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  #11  
Old November 24th 20, 06:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
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Posts: 538
Default Not Lance

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many 60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark

.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who, let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state. Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools were doing before he came along.
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  #12  
Old November 24th 20, 10:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,721
Default Not Lance

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many 60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark

.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who, let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state. Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools were doing before he came along.


Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions. But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored blood back into your body.
  #13  
Old November 25th 20, 02:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,839
Default Not Lance

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:13:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many 60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark
.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who, let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state. Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools were doing before he came along.


Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions. But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored blood back into your body.


I seem to remember that the U.S. teams pioneered the technique at the
1968 Olympics. It was not illegal at the time and the story was that
they needed the extra oxygen carrying potential because of the
altitude. The U.S. also won some 107 medals.
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #14  
Old November 25th 20, 05:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 769
Default Not Lance

On 11/24/2020 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:13:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many 60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark
.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who, let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state. Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools were doing before he came along.


Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions. But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored blood back into your body.


I seem to remember that the U.S. teams pioneered the technique at the
1968 Olympics. It was not illegal at the time and the story was that
they needed the extra oxygen carrying potential because of the
altitude. The U.S. also won some 107 medals.


Blood doping at the Mexico City Olympics? Really? I thought the first
major (US, Olympic) blood doping incident was the 1984 LA Olympics.
Still not illegal, but the altitude wasn't there, unlike Mexico City.

If you have a reference for Mexico City, I'd really like to know.

Thanks,
Mark J.
  #15  
Old November 25th 20, 06:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,839
Default Not Lance

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 20:40:10 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 11/24/2020 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:13:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many 60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark
.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who, let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state. Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools were doing before he came along.

Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions. But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored blood back into your body.


I seem to remember that the U.S. teams pioneered the technique at the
1968 Olympics. It was not illegal at the time and the story was that
they needed the extra oxygen carrying potential because of the
altitude. The U.S. also won some 107 medals.


Blood doping at the Mexico City Olympics? Really? I thought the first
major (US, Olympic) blood doping incident was the 1984 LA Olympics.
Still not illegal, but the altitude wasn't there, unlike Mexico City.

If you have a reference for Mexico City, I'd really like to know.

Thanks,
Mark J.


No I don't have a reference specifically stating U.S. but you might
look at https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/1/99 which says it was used at
the 1968 Olympics and U.S. athletes won 170 medals. I also found an
article stating that, "the LA Olympics in 1984 was the watershed
event. There was extensive use of blood transfusions, including by
several members of the highly successful US cycling team."

Some years ago I read a book written by a doctor that was involved in
drug testing for the 1956 Summer Olympics in Australia and he wrote
that "drugging" in some form has been a part of the Olympics from the
earliest Greek days. Apparently early Greek athlete ate bull's
testicles as it was said to enhance strength. Testicles? Testosterone?
Steroid? Big Muscles?
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #16  
Old November 25th 20, 06:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mark J.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 769
Default Not Lance

On 11/24/2020 9:49 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 20:40:10 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 11/24/2020 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:13:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many 60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark
.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who, let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state. Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools were doing before he came along.

Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions. But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored blood back into your body.

I seem to remember that the U.S. teams pioneered the technique at the
1968 Olympics. It was not illegal at the time and the story was that
they needed the extra oxygen carrying potential because of the
altitude. The U.S. also won some 107 medals.


Blood doping at the Mexico City Olympics? Really? I thought the first
major (US, Olympic) blood doping incident was the 1984 LA Olympics.
Still not illegal, but the altitude wasn't there, unlike Mexico City.

If you have a reference for Mexico City, I'd really like to know.

Thanks,
Mark J.


No I don't have a reference specifically stating U.S. but you might
look at https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/1/99 which says it was used at
the 1968 Olympics and U.S. athletes won 170 medals. I also found an
article stating that, "the LA Olympics in 1984 was the watershed
event. There was extensive use of blood transfusions, including by
several members of the highly successful US cycling team."

Some years ago I read a book written by a doctor that was involved in
drug testing for the 1956 Summer Olympics in Australia and he wrote
that "drugging" in some form has been a part of the Olympics from the
earliest Greek days. Apparently early Greek athlete ate bull's
testicles as it was said to enhance strength. Testicles? Testosterone?
Steroid? Big Muscles?

Thanks for the link; in the article, I see "Widespread use [of blood
boosting] among endurance athletes ... started after the 1968 Olympic
Games, in Mexico City"

So the source seems to say "after" '68, but still much earlier than '84.
I learned something today. Thanks again.
Mark J.
  #17  
Old November 25th 20, 07:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,839
Default Not Lance

On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 21:54:30 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 11/24/2020 9:49 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 20:40:10 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 11/24/2020 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:13:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many 60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark
.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who, let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state. Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools were doing before he came along.

Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions. But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored blood back into your body.

I seem to remember that the U.S. teams pioneered the technique at the
1968 Olympics. It was not illegal at the time and the story was that
they needed the extra oxygen carrying potential because of the
altitude. The U.S. also won some 107 medals.


Blood doping at the Mexico City Olympics? Really? I thought the first
major (US, Olympic) blood doping incident was the 1984 LA Olympics.
Still not illegal, but the altitude wasn't there, unlike Mexico City.

If you have a reference for Mexico City, I'd really like to know.

Thanks,
Mark J.


No I don't have a reference specifically stating U.S. but you might
look at https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/1/99 which says it was used at
the 1968 Olympics and U.S. athletes won 170 medals. I also found an
article stating that, "the LA Olympics in 1984 was the watershed
event. There was extensive use of blood transfusions, including by
several members of the highly successful US cycling team."

Some years ago I read a book written by a doctor that was involved in
drug testing for the 1956 Summer Olympics in Australia and he wrote
that "drugging" in some form has been a part of the Olympics from the
earliest Greek days. Apparently early Greek athlete ate bull's
testicles as it was said to enhance strength. Testicles? Testosterone?
Steroid? Big Muscles?

Thanks for the link; in the article, I see "Widespread use [of blood
boosting] among endurance athletes ... started after the 1968 Olympic
Games, in Mexico City"

So the source seems to say "after" '68, but still much earlier than '84.
I learned something today. Thanks again.
Mark J.


If you are interested, I believe that, amongst those who indulge,
bull's testicles are known as "Mountain Oysters" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

  #18  
Old November 25th 20, 04:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 710
Default Not Lance

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 20:40:10 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 11/24/2020 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:13:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible
under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I
might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many
60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best
with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark
.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and
bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other
competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why
total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body
for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for
greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure
will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who,
let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top
class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the
latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar
amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood
cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding
additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state.
Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow
you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you
to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the
same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now
but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed
for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools
were doing before he came along.

Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood
cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells.
Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever
and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells.
Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The
blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood
could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions.
But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has
extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new
ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood
cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored
blood back into your body.

I seem to remember that the U.S. teams pioneered the technique at the
1968 Olympics. It was not illegal at the time and the story was that
they needed the extra oxygen carrying potential because of the
altitude. The U.S. also won some 107 medals.


Blood doping at the Mexico City Olympics? Really? I thought the first
major (US, Olympic) blood doping incident was the 1984 LA Olympics.
Still not illegal, but the altitude wasn't there, unlike Mexico City.

If you have a reference for Mexico City, I'd really like to know.

Thanks,
Mark J.


No I don't have a reference specifically stating U.S. but you might
look at https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/1/99 which says it was used at
the 1968 Olympics and U.S. athletes won 170 medals. I also found an
article stating that, "the LA Olympics in 1984 was the watershed
event. There was extensive use of blood transfusions, including by
several members of the highly successful US cycling team."

Some years ago I read a book written by a doctor that was involved in
drug testing for the 1956 Summer Olympics in Australia and he wrote
that "drugging" in some form has been a part of the Olympics from the
earliest Greek days. Apparently early Greek athlete ate bull's
testicles as it was said to enhance strength. Testicles? Testosterone?
Steroid? Big Muscles?


The book “Spitting in the Soup” provides a fairly balanced history of
doping in sport.

  #19  
Old November 25th 20, 10:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 538
Default Not Lance

On Tuesday, November 24, 2020 at 1:13:11 PM UTC-8, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many 60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark
.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who, let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state. Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools were doing before he came along.

Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells. Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions. But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored blood back into your body.


Russell, when you exercise to exhaustion you "wear out" red blood cells and they die and are removed via your kidneys. Normally RBC's wear out and are evacuated from the body via your normal bodily functions. The idea behind blood transfusions wasn't so much to increase red blood cell count during a race but to replace the lost ones that would lead to lower and lower VO2 Max during the race. Before the race they could either use EPO or excess blood transfusions to boost your red blood cell count and VO2 Max but during a Tour you couldn't even keep up with the RBC loss.

Your entire blood supply is replaced every 4 to 8 weeks for a normal healthy individual in their 30's. This is also the case for some old but healthy people. My RBC count is pretty low because of the damage from the poison gas and the medication I need to take to prevent seizures.
  #20  
Old November 25th 20, 11:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 12,672
Default Not Lance

On 11/25/2020 9:24 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 20:40:10 -0800, "Mark J."
wrote:

On 11/24/2020 5:02 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 24 Nov 2020 13:13:08 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 11:31:59 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 4:10:41 PM UTC-8, Andre Jute wrote:
On Monday, November 23, 2020 at 9:38:15 PM UTC, wrote:
I have never doped and my marathon PR is 3:06. I think possible
under perfect conditions and a group not necessarily even drafting I
might be able to do a 5 hour century? My guess is that probably many
60 year old cyclists can do that but I just never have yet. My best
with no rest and completely solo 5:15 a few years ago.

What dope will get me there?

Deacon Mark
.
I think you have this the wrong way round, Mark. First you train and
bring your body AND your skills to perfection, same as the other
competitors are doing, THEN you dope for the extra edge. This is why
total body blood doping -- the exchange of all the blood in the body
for fresh blood -- which allows the body to burn more oxygen for
greater output is so effective. But even such an extreme measure
will do nothing against professionals for an overweight old guy who,
let us say, gave up cycling twenty years ago and anyway wasn't a top
class athlete even twenty years before that. All it will do for the
latter guy is help him beat fat old guys who had developed similar
amateur skills way back in their day.

Sorry to disappoint you.
Well, they were exchanging blood. As you work very hard red blood
cells get worn out and are excreted. Blood doping was merely adding
additional transfusions so that you recovered to your natural state.
Testosterone would make you more aggressive but NO drugs can allow
you to extent past your bodies capacity. Pain killers would allow you
to ride harder for longer but the damage to your body would be the
same with or without the pain killers. I forgot the doctor's name now
but he knew what was going on very well and the programs he developed
for cyclists caused them the least hard compared to what those fools
were doing before he came along.

Blood transfusions were effective because they added extra red blood
cells to your body. Your body only makes so many red blood cells.
Red blood cells are not like hair or fingernails which grow forever
and continuously. Your body only makes so many red blood cells.
Enough to get enough oxygen to all your cells during exercise. The
blood transfusions would add extra red blood cells. So your blood
could carry extra oxygen and you could do harder exercise exertions.
But after awhile, few weeks probably, your body recognizes it has
extra red blood cells in the blood and cuts down, stops making new
ones. And your body returns to having the normal amount of red blood
cells. And then you have to blood dope again by shooting more stored
blood back into your body.

I seem to remember that the U.S. teams pioneered the technique at the
1968 Olympics. It was not illegal at the time and the story was that
they needed the extra oxygen carrying potential because of the
altitude. The U.S. also won some 107 medals.


Blood doping at the Mexico City Olympics? Really? I thought the first
major (US, Olympic) blood doping incident was the 1984 LA Olympics.
Still not illegal, but the altitude wasn't there, unlike Mexico City.

If you have a reference for Mexico City, I'd really like to know.

Thanks,
Mark J.


No I don't have a reference specifically stating U.S. but you might
look at https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/38/1/99 which says it was used at
the 1968 Olympics and U.S. athletes won 170 medals. I also found an
article stating that, "the LA Olympics in 1984 was the watershed
event. There was extensive use of blood transfusions, including by
several members of the highly successful US cycling team."

Some years ago I read a book written by a doctor that was involved in
drug testing for the 1956 Summer Olympics in Australia and he wrote
that "drugging" in some form has been a part of the Olympics from the
earliest Greek days. Apparently early Greek athlete ate bull's
testicles as it was said to enhance strength. Testicles? Testosterone?
Steroid? Big Muscles?


The book “Spitting in the Soup” provides a fairly balanced history of
doping in sport.


Anquetil was quite open about his use of cocaine, champagne
and morphine on his way to FIVE TdF jerseys; 1957, 1961, 62,
63, 64. Effective pre-EPO technique.

Saint Tommy (1967) is a less stellar example for methedrine.
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/st_tommy.jpg

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


 




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