FTP

I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?

To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind. What are the power out puts at various speeds?

I have never done an all out time trial as such on a bike. Funny because I ride a lot miles and generally probably strong rider but nothing to compare.. As a runner I knew in an instant where I was with training and pace and even my place as a runner. On bike I am lost because with out some to push even just another rider seems I never will get a true figure how I would TT. Once on a ride a group of strong younger shop riders went by me pretty fast. I then tried to keep up and sure enough I did way more that I could just on a solo ride.
Deacon mark

Op dinsdag 24 november 2020 om 21:00:11 UTC+1 schreef :
I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?

Friend of mine tried one and he didn't like it (don't remember why) and returned to Stages (model 3 or 4, Jay?)

To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind. What are the power out puts at various speeds?

Well, in tight fit summer cycling clothes on the hoods and at temperature between 20-30 C 200W for an average speed of 32 km/hr; 180 W for 30 km/hr and 160 W for 28 km/hr.

I have never done an all out time trial as such on a bike. Funny because I ride a lot miles and generally probably strong rider but nothing to compare. As a runner I knew in an instant where I was with training and pace and even my place as a runner. On bike I am lost because with out some to push even just another rider seems I never will get a true figure how I would TT. Once on a ride a group of strong younger shop riders went by me pretty fast. I then tried to keep up and sure enough I did way more that I could just on a solo ride.

Maintaining 180 W on a trainer is very hard; outside is much easier. A FTP test (ride as fast as you can for 20 minutes) alone is very hard.

Lou

On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 12:24:38 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Op dinsdag 24 november 2020 om 21:00:11 UTC+1 schreef :
I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?
Friend of mine tried one and he didn't like it (don't remember why) and returned to Stages (model 3 or 4, Jay?)

Gen. 3 for the crank. Gen. 2 for the head unit. My son informs me that the maps on the latest head unit are great because they show the location of bathrooms.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 11/24/2020 3:00 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?

To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind. What are the power out puts at various speeds?

I have never done an all out time trial as such on a bike. Funny because I ride a lot miles and generally probably strong rider but nothing to compare. As a runner I knew in an instant where I was with training and pace and even my place as a runner. On bike I am lost because with out some to push even just another rider seems I never will get a true figure how I would TT. Once on a ride a group of strong younger shop riders went by me pretty fast. I then tried to keep up and sure enough I did way more that I could just on a solo ride.
Deacon mark

I can't comment on the power meter, as I've never been tempted to use
one. But if you're interested in your time trial performance, I'd think
the easiest thing to do is measure out your own course and do your own
time trial.

If you want precision, first calibrate your cyclometer using a rollout
test https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cycleco...libration.html but
yours is probably within a couple percent without that, so close enough.
Find a flat smooth road and mark an out and back course.

You shouldn't need anyone to ride against. After all, a time trial is a
solo event, unless you're much faster than the guy who starts ahead of
you, or much slower than the guy who starts behind. You just ride as
hard as you can for the course distance.

It may take some trial and error to choose your optimum pace. If you do
it right, you should be at the verge of collapse at the end of a time
trial, unable to stand. But I think after a few attempts you'd learn
your best pace and have a good idea of your capabilities. Then maybe
every few months you could indulge in hurting yourself again to see if
you've improved.

Speaking of COVID: Subjecting oneself to pain was used in an attempt to
remove a previous plague.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/flagellants.htm

But the Church did not approve, and it wasn't successful. So don't take
this too far!


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 25/11/20 7:00 am, Mark Cleary wrote:


To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to
estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a
time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I
am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means
zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind.
What are the power out puts at various speeds?

http://bikecalculator.com/

Might help.

--
JS

On 11/24/2020 12:00 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?

I've had one for five years; Due to my odd crank & pedal choices, I got
a rear-hub-based model. Frankly, to me, it's an amusing toy, and I'm a
data nerd, so it gives me data to play with. If you have one "main" bike
and use a crank for which PM options exist, then yes, that's easiest to
work with.

Truth is, power numbers are mostly good for comparing to /other power
numbers/. It can be helpful to track one's relative fitness over time,
but there are other measures: what Frank said about just comparing speed
to speed. You can do similar stuff with rate of climb (look up VAM) if
you have both a GPS and a long hill you ride frequently. Though, as
noted above, that doesn't take into account variations in wind
conditions, etc.

One thing - and take this seriously - power meters can be seriously
depressing, esp. at our age, because they serve to tell you how much you
suck compared to others - esp. when you see professional riders' power
numbers. It's an eye-opening and boggling comparison.
I used to joke that I was semi-pro b/c my power numbers and VAM were
right about half of top pros. This is *not* a terribly flattering
comparison; differences of 3-5 percent in the pro peloton is the
difference between winning and pack fodder.

To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind. What are the power out puts at various speeds?

You can *estimate* without a power meter. The estimate is usually
awful, and there's probably no way to tell. I gather Strava will
estimate if you aren't using a power meter (not sure), but word is their
estimates are awful, perhaps in part b/c they can only take into account
terrain, weight and speed, not wind conditions or whether/not you are
drafting.

James posted a power calculator site, here's another:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
Besides betting that they will agree at most roughly, I have no idea if
one is better than the other.

Another option is to get a smart trainer and play Zwift or the like; the
direct-drive options (trainer replaces entire rear wheel) will give you
pretty precise FTP measures b/c most direct-drive trainers incorporate a
power measuring component. The cost is not far off from a road-based
power meter, and I hear it gets snowy where you are.

I have never done an all out time trial as such on a bike. Funny because I ride a lot miles and generally probably strong rider but nothing to compare. As a runner I knew in an instant where I was with training and pace and even my place as a runner. On bike I am lost because with out some to push even just another rider seems I never will get a true figure how I would TT. Once on a ride a group of strong younger shop riders went by me pretty fast. I then tried to keep up and sure enough I did way more that I could just on a solo ride.
Deacon mark

I have done a large handful of TTs spread over many decades. As you've
already noted, it's hard to go as fast as you can when you're all alone,
'cause it's hard to know where the line is past which you'll blow up.
And many/most people are psychologically able to push harder when
there's a "rabbit" to follow. Generally my experience in weekly TT
series was that you get faster in the last two weeks 'cause you're
getting a better sense of where the line is. I think that's part of the
reason that some pros are TT specialists - you get good at it in part by
just doing it a lot.

Digression: There are many ways to estimate FTP. The best-respected(?)
method is to ride as-hard-as-you-can for a full hour and take average
power. As noted above, this is really hard to do; common errors are to
have too much left at the end OR blow up completely around half way in.
Having a PM on the bike only helps you be consistent, finding out what
target to aim for is still a trial-and-error affair.
Another estimation method is to do the above but a 20-minute effort,
then estimate your "hour power" with 95% of your 20-min avg. power.
Finally, there's a "ramp test" wherein your power kicks up something
like 20W every minute, starting comfortably low. Keep going until you
blow up. Take ?65%? ?75%? of your best one-minute power as an estimate
of your "hour power."
A more sophisticated method: Go to an exercise physiology lab. They put
you on an ergometer and ramp up the power like the previous method.
They measure your blood lactate something like every minute or two with
a finger-stick drop of blood. !Choose carefully which finger you have
them use! Based on your power-vs-lactate curve and one of various
arcane (read "customary" or "heuristic") math methods, they estimate
what power you could maintain at steady state without your lactate
soaring. Technically this gives lactate threshold, not functional
threshold, which apparently are not the same thing, ?but you can
estimate one from the other?
Finally, for many folks, it appears that the relationships between these
tests are only approx. for the general population. I.e. many folks will
generate different estimates from each method, b/c their short-term vs
long-term power is not related in the "typical" way.

Short answers:

PMs are fun for providing data if you're into that; A power-measuring
trainer is an alternative to consider; the results are almost
universally depressing if you're comparing to other riders; non-PM
estimates are usually crap, but there are many of them; lots of
different ways to measure FTP even *with* a PM, and while much more
consistent than non-PM methods, still vary among themselves.

If you're still here, I hope that helped.
Mark J.

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 12:00:07 -0800 (PST), Mark Cleary
wrote:

I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?

To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind. What are the power out puts at various speeds?

I have never done an all out time trial as such on a bike. Funny because I ride a lot miles and generally probably strong rider but nothing to compare. As a runner I knew in an instant where I was with training and pace and even my place as a runner. On bike I am lost because with out some to push even just another rider seems I never will get a true figure how I would TT. Once on a ride a group of strong younger shop riders went by me pretty fast. I then tried to keep up and sure enough I did way more that I could just on a solo ride.
Deacon mark

On the other hand your new power meter may show that you can only
develop 150 watts for any extended time. Sometimes it is better not to
know :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 15:55:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/24/2020 3:00 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?

To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind. What are the power out puts at various speeds?

I have never done an all out time trial as such on a bike. Funny because I ride a lot miles and generally probably strong rider but nothing to compare. As a runner I knew in an instant where I was with training and pace and even my place as a runner. On bike I am lost because with out some to push even just another rider seems I never will get a true figure how I would TT. Once on a ride a group of strong younger shop riders went by me pretty fast. I then tried to keep up and sure enough I did way more that I could just on a solo ride.
Deacon mark

I can't comment on the power meter, as I've never been tempted to use
one. But if you're interested in your time trial performance, I'd think
the easiest thing to do is measure out your own course and do your own
time trial.

If you want precision, first calibrate your cyclometer using a rollout
test https://www.sheldonbrown.com/cycleco...libration.html but
yours is probably within a couple percent without that, so close enough.
Find a flat smooth road and mark an out and back course.

You shouldn't need anyone to ride against. After all, a time trial is a
solo event, unless you're much faster than the guy who starts ahead of
you, or much slower than the guy who starts behind. You just ride as
hard as you can for the course distance.

It may take some trial and error to choose your optimum pace. If you do
it right, you should be at the verge of collapse at the end of a time
trial, unable to stand. But I think after a few attempts you'd learn
your best pace and have a good idea of your capabilities. Then maybe
every few months you could indulge in hurting yourself again to see if
you've improved.

Speaking of COVID: Subjecting oneself to pain was used in an attempt to
remove a previous plague.
http://www.eyewitnesstohistory.com/flagellants.htm

But the Church did not approve, and it wasn't successful. So don't take
this too far!

In the Philippines they do this for Easter :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UMOHYDoTNU
But their death rate due to the virus is about one tenth of that in
the U.S. so who knows :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

Op woensdag 25 november 2020 om 00:35:15 UTC+1 schreef Mark J.:
On 11/24/2020 12:00 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?
I've had one for five years; Due to my odd crank & pedal choices, I got
a rear-hub-based model. Frankly, to me, it's an amusing toy, and I'm a
data nerd, so it gives me data to play with. If you have one "main" bike
and use a crank for which PM options exist, then yes, that's easiest to
work with.

Truth is, power numbers are mostly good for comparing to /other power
numbers/. It can be helpful to track one's relative fitness over time,
but there are other measures: what Frank said about just comparing speed
to speed. You can do similar stuff with rate of climb (look up VAM) if
you have both a GPS and a long hill you ride frequently. Though, as
noted above, that doesn't take into account variations in wind
conditions, etc.

One thing - and take this seriously - power meters can be seriously
depressing, esp. at our age, because they serve to tell you how much you
suck compared to others - esp. when you see professional riders' power
numbers. It's an eye-opening and boggling comparison.
I used to joke that I was semi-pro b/c my power numbers and VAM were
right about half of top pros. This is *not* a terribly flattering
comparison; differences of 3-5 percent in the pro peloton is the
difference between winning and pack fodder.
To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind. What are the power out puts at various speeds?
You can *estimate* without a power meter. The estimate is usually
awful, and there's probably no way to tell. I gather Strava will
estimate if you aren't using a power meter (not sure), but word is their
estimates are awful, perhaps in part b/c they can only take into account
terrain, weight and speed, not wind conditions or whether/not you are
drafting.

James posted a power calculator site, here's another:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
Besides betting that they will agree at most roughly, I have no idea if
one is better than the other.

Another option is to get a smart trainer and play Zwift or the like; the
direct-drive options (trainer replaces entire rear wheel) will give you
pretty precise FTP measures b/c most direct-drive trainers incorporate a
power measuring component. The cost is not far off from a road-based
power meter, and I hear it gets snowy where you are.
I have never done an all out time trial as such on a bike. Funny because I ride a lot miles and generally probably strong rider but nothing to compare. As a runner I knew in an instant where I was with training and pace and even my place as a runner. On bike I am lost because with out some to push even just another rider seems I never will get a true figure how I would TT. Once on a ride a group of strong younger shop riders went by me pretty fast. I then tried to keep up and sure enough I did way more that I could just on a solo ride.
Deacon mark
I have done a large handful of TTs spread over many decades. As you've
already noted, it's hard to go as fast as you can when you're all alone,
'cause it's hard to know where the line is past which you'll blow up.
And many/most people are psychologically able to push harder when
there's a "rabbit" to follow. Generally my experience in weekly TT
series was that you get faster in the last two weeks 'cause you're
getting a better sense of where the line is. I think that's part of the
reason that some pros are TT specialists - you get good at it in part by
just doing it a lot.

Digression: There are many ways to estimate FTP. The best-respected(?)
method is to ride as-hard-as-you-can for a full hour and take average
power. As noted above, this is really hard to do; common errors are to
have too much left at the end OR blow up completely around half way in.
Having a PM on the bike only helps you be consistent, finding out what
target to aim for is still a trial-and-error affair.
Another estimation method is to do the above but a 20-minute effort,
then estimate your "hour power" with 95% of your 20-min avg. power.
Finally, there's a "ramp test" wherein your power kicks up something
like 20W every minute, starting comfortably low. Keep going until you
blow up. Take ?65%? ?75%? of your best one-minute power as an estimate
of your "hour power."
A more sophisticated method: Go to an exercise physiology lab. They put
you on an ergometer and ramp up the power like the previous method.
They measure your blood lactate something like every minute or two with
a finger-stick drop of blood. !Choose carefully which finger you have
them use! Based on your power-vs-lactate curve and one of various
arcane (read "customary" or "heuristic") math methods, they estimate
what power you could maintain at steady state without your lactate
soaring. Technically this gives lactate threshold, not functional
threshold, which apparently are not the same thing, ?but you can
estimate one from the other?
Finally, for many folks, it appears that the relationships between these
tests are only approx. for the general population. I.e. many folks will
generate different estimates from each method, b/c their short-term vs
long-term power is not related in the "typical" way.

Short answers:

PMs are fun for providing data if you're into that; A power-measuring
trainer is an alternative to consider; the results are almost
universally depressing if you're comparing to other riders; non-PM
estimates are usually crap, but there are many of them; lots of
different ways to measure FTP even *with* a PM, and while much more
consistent than non-PM methods, still vary among themselves.

If you're still here, I hope that helped.
Mark J.


Good post! A PM tells you how to value good tires with a low RR. 10-15 W differents between good and crappy tires is very significant on you average power.

Lou, Today's ride 190 W average during 2,5 hr

On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 3:35:15 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 11/24/2020 12:00 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
I don't have a power meter but thinking about getting one. In my investigations over the years it seems a crank based unit is best. Getting 4iiii might be good. Does anyone here use one?
I've had one for five years; Due to my odd crank & pedal choices, I got
a rear-hub-based model. Frankly, to me, it's an amusing toy, and I'm a
data nerd, so it gives me data to play with. If you have one "main" bike
and use a crank for which PM options exist, then yes, that's easiest to
work with.

Truth is, power numbers are mostly good for comparing to /other power
numbers/. It can be helpful to track one's relative fitness over time,
but there are other measures: what Frank said about just comparing speed
to speed. You can do similar stuff with rate of climb (look up VAM) if
you have both a GPS and a long hill you ride frequently. Though, as
noted above, that doesn't take into account variations in wind
conditions, etc.

One thing - and take this seriously - power meters can be seriously
depressing, esp. at our age, because they serve to tell you how much you
suck compared to others - esp. when you see professional riders' power
numbers. It's an eye-opening and boggling comparison.
I used to joke that I was semi-pro b/c my power numbers and VAM were
right about half of top pros. This is *not* a terribly flattering
comparison; differences of 3-5 percent in the pro peloton is the
difference between winning and pack fodder.
To the question on Functional Threshold Power. Is there anyway to estimate what mine is without a power meter. I am mean based on a time trial of say 30 minutes? Power numbers don't mean much to me I am a rider who bases things on average speed. I realize that means zero given conditions. But lets assume a flat course with no wind. What are the power out puts at various speeds?
You can *estimate* without a power meter. The estimate is usually
awful, and there's probably no way to tell. I gather Strava will
estimate if you aren't using a power meter (not sure), but word is their
estimates are awful, perhaps in part b/c they can only take into account
terrain, weight and speed, not wind conditions or whether/not you are
drafting.

James posted a power calculator site, here's another:
http://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm
Besides betting that they will agree at most roughly, I have no idea if
one is better than the other.

Another option is to get a smart trainer and play Zwift or the like; the
direct-drive options (trainer replaces entire rear wheel) will give you
pretty precise FTP measures b/c most direct-drive trainers incorporate a
power measuring component. The cost is not far off from a road-based
power meter, and I hear it gets snowy where you are.
I have never done an all out time trial as such on a bike. Funny because I ride a lot miles and generally probably strong rider but nothing to compare. As a runner I knew in an instant where I was with training and pace and even my place as a runner. On bike I am lost because with out some to push even just another rider seems I never will get a true figure how I would TT. Once on a ride a group of strong younger shop riders went by me pretty fast. I then tried to keep up and sure enough I did way more that I could just on a solo ride.
Deacon mark
I have done a large handful of TTs spread over many decades. As you've
already noted, it's hard to go as fast as you can when you're all alone,
'cause it's hard to know where the line is past which you'll blow up.
And many/most people are psychologically able to push harder when
there's a "rabbit" to follow. Generally my experience in weekly TT
series was that you get faster in the last two weeks 'cause you're
getting a better sense of where the line is. I think that's part of the
reason that some pros are TT specialists - you get good at it in part by
just doing it a lot.

Digression: There are many ways to estimate FTP. The best-respected(?)
method is to ride as-hard-as-you-can for a full hour and take average
power. As noted above, this is really hard to do; common errors are to
have too much left at the end OR blow up completely around half way in.
Having a PM on the bike only helps you be consistent, finding out what
target to aim for is still a trial-and-error affair.
Another estimation method is to do the above but a 20-minute effort,
then estimate your "hour power" with 95% of your 20-min avg. power.
Finally, there's a "ramp test" wherein your power kicks up something
like 20W every minute, starting comfortably low. Keep going until you
blow up. Take ?65%? ?75%? of your best one-minute power as an estimate
of your "hour power."
A more sophisticated method: Go to an exercise physiology lab. They put
you on an ergometer and ramp up the power like the previous method.
They measure your blood lactate something like every minute or two with
a finger-stick drop of blood. !Choose carefully which finger you have
them use! Based on your power-vs-lactate curve and one of various
arcane (read "customary" or "heuristic") math methods, they estimate
what power you could maintain at steady state without your lactate
soaring. Technically this gives lactate threshold, not functional
threshold, which apparently are not the same thing, ?but you can
estimate one from the other?
Finally, for many folks, it appears that the relationships between these
tests are only approx. for the general population. I.e. many folks will
generate different estimates from each method, b/c their short-term vs
long-term power is not related in the "typical" way.

Short answers:

PMs are fun for providing data if you're into that; A power-measuring
trainer is an alternative to consider; the results are almost
universally depressing if you're comparing to other riders; non-PM
estimates are usually crap, but there are many of them; lots of
different ways to measure FTP even *with* a PM, and while much more
consistent than non-PM methods, still vary among themselves.

If you're still here, I hope that helped.
Mark J.

Using your regular bike and a couple of photos of your front and back riding position and then doing 10 mile time trial can give you an excellent guestimation of your power out. The question is; of what value is this if you aren't a racer in a heavy training regimen? Knowing your power output is only good to gauge how you are progressing in your training. If you're a sports rider you gauge your progress by riding against the faster riders in your group.