gary fisher nirvana 2003 or 2004? Please help

I am trying to decide what gary fisher nirvana bike to buy. The XXL size
(25 inch) that I need is now available as 2003 and 2004 model. The 2003
model looks great in red and the 2004 model is black.

The few differences as far as I can see a
2003 (550euro (this is -10%)) Gripshift Centera Fork Insync Odesa168 45
mm Front and rear rim Matrix 750 Bontrager Invert II | 700x38c
Saddle Oasis CRZ+

2003 (551euro) Shifters Shimano Alivio Fork RockShox Metro GPS 60mm
travel Front and rear rim Alex ACE19 (?) Bontrager Select
Invert Hardcase | 700x35c Saddle Bontrager CRZ+

The fork is slightly better I think, since it was already mounted on the
more expensive utopia model in 2003.

The differences in the wheels and tyres I do not understand. The 2004
model I saw has spokes connected to the rims in a different, i think
stronger, manner (double butted???).

Can someone help me understand the differences between both models.

Thanks, Jan



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if you're tall enough to ride a 25", it seems logical to me that you'd be
heavy enough to bottom out a 45mm fork pretty easily... just for that reason
alone you should get the new 2004?
"jbloos" wrote in message
...
I am trying to decide what gary fisher nirvana bike to buy. The XXL size
(25 inch) that I need is now available as 2003 and 2004 model. The 2003
model looks great in red and the 2004 model is black.

The few differences as far as I can see a
2003 (550euro (this is -10%)) Gripshift Centera Fork Insync Odesa168 45
mm Front and rear rim Matrix 750 Bontrager Invert II | 700x38c
Saddle Oasis CRZ+

2003 (551euro) Shifters Shimano Alivio Fork RockShox Metro GPS 60mm
travel Front and rear rim Alex ACE19 (?) Bontrager Select
Invert Hardcase | 700x35c Saddle Bontrager CRZ+

The fork is slightly better I think, since it was already mounted on the
more expensive utopia model in 2003.

The differences in the wheels and tyres I do not understand. The 2004
model I saw has spokes connected to the rims in a different, i think
stronger, manner (double butted???).

Can someone help me understand the differences between both models.

Thanks, Jan



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jbloos wrote in message ...
2003 (550euro (this is -10%)) Gripshift Centera Fork Insync Odesa168 45
mm Front and rear rim Matrix 750 Bontrager Invert II | 700x38c
Saddle Oasis CRZ+

2003 (551euro) Shifters Shimano Alivio Fork RockShox Metro GPS 60mm
travel Front and rear rim Alex ACE19 (?) Bontrager Select
Invert Hardcase | 700x35c Saddle Bontrager CRZ+

The differences in the wheels and tyres I do not understand. The 2004
model I saw has spokes connected to the rims in a different, i think
stronger, manner (double butted???).

The bikes are pretty similar. You have a tough decision!
- I prefer Shimano shifters over Gripshift, but that's just personal
preference.
- The Matrix 750 rim is a little heavier and might be stronger than
the Alex ACE19.
- The "Hardcase" tires have molded strip at the rim's edge as a
little more protection against pinch flats, but the larger air volume
of the 38mm tires gives a little more protection compared to the 35mm.
- The saddles are likely identical except for markings.
- Double butted spokes are good: lighter and help rims last longer in
fatigue.

Except for the shifting and maybe the fork, sounds like they're even
to me. Which color do you like?

Good luck!

Dianne_1234 wrote:
jbloos wrote in message
...
2003 (550euro (this is -10%)) Gripshift Centera Fork Insync Odesa168
45 mm Front and rear rim Matrix 750 Bontrager Invert II | 700x38c
Saddle Oasis CRZ+

2003 (551euro) Shifters Shimano Alivio Fork RockShox Metro GPS 60mm
travel Front and rear rim Alex ACE19 (?) Bontrager Select Invert
Hardcase | 700x35c Saddle Bontrager CRZ+

The differences in the wheels and tyres I do not understand. The 2004
model I saw has spokes connected to the rims in a different, i think
stronger, manner (double butted???).
The bikes are pretty similar. You have a tough decision!
- I prefer Shimano shifters over Gripshift, but that's just personal
preference.
- The Matrix 750 rim is a little heavier and might be stronger than the
Alex ACE19.
- The "Hardcase" tires have molded strip at the rim's edge as a little
more protection against pinch flats, but the larger air volume of the
38mm tires gives a little more protection compared to the 35mm.
- The saddles are likely identical except for markings.
- Double butted spokes are good: lighter and help rims last longer
in fatigue.
Except for the shifting and maybe the fork, sounds like they're even to
me. Which color do you like?
Good luck!




I like the red model very much, but it is the older model so that's the
problem. The black one is not bad either though. I selected the Nirvana
or Trek7300FX in the first place because these are made in the 25 inch
size, that's important for me (196 cm, 6'6"). Both are black this year
by the way.

They are very similar. In the shop, the tyres on the 2004 model where
the same as on the 2003 model. The spokes are not double butted, I
just found out. The rims are different however, and the spokes are
connected to the rims through a small bus. The spokes go through it
into the rim? Do you know how this works, I think it is easier to
maintain this type of wheel?

Thanks for the reply, Jan



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jbloos wrote in message ...
The rims are different however, and the spokes are
connected to the rims through a small bus. The spokes go through it
into the rim? Do you know how this works, I think it is easier to
maintain this type of wheel?

I'm having a hard time understanding. Got a picture?

Dianne_1234 wrote:
jbloos wrote in message
...
The rims are different however, and the spokes are connected to the
rims through a small bus. The spokes go through it into the rim? Do
you know how this works, I think it is easier to maintain this type
of wheel?
I'm having a hard time understanding. Got a picture?



I asked the man in the shop, he told me the holes for the spokes in the
Alex ACE 19 rims are extra reinforced by small cylindrical bus inserts
in these holes. That's all. I do not know how this constuction is called
in english. The tires are a bit smaller (700x35) on the 2004 model
compared to the 2003 model. That may be a reason for changing the wheel
type in the new model. Also, I found out that the Rockshox fork is not
the exactly same type used in the more expensive utopia model of 2003.

Anyway, assuming the new model will at least be slightly better equipped
and a further evolved design, I asked the shop to order the new 25" 2004
model for me to try out and see how it fits my size without obligations
(I already tried the 22.5" model). It could arrive already friday. I
will let you know how.

Thanks, Jan



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jbloos wrote in message ...
I asked the man in the shop, he told me the holes for the spokes in the
Alex ACE 19 rims are extra reinforced by small cylindrical bus inserts
in these holes.

Ah! Sockets and eyelets. They're a nice touch, and some prefer them,
but there is often no practical difference. Rims without eyelets can
last as long by using thicker walls to reinforce the rim there. In my
opinion, the two rims you've described are equivalent in that regard.

The tires are a bit smaller (700x35) on the 2004 model
compared to the 2003 model. That may be a reason for changing the wheel
type in the new model. Also, I found out that the Rockshox fork is not
the exactly same type used in the more expensive utopia model of 2003.

These are probably the differences that might matter more, but in my
opinion they are still less important than color. ;-)

Anyway, assuming the new model will at least be slightly better equipped
and a further evolved design, I asked the shop to order the new 25" 2004
model for me to try out and see how it fits my size without obligations
(I already tried the 22.5" model).

Good. Riding is a great way to compare bikes!

anonymous writes:

I asked the man in the shop, he told me the holes for the spokes in
the Alex ACE 19 rims are extra reinforced by small cylindrical bus
inserts in these holes.

Ah! Sockets and eyelets. They're a nice touch, and some prefer
them, but there is often no practical difference. Rims without
eyelets can last as long by using thicker walls to reinforce the rim
there. In my opinion, the two rims you've described are equivalent
in that regard.

A good example of whether sockets have any value is seen on the Mavic
MA-3 that has double walled bed but only eyelets. These rims although
similar in cross section to the old MA-2, the worlds most widely used
sport rim, fail as spokes break out of the single walled support.
Since there are so many eyelet only rims sold these days, people are
wondering if their spokes are too tight. That makes an about face on
wheel strength and durability.

Jobst Brandt

wrote in message ...
anonymous writes:

Ah! Sockets and eyelets. They're a nice touch, and some prefer
them, but there is often no practical difference. Rims without
eyelets can last as long by using thicker walls to reinforce the rim
there. In my opinion, the two rims you've described are equivalent
in that regard.

A good example of whether sockets have any value is seen on the Mavic
MA-3 that has double walled bed but only eyelets. These rims although
similar in cross section to the old MA-2, the worlds most widely used
sport rim, fail as spokes break out of the single walled support.
Since there are so many eyelet only rims sold these days, people are
wondering if their spokes are too tight. That makes an about face on
wheel strength and durability.

Jobst Brandt


Yes, I agree the MA3 is a good example of a rim with eyelets, that
needs sockets and eyelets. Compared to the robust MA2 with sockets and
eyelets.

However, the two rims on the bikes in questions are likely very much
like the ones shown under Products, then Trekking at
http://www.alexrims.com/ In fact, I think the Matrix 750 might
actually *be* the same rim as the Alex DA16, and I can't find a ACE19,
but ACE18 has eyelets.

The wall thickness on those two rims, and my personal experience,
suggest to me that they might have roughly equivalent spoke-hole
fatigue life.

I still say the OP could do wore than consider color as a tiebreaker.
;-)

Dianne_1234 wrote:
wrote in message
Yes, I agree the MA3 is a good example of a rim with eyelets, that
needs sockets and eyelets. Compared to the robust MA2 with sockets
and eyelets.
However, the two rims on the bikes in questions are likely very much
like the ones shown under Products, then Trekking at
http://www.alexrims.com/http://www.alexrims.com/ In fact, I think the
Matrix 750 might actually *be* the same rim as the Alex DA16, and I
can't find a ACE19, but ACE18 has eyelets.
The wall thickness on those two rims, and my personal experience,
suggest to me that they might have roughly equivalent spoke-hole
fatigue life.
I still say the OP could do wore than consider color as a
tiebreaker. ;-)



I found the ACE 19 rim under MTB sport section along with the ACE 18
rim! I do not have the background to use the extra information though.

May be they changed the rims on the 2004 model simply because a black
rim looks better on a black bike?

I'm interested how to test the bike (25 inch frame) and what is
important for a good fitting, I am 197 cm.

Thanks Jan



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