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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park



 
 
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  #21  
Old September 6th 07, 02:13 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,ca.environment,rec.backcountry,rec.bicycles.soc,sci.environment
y_p_w
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Posts: 102
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park

On Sep 5, 4:53 pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
wrote:
Mike, your ignorance of wildlife and factless statements become irritating.


True.

While black bear attacks on humans are rather rare, as a carnivore, they can
and do attack humans from time to time. The probability of an attack is
measured in the 1 to 400 million or more (given the number of recreational
visitor days a year in black bear country).


I assume all of that is correct. I don't see it as
significant, one way or another. If you are in bear
country... *do* be concerned.

The motivation for the attack
can range from protecting cubs (and yes I would suggest this is one of the
more common reasons),


That is common _only_ for brown bears.


The black bear incident reports I've read show a high proportion of
attacks were by sows with cubs. It may not be "common" in absolute
numbers, but seem to be common as far as (generally rare) black bear
attacks go.

to being startled or surprised by human (usually
hikers on a trail) appearing in their path,


Again, _only_ for brown bears.


Not being startled seems to be important. I love hearing the stories
of bear researchers monitoring black bears with spotting scopes. The
one story that was intriguing was about hikers on the trail. The
bears were extremely aware of the humans in the area (moved away
accordingly), but the hikers had no idea there were bears.



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  #22  
Old September 6th 07, 04:24 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Ist-e Mundus, Furia bundus
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Posts: 42
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park



How do you know it was defending cubs? The article only says "may have
been", and that there was a report of a bear with two cubs. No guarantee
it
was the same bear as "bears are not uncommon at the park". There you go
leaping to conclusions again, reaffirming your status as the primo
number
one twit-extraordinaire on usenet.

It's a well-known fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to
defend their cubs. Do you think it was offended by the color of his
outfit?!
--

You're joking, right? Well known fact? I've rarely heard such a sweeping
and baseless statement, but I should expect it from you. Black bears are
more unpredictable than grizzlies, and more likely to attack without
provocation. That is not to say there was no provocation in this incident,
intentional or otherwise. To say "It's a well-known fact that black bears
don't attack humans, except to
defend their cubs." is absolute stupidity and is a classic display of
your near complete ignorance.


I notice that you can't given even ONE other reason.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)


I mistakenly believed you read the other posts indicating the probability
that the dogs were a provocation, although bears do not always need
provocation. Silly me, thinking that you are capable of thinking. Back to
the original response. Are you actually serious about the "It's a well-known
fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend their cubs."
crap? Was that simply grasping at straws, snatched from the air, made or
otherwise dreamed up? Well, it doesn't really matter since you have zero
credibility in any event.



  #23  
Old September 6th 07, 05:12 AM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Bill Z.
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Posts: 1,556
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park

"Ist-e Mundus, Furia bundus" writes:
other posters quotes snipped

Are you actually serious about the "It's a well-known
fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend their cubs."
crap?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade:

" It should be noted that black bear biologists consider black
bear attacks as very rare. Fewer people are killed by black
bears than slip and fall accidents, traffic accidents and
lightning."

One black-bear related injury that occurred in Yosemite was due to
some guy hanging his food from the limb of a tree and pitching a
tent right below it. A bear cub went out on the limb to try to
get it, fell off, and landed on the guy, breaking some ribs.

Some incidents may have been caused by keeping food in the tent.
The bear might have been after the food with the attack being
incidental or the result of being surprised.

That doesn't, of course, mean that unprovoked attacks by black bears
are impossible, but they are very rare occurrences.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB
  #24  
Old September 6th 07, 04:33 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
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Posts: 4,798
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park

On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:05:35 -0700, y_p_w wrote:

On Sep 4, 9:19 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:46:48 wrote:
On Sep 4, 2:29 pm, Bruce Jensen wrote:
On Sep 4, 1:46 wrote:


WTF?


Tell that to the family in Utah whose 11 year old was dragged out of
their tent and killed in June by a male black bear. Male black bears
aren't known for being protective of their cubs. Some are known to
attack cubs, which could include their own young.


Yeah, but we are not at this point talking specfiically about a male
or female bear. There is a reasonable chance that the bear in
question was a female with cubs, based on other testimony. At the
very least, it was surprised.


The Utah incident above also involved some questionable human-food
handling, IIRC.


Sure. However - the attack was for a different reason than a black
bear sow defending its cubs.


I don't know that that was an "attack". It was probably simply
following the smell of food.


Dragging an 11 year old 400 yards from a tent was an attack.


BS. He was taking what he thought was food to his picnic area. If he
wanted to "attack" the kid, there would be no need to move him.

Possibly
one that could have been avoided, but still an attack. Bears have
been known to claw/bite people if they think they can get food.

I notice that you haven't offered any other reason for a black bear to
attack a human, even though you say there are such reasons.


Are you freaking kidding me? They'll attack when startled. I've read
of numerous incidents where someone was clawed or bitten when a bear
was surprised by a person while it was going through garbage/food. My
favorite stories are about idiots feeding bears that just turned on
them. Some attacks have been seemly random, like the Cherokee
National Forest mauling in 2006. That was just a family on the trail,
attacked by a male bear. It was also exceedingly rare.

http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_87516.asp

I posted this earlier, but I guess it's not valid if it doesn't
validate your ill-advised statements:

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/be...incidents.html

"Los Angeles County, July 2003 - A male hiker was knocked down by a
bear at a remote campsite along the Pacific Crest Trail in the Angeles
National Forest. The hiker had just reached the camp, which was empty,
dropped his pack on a picnic table, and was looking for a place to
hang his food. As he walked back toward the pack, he heard a noise
behind him. As he turned he was knocked to the ground by a bear. After
standing over him for a few seconds, the bear grabbed the backpack and
began dragging it off. The man shouted at the bear and threw rocks
until the bear finally retreated without the backpack. The hiker
received only minor bruises and was not seriously hurt.

Los Angeles County, July 2001 - A woman was bitten on the arm by a
bear at a county-run tree farm near La Verne. The bear, which was
earlier spotted climbing on a nearby trash can, reportedly walked up
to the woman while she was seated at a picnic table and bit her on the
arm. The woman was treated at a hospital for puncture wounds. The bear
was later shot and killed by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies.
The bear weighed approximately 85 pounds and was estimated at one to
two years of age.

Trinity County, May 1986 - A 35-year old man was attacked at around 3
a.m. while camping in a tent in the Trinity Alps Wilderness. The
victim felt that he was caught in the middle of a fight between two
boars when one bear attacked him in his tent. The bear left when the
victim hit the bear with a tentpole. Two bears then returned and acted
aggressively toward each another before they finally left. The victim
sustained several puncture wounds to his shoulder and lacerations to
the back of his head.

Siskiyou County, September 1986 - A long-time resident of a small
rural community was injured while feeding a bear at his residence. The
victim had been feeding bears at this location for more than 30
years."


So that's just incidental to feeding (getting competitors for the food
out of the way). It's not an "attack" on a person.
--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #25  
Old September 6th 07, 04:39 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,ca.environment,rec.backcountry,rec.bicycles.soc,sci.environment
Mike Vandeman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,798
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 22:53:04 GMT, wrote:

Mike, your ignorance of wildlife and factless statements become irritating.
While black bear attacks on humans are rather rare, as a carnivore, they can
and do attack humans from time to time. The probability of an attack is
measured in the 1 to 400 million or more (given the number of recreational
visitor days a year in black bear country). The motivation for the attack
can range from protecting cubs (and yes I would suggest this is one of the
more common reasons), to being startled or surprised by human (usually
hikers on a trail) appearing in their path, to viewing humans as a
competitor (i.e., protecting a food source) to even viewing humans in very
rare cases as a form of food (what appears to have happen in Utah).


I doubt it. He peobably smelled human food on & near the boy. Did the
bear eat the whole kid?

The
bear in Utah had apparently bothered someone in a tent the previous day and
the bear did not stumble into the tent looking for food, sliced the tent
open and took the boy (much as they do fawns) off into the brush to eat him.
I can provide reasonable assurance, he was not frisking the boy for a PB&J,
but actually viewed him as food.


You haven't provided a shred of evidence, just opinion. If 99.99% of
bears don't see humans as food, but only as a source of human food,
it's very unlikely that one bear would be different.

We are left with a great deal of
uncertainty as to why this particular bear saw this boy in this case as food
as these types of events are rare and therefore we lack any statistical
reason to account for it. The crazy bear theory is as good as any. Some
carnivores (as a species) are rather aggressive toward humans such as
leopards, tigers and African lions, while others only rarely cross that line
- black bears fall into the latter category.

While it is not unreasonable to querry the use the lethal option in this
case - keep in mind, Wildlife Services and timber companies are killing
thousands of bears a year for girdling trees, while sport hunters throughout
North America are killing several thousand more. In addition, state game
agencies in North America are killing several hundred more bears because of
bear-human conflicts. Placed into context, the loss of one bear from a mt.
biker pales when compared to the thousands upon thousands of bears killed
because of real or percieved conflicts with humans on foot.


As usual, your argument is that because lots of bears are being
killed, one more is harmless. Of course, that doesn't logically
follow. It's just typical human rationalization.

ummm, do you think Mikey has lost all perceptive. Yeah.

--
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of!

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
  #26  
Old September 6th 07, 06:25 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
y_p_w
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park

On Sep 6, 8:33 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:05:35 -0700, y_p_w wrote:
On Sep 4, 9:19 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:46:48 wrote:
On Sep 4, 2:29 pm, Bruce Jensen wrote:
On Sep 4, 1:46 wrote:


WTF?


Tell that to the family in Utah whose 11 year old was dragged out of
their tent and killed in June by a male black bear. Male black bears
aren't known for being protective of their cubs. Some are known to
attack cubs, which could include their own young.


Yeah, but we are not at this point talking specfiically about a male
or female bear. There is a reasonable chance that the bear in
question was a female with cubs, based on other testimony. At the
very least, it was surprised.


The Utah incident above also involved some questionable human-food
handling, IIRC.


Sure. However - the attack was for a different reason than a black
bear sow defending its cubs.


I don't know that that was an "attack". It was probably simply
following the smell of food.


Dragging an 11 year old 400 yards from a tent was an attack.


BS. He was taking what he thought was food to his picnic area. If he
wanted to "attack" the kid, there would be no need to move him.

Possibly



one that could have been avoided, but still an attack. Bears have
been known to claw/bite people if they think they can get food.


I notice that you haven't offered any other reason for a black bear to
attack a human, even though you say there are such reasons.


Are you freaking kidding me? They'll attack when startled. I've read
of numerous incidents where someone was clawed or bitten when a bear
was surprised by a person while it was going through garbage/food. My
favorite stories are about idiots feeding bears that just turned on
them. Some attacks have been seemly random, like the Cherokee
National Forest mauling in 2006. That was just a family on the trail,
attacked by a male bear. It was also exceedingly rare.


http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_87516.asp


I posted this earlier, but I guess it's not valid if it doesn't
validate your ill-advised statements:


http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/be...incidents.html


"Los Angeles County, July 2003 - A male hiker was knocked down by a
bear at a remote campsite along the Pacific Crest Trail in the Angeles
National Forest. The hiker had just reached the camp, which was empty,
dropped his pack on a picnic table, and was looking for a place to
hang his food. As he walked back toward the pack, he heard a noise
behind him. As he turned he was knocked to the ground by a bear. After
standing over him for a few seconds, the bear grabbed the backpack and
began dragging it off. The man shouted at the bear and threw rocks
until the bear finally retreated without the backpack. The hiker
received only minor bruises and was not seriously hurt.


Los Angeles County, July 2001 - A woman was bitten on the arm by a
bear at a county-run tree farm near La Verne. The bear, which was
earlier spotted climbing on a nearby trash can, reportedly walked up
to the woman while she was seated at a picnic table and bit her on the
arm. The woman was treated at a hospital for puncture wounds. The bear
was later shot and killed by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies.
The bear weighed approximately 85 pounds and was estimated at one to
two years of age.


Trinity County, May 1986 - A 35-year old man was attacked at around 3
a.m. while camping in a tent in the Trinity Alps Wilderness. The
victim felt that he was caught in the middle of a fight between two
boars when one bear attacked him in his tent. The bear left when the
victim hit the bear with a tentpole. Two bears then returned and acted
aggressively toward each another before they finally left. The victim
sustained several puncture wounds to his shoulder and lacerations to
the back of his head.


Siskiyou County, September 1986 - A long-time resident of a small
rural community was injured while feeding a bear at his residence. The
victim had been feeding bears at this location for more than 30
years."


So that's just incidental to feeding (getting competitors for the food
out of the way). It's not an "attack" on a person.


Knocking/clawing/biting someone to get to food is still an attack,
even if just part of a plan to secure food. If someone punches/clubs
another person in order to steal a wallet, is that not an "attack"?
There are also plenty of documented incidents of bears injuring/
attacking people where there was no food being fought over nor cubs to
defend.

And I see you have no answer for the 2006 Cherokee National Forest
black bear attack. Again - male bear. No food being raided.

http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/...ar-attack.html

Here's a known predatory attack:

http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/...ar-attack.html

"Subsequent necropsies preformed at the University of Tennessee
confirmed that both bears the rangers killed had fed on Ms. Bradley
and were most likely the bears that had killed her. The bears were not
emaciated and the necropsies did not reveal any underlying health
issues with the bears that may have contributed to the attack. This
lead officials to believe the attack was a predatory."

Certainly I'm not trying to employ any scare tactics against people
visiting the woods. Incidents like this are extremely rare, but I'm
not going to sit by while the completely wrong statement "It's a well-
known fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend
their cubs." is passed on as the truth.

  #27  
Old September 6th 07, 07:24 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,ca.environment,rec.backcountry,rec.bicycles.soc,sci.environment
[email protected]
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Posts: 57
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park


On 6-Sep-2007, Mike Vandeman wrote:

On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 22:53:04 GMT, wrote:

Mike, your ignorance of wildlife and factless statements become
irritating.
While black bear attacks on humans are rather rare, as a carnivore, they
can
and do attack humans from time to time. The probability of an attack is
measured in the 1 to 400 million or more (given the number of
recreational
visitor days a year in black bear country). The motivation for the
attack
can range from protecting cubs (and yes I would suggest this is one of
the
more common reasons), to being startled or surprised by human (usually
hikers on a trail) appearing in their path, to viewing humans as a
competitor (i.e., protecting a food source) to even viewing humans in
very
rare cases as a form of food (what appears to have happen in Utah).


I doubt it. He peobably smelled human food on & near the boy. Did the
bear eat the whole kid?


He had fed on the kid but was killed before he devoured him.


he
bear in Utah had apparently bothered someone in a tent the previous day
and
the bear did not stumble into the tent looking for food, sliced the tent
open and took the boy (much as they do fawns) off into the brush to eat
him.
I can provide reasonable assurance, he was not frisking the boy for a
PB&J,
but actually viewed him as food.


You haven't provided a shred of evidence, just opinion. If 99.99% of
bears don't see humans as food, but only as a source of human food,
it's very unlikely that one bear would be different.


There have been 53 documented mauling deaths by black bears between 1900
and 2003 (and a couple since then) in all of North America. In the grand
scheme
of things very rare, but not zero. Bears while
carnivores tend to have an omivorous diet, but meat is very much part of it
as
they can be signficant predators on elk calves and deer fawns. Bears (as
all wildlife)
are not born with a moral compass which they some how know it is wrong to
kill a human
(as they might an elk calve, fawn or other prey they regularly feed on).
While we can say
with certainty (read that as statistically) that bears do not view humans as
food -
they rarely (as I note in the 1 to 400 million or so plus range) attack us
and sometimes
their motivation as we have been able to determine is predatory in nature -
that
is factual - I suggest you review the available data bases on documented
deaths before you continue to act stupid. I said it is rare, but not zero.
What is surprising and interesting is why some predators (leopards, tigers,
African lion)
more commonly kill people, while other larger carnivores (cougars and black
bears to name a couple) rarely do. Many scientist suggest a strong genetic
component (e.g., Vancouver Island an area of 12,000 square miles has more
cougar
attacks by 2 than California which has nearly 100,000 square miles of cougar
habitat
one hypothesis is the population of cougars on VI ended up with a more
aggressive strain -
founder effect) to agressive behavior. You are right to suggest attacks
are rare, but dead ass wrong to argue black bears ( a predator) never
attacks humans
because they see us as prey.


As usual, your argument is that because lots of bears are being
killed, one more is harmless. Of course, that doesn't logically
follow. It's just typical human rationalization.


Again, you have no reading comprehension. I did not say one more is
harmless as I
clearly stated debates about relying soley on lethal options are very valid,
but I did
state that one more is ecologically insignificant. We (meaning society)
kills
about 10,000 (or more) black bears a year - in the last ten years that means
we humans have killed in the neighborhood of 100,000 (or more bears) and a
mt.
biker was responsible for 1. Hikers and people on foot are responsible for
most of the rest

Umm, I will waste band width on a red-herring or maybe work
on a much more difficult problem and try and effect a broad change
on how society as a whole affects large predators.

We all know Mikey's choice and how irrelevant he is.


if you want to have an affect,
figure out how to reduce the human caused mortality by a bunch.
  #28  
Old September 6th 07, 08:23 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Puppet_Sock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park

On Sep 3, 12:23 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
[snip]
Spokesman Ron Powers said a 51-year-old Port Orchard man was biking
with his two dogs alongside him when the dogs ran ahead and around the
bend, then started barking fiercely. The man turned the bend and saw
the dogs were barking at a bear.


Is this git going to be punished for breaking park rules?

http://www.kitsapgov.com/parks/herit...st%20rules.htm

Animals: Pets, horses and domesticated animals allowed
on designated trails only - leashed.


He was in a leash area with two loose dogs.

It's only a possibility, but I'm wondering if the bear was trying to
cross the trail ahead of the biker, and the dogs caused it to panic.
If the dogs had not run ahead, the bear might have just gone
off into the woods and nobody would ever have known it was around.

Result: He was injured, the bear is likely to be killed, and one
of his dogs may be dead in the woods. Plus a lot of disruption
for the park, and probably over time for the park employees.

It's not a story about a mountain biker at all. It's a story about
a git who thinks the world is his dog's toilet.
Socks

  #29  
Old September 6th 07, 08:26 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.backcountry,ca.environment,sci.environment
Puppet_Sock
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park

On Sep 6, 12:12 am, (Bill Z.) wrote:
[snip]
One black-bear related injury that occurred in Yosemite was due to
some guy hanging his food from the limb of a tree and pitching a
tent right below it. A bear cub went out on the limb to try to
get it, fell off, and landed on the guy, breaking some ribs.


I should know better than to read the news groups in the office.
Now I have to explain the noise I made when I read that.
Socks

  #30  
Old September 6th 07, 08:50 PM posted to alt.mountain-bike,ca.environment,rec.backcountry,rec.bicycles.soc,sci.environment
You
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 32
Default Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park

In article ,
wrote:

While black bear attacks on humans are rather rare, as a carnivore,


actually Black Bears are Omnivores.....
 




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