head injuries seriously - where I strongly agree with Jay
that "Note to self: see doctor after whacking head if
headache persists."

Richardson did get medical attention - I think the
ski patrol insisted on stretchering her, and then
she saw a doctor (I also think any time you get
stretchered the local first aid will insist on examining
you). There may have been nothing more that
could have been done. However, there are also
cases where someone whacks head, insists
they feel okay or it's just a headache, and then
passes out later. This can be really bad, so if
you whack your head, get evaluated and then
stay around people who are watching you in case
you start to slip out of it.

I have had someone do this for me after whacking
my head in a CX race. I also had a friend who
whacked her head on the bunny snowboard slope,
got the full expensive stretcher and ambulance ride
with restraints, and was basically okay ... but also
wound up having dizzy spells for a month.
I thought the ambulance ride might have been
overkill, but after this story, not so sure of myself.

Ben

The version I heard is that she refused medical help and laughed it off,
continuing to ski for an hour or so. Then she complained of a headache and
it was downhill from there. (No slopes joke intended.)

I used to ski a lot and it never occurred to me or my friends to wear a
helmet. Doubt I would now, either, unless I was trying the trees or
something. If something that fluky is going to get you, why fight it...

Bill "padded cap?" S.

Leo Lichtman wrote:
"Jay Beattie" wrote: (clip) it probably would
not have made a difference. This sounds like the typical contre-coup
kind of injury where the brain sloshing against the cranium causes the
injury rather than the cranium getting cracked open on a hard
surface. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I heard a discussion by a sports physician on this exact question. The
skull stops abruptly, and for a short time the brain continues to move.
This can disrupt the blood vessels to the brain, causing the inside of the
skull to fill with blood, compressing the brain. According to this doctor a
helmet absorbs some of the impact, so the collision between the brain and
the inside of the skull is less severe. This may or may not be enough to
save the person's life.

My own observation: cracking the skull open could save the person's life,
because it might relieve the pressure. They sometimes drill a hole in the
skull to let the pressure out. You can lose a lot of blood without dying,
as long as it's not doing brain damage.


Yep, all that's true (lost a friend that way).

The problem on site is that you have no idea what's going on
in there. Unlike strokes (could be a clot; could be a bleed.
But there are clear symptoms), proper diagnosis is more
than 'testing' or 'imaging', it's knowing when that's
appropriate or necessary.

In this case, further pursuit was just not indicated.

Here in the bike shop, to the request 'can you fix my bike;
I was in an accident', we respond, 'any chance you hit your
head?'. A rider in shock, with blood out her ears, will
usually be more concerned with a bent rim than her own
survival. Had a head-smacked rider here Tuesday, frantic to
get a wheel fixed. That turned out well, but great care
should be taken for the rider before the bike (or skis).

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971