Peugeot ?

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 22:18:35 GMT, maxo wrote:

On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:46:00 -0700, Rick Warner wrote:

maxo wrote in message
...
On Sun, 05 Sep 2004 02:14:16 +0000, ZeeExSixAre wrote:

And made in China/Taiwan with inferior components...

like a lot of not so cheap Treks, Giants, Marins...

Cheap Treks are made in China; not so cheap Treks are made in the US. In
between, the frames are made in China and the bikes assembled in the US.


basically, high-end Treks are still handmade in the USA is what you're
saying. The ones using fancier construction methods.

Not quite, unless you think TIG welding steel and aluminum are
"fancier construction methods".

.. then there will
come a day when that type of frame is outsourced to China...

Many are already. Again, there are no technology differences, just
quality control differences. It is relatively easyl to pick out a
Trek TIG welded in China from one TIG welded in the US.

Is a factory frame for your basic $800 bike going to be better quality
made in China, Taiwan, Philipines, Brazil, or Denmark? I think it depends
on who owns and runs the factory and what standards they have, vs. the
nation in which it is located.

It depends on the quality that the purchaser requires, also. If the
buyer will not pay for substandard work, then the factory owner may
end up with a product he cannot sell.

How many of you in the US still own a quality US made Curtis Mathes TV?

Zenith was the last US television manufacturer.

The only thing that concerns me, all products being equal, is that
appropriate wages are paid and proper labour standards are followed.

And some of the countries mentioned above are known for abusing their
workers, having substandard working conditions, etc.

Now if I've got money to burn--I'd certainly love to spend it on my
nearest and dearest custom frame builder of course. Who wouldn't!? :P

Sure. But one does not need to go custom. There are some nice,
quality bikes in the moderate price category without going custom.

But you were the one stating that pricey ("not so cheap") Treks were
being made in China and implying that the quality of Treks was the
same as Chinese made Motobecanes. To cut to the quick, some Treks
will be down at that level, but they are the cheap, not the pricey
models. Lets do like comparisons and have a bit of honesty; implying
that "not so cheap" Treks are made in China is misleading.

- rick

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:02:17 +0000, Rick Warner wrote:

But you were the one stating that pricey ("not so cheap") Treks were
being made in China

Sure I was, but did I say the mostest fancy pantsy ones were?

and implying that the quality of Treks was the same
as Chinese made Motobecanes.

Forget implying, I'll come out and say it, I've seen both the MB and the
lower end Treks, the Motobecanes are much nicer in the weld and finish
department. You can't even get a cromo Trek at that price point anyway.

To cut to the quick, some Treks will be
down at that level, but they are the cheap, not the pricey models.

Lets do like
comparisons and have a bit of honesty; implying that "not so cheap" Treks
are made in China is misleading.

Honesty shmonesty--why are you so hung up on Treks anyway? Seems a bit
pathological. What does an entry level Trek start at? Perhaps around
300USD list for a derailleur bike? That's not a cheap bike, just an
affordable one. Anyway the terms cheap and not so cheap are too diffuse to
even argue about.

I don't work for Motobecane or bikesdirect.com, but I doubt you can find
another butted cromoly road bike for that price brand new, and it should
ride a lot nicer than the entry level aluminum boneshakers. Nothing
against aluminum--but the price point for something comfy is definitely
higher than 300 bucks.

Anyway, good luck with your job at Trek!

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 06:02:17 +0000, Rick Warner wrote:

But you were the one stating that pricey ("not so cheap") Treks were
being made in China

Sure I was, but did I say the mostest fancy pantsy ones were?

and implying that the quality of Treks was the same
as Chinese made Motobecanes.

Forget implying, I'll come out and say it, I've seen both the MB and the
lower end Treks, the Motobecanes are much nicer in the weld and finish
department. You can't even get a cromo Trek at that price point anyway.

To cut to the quick, some Treks will be
down at that level, but they are the cheap, not the pricey models.

Lets do like
comparisons and have a bit of honesty; implying that "not so cheap" Treks
are made in China is misleading.

Honesty shmonesty--why are you so hung up on Treks anyway? Seems a bit
pathological. What does an entry level Trek start at? Perhaps around
300USD list for a derailleur bike? That's not a cheap bike, just an
affordable one. Anyway the terms cheap and not so cheap are too diffuse to
even argue about.

I don't work for Motobecane or bikesdirect.com, but I doubt you can find
another butted cromoly road bike for that price brand new, and it should
ride a lot nicer than the entry level aluminum boneshakers. Nothing
against aluminum--but the price point for something comfy is definitely
higher than 300 bucks.

Anyway, good luck with your job at Trek!

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:57:39 -0700, Slavko Vorkapitch wrote:

Is Peugeot still in business ?

Still a presence in Japan. Sell nice city bikes, folding bikes for the
space-issues local market and at least one fancy-lugged road frame. They
are in general considered a bit more stylish here than the usual
"mama-chari" Chinese bike. Sell for around JPY 35,000 ( USD 300 or so
).

Also I saw a "randonneur"-style bike, fendered and with a lugged steel
frame (!) and French style front rack support - selling at the same
price. A comeback for a useful design or a retro-fad, its hard to tell
here

Anybody know a dealer in So. Cal ?

Cannot help you there, apologies.


--
Jitensha Joe

On Sat, 04 Sep 2004 12:57:39 -0700, Slavko Vorkapitch wrote:

Is Peugeot still in business ?

Still a presence in Japan. Sell nice city bikes, folding bikes for the
space-issues local market and at least one fancy-lugged road frame. They
are in general considered a bit more stylish here than the usual
"mama-chari" Chinese bike. Sell for around JPY 35,000 ( USD 300 or so
).

Also I saw a "randonneur"-style bike, fendered and with a lugged steel
frame (!) and French style front rack support - selling at the same
price. A comeback for a useful design or a retro-fad, its hard to tell
here

Anybody know a dealer in So. Cal ?

Cannot help you there, apologies.


--
Jitensha Joe

maxo wrote in message ...
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:46:00 -0700, Rick Warner wrote:

How many of you in the US still own a quality US made Curtis Mathes TV?
How many actually know or care where that box was made? :P

Talk about a blast from the past. I hadn't even herd anyone mention
Curtis Mathes in ages. Are they still made in the US? When I did
some consulting work for the US Navy they had a rule that their
computers had to be American made so they had Zenith PC's which
to tell the truth were crap. Has Curtis Mathes kept its quality
high?

The only thing that concerns me, all products being equal, is that
appropriate wages are paid and proper labour standards are followed.

To me the odds of apropriate wages and working conditions are about
nill from most of the companies used to produce our cheap consumer
goods. I absolutely agree with your sentiment. If I buy some tennis
shoes I would like to know that they weren't made by the children of
political prisioners. I'd also prefer to pay $4-5 gal for biodiesel
and support our farmers than fill up on cheap gas and make
multinationals rich while funding terrorist. As you can probably
guess my next car will probably be a TDI Volkswagon though biodiesel
isn't on any pumps near me.

Now if I've got money to burn--I'd certainly love to spend it on my
nearest and dearest custom frame builder of course. Who wouldn't!? :P

Y'know custom frames don't have to be that expensive. A lot of
custom builders will make you a frame for the same price as a high
end production frame.
--
Bruce Jackson

On Wed, 08 Sep 2004 10:12:32 -0700, Bruce Jackson wrote:

maxo wrote in message
...
On Tue, 07 Sep 2004 10:46:00 -0700, Rick Warner wrote:

Has Curtis Mathes kept its quality high?

LOL, I hadn't even thought of them in over 20 years--that comment was dug
from my memory hole.


The only thing that concerns me, all products being equal, is that
appropriate wages are paid and proper labour standards are followed.

If I buy some tennis shoes I
would like to know that they weren't made by the children of political
prisioners.

and so on--totally agree. I mean--it's much cheaper to begin with
manufacturing in China and other nations where the dollar goes
further--why not enforce standards and pay a decent wage? What would
that add to the cost of a pair of sneakers? A buck?


I'd also prefer to pay $4-5 gal for biodiesel and support
our farmers than fill up on cheap gas and make multinationals rich while
funding terrorist. As you can probably guess my next car will probably
be a TDI Volkswagon though biodiesel isn't on any pumps near me.

We almost got the TDI Jetta Wagon, but could only find a used 2001 regular
gas one in our price range. Nice ride btw. The diesels are fantastic
mileage wise and CO2-wise, but I'd feel a bit guilty about tooting out
particulates driving one in the big city. (and get over it after the first
fill up LOL) but hey, it'll smell like fries.

Now if I've got money to burn--I'd certainly
love to spend it on my
nearest and dearest custom frame builder of course. Who wouldn't!? :P

Y'know custom frames don't have to be that expensive. A lot of custom
builders will make you a frame for the same price as a high end
production frame.

I know I know, just not in the budget now. Compared to messing with
motorbikes or that eccentric sport they call golf, cycling is rather
affordable.

I'm a retro-grouch in a mild Riv. style-so I may save up and get a
Romulus or similar frame and build out something frictiony. Something
sporty with full braze ons. I don't need anything fully custom, though
fancy painted lugs are always nice. Of course we all know that a nice
paint job can easily cost as much as the frame itself. :/

maxo wrote in message ...

Honesty shmonesty--why are you so hung up on Treks anyway? Seems a bit
pathological.

Not hung up on Treks, just correct information.

I don't work for Motobecane or bikesdirect.com, but I doubt you can find
another butted cromoly road bike for that price brand new, and it should
ride a lot nicer than the entry level aluminum boneshakers. Nothing
against aluminum--but the price point for something comfy is definitely
higher than 300 bucks.

My problems with the current Motobecane offerings are not with some
them being steel. I like steel. Do not like that the company and its
dealers are subtly trying to make people think they are French bikes.
Only thing French about the current bikes is the name. Company does
not make it clear that they are selling asian made bikes with zero
relationship to the traditional Motobecanes of decades past.

Back to the part about steel. Again your posting is in part
deceptive. Your message makes it sound like all current Motobecane
road bikes are steel. In fact, most are either aluminum,
aluminum/titanium alloy (kinesium) or one the aluminum based metals
with carbon stays. Not a lot of steel in their current line-up; they
seem to be more into "aluminum boneshakers".

And where are you going to find "something comfy" for under $300?
None of the Motobecanes list under that. Your reference to
bikesdirect.com takes me to their site, where the current cheapest
road bike is $550, and no idea if it is 'comfy' but I am sure that
$550 is more than $300.

So I have to ponder, why are you so hung up on pushing asian made
bikes with French names, and implying that they are priced much less
than they are in reality? I sense some hidden agenda.

Anyway, good luck with your job at Trek!

Don't work at Trek, or for any company in the bike business, as a
matter of record. I like the old Treks (pre-1991), and admire that
the company has kept a significant chunk of their manufacturing in the
US.

As for me, for my bikes I either rescue old steel frames, or have
custom steel frames made. If I bought a new frame it would likely be
either a Waterford or a Heron, again steel. Only relationship of the
latter two brands to Trek is that they are brazed in Waterford,
Wisconsin, same place as Trek has its headquarters.

- rick

"Rick Warner" wrote in message

My problems with the current Motobecane offerings are not with some
them being steel. I like steel. Do not like that the company and its
dealers are subtly trying to make people think they are French bikes.
Only thing French about the current bikes is the name. Company does
not make it clear that they are selling asian made bikes with zero
relationship to the traditional Motobecanes of decades past.

Lots of that going around (e.g. Schwinn -- after going bankrupt twice, not a
lot of connection to their past history). Often the last "asset" a company
has that's marketable is their name, which is worth money for a while.

As for me, for my bikes I either rescue old steel frames, or have
custom steel frames made. If I bought a new frame it would likely be
either a Waterford or a Heron, again steel. Only relationship of the
latter two brands to Trek is that they are brazed in Waterford,
Wisconsin, same place as Trek has its headquarters.

But, in Schwinn's case you CAN still find some of the heritage, as there is
at least one Schwinn family member active in Waterford (which is an old
high-end Schwinn factory).
http://www.waterfordbikes.com/2004/d...ford/index.php

According to the link below, some similar name-stripping happened to
Peugeot; it's a forum posting, so its credibility isn't guaranteed:

"Genuine French Peugeot bicycle production ended almost 20 years ago. I
believe a Canadian firm (CCM?)bought rights to the marque, but I think their
bicycle production os now moribund, as well."

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=38979

See also http://www.procycle.com/en/about_us.asp which looks like the parent
company of CCM.

Rick Warner wrote:

...
As for me, for my bikes I either rescue old steel frames, or have
custom steel frames made. If I bought a new frame it would likely be
either a Waterford or a Heron, again steel. Only relationship of the
latter two brands to Trek is that they are brazed in Waterford,
Wisconsin, same place as Trek has its headquarters.

Trek is based in Waterloo, Wisconsin.

--
Tom Sherman