Switzerland mountain roads questions

Ken Roberts has brought this to us :
Martin Borsje wrote
This road [over Grosse Scheidegg] is paved - actually the climb from the
other side (Meiringen) is far more beautiful

I do not agree. Wait till you see my photographs. My opinion is that the east
side up from Meiringen is a worthwhile climb, indeed with spectacular views
higher up. But the climb up the west side on bike route 61 (not the main
road) from Interlaken to Grindelwald is overwhelmingly great - (some on dirt,
but the majority paved) - at least the day I did it.

. . (Funny when I reached Grosse Scheidegg just a few weeks ago, I met four
riders from the Netherlands who had ridden up the east side from Meiringen. I
told them right there at the pass that it was too bad they missed riding up
the west side thru Grindelwald. Then I rode down the east side toward
Meiringen, and I was even more convinced that the west side was better --
and then I met them again at a restaurant, since they descended the same way
they came up.)

North part of Sanetsch is heavily unpaved, you have to carry your bike or
take the cable car.

Thanks for the warning. So did you descend the south side back down the same
way? or cross over north?

Ken

/ and \ south

wrote in message
...
Ken Roberts wrote:

I've gotten to sample riding some of the high passes and mountain
roads of Switzerland, and now I've got some questions about it.

(a) What is your favorite high road or pass to ride? What is it that
you like so much about that one?

There is only one worth repeating over and over again... and then thee
is the second.

Stelvio and Gavia!!! Don't miss them if you ever ride the Alps.

For sheer adventure and remoteness, Col de la Seigne and Col Ferret on
the south side of Mont Blanc are memorably great passes.

http://tinyurl.com/dr4ot

Jobst Brandt

Coming in to this thread a bit late, but got a question. I'll be
bringing my son with me to the Alps during the '09 TdF, staying in
either Chambery or Albertville. We'll have a rental car, plus the train
is an option for getting around as well. Any recommendations for
something truly memorable and a bit unexpected? Sure, he wants to ride
Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him out on a true paved goat
path.

He climbs well, but not really fast (he's still built more like a
linebacker than a cyclist).

Thanks-

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

I've gotten to sample riding some of the high passes and mountain
roads of Switzerland, and now I've got some questions about it.

(a) What is your favorite high road or pass to ride? What is it
that you like so much about that one?

There is only one worth repeating over and over again... and then
thee is the second.

Stelvio and Gavia!!! Don't miss them if you ever ride the Alps.

For sheer adventure and remoteness, Col de la Seigne and Col Ferret
on the south side of Mont Blanc are memorably great passes.

http://tinyurl.com/dr4ot

Coming in to this thread a bit late, but got a question. I'll be
bringing my son with me to the Alps during the '09 TdF, staying in
either Chambery or Albertville. We'll have a rental car, plus the
train is an option for getting around as well. Any recommendations
for something truly memorable and a bit unexpected? Sure, he wants
to ride Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him out on a true
paved goat path.

He climbs well, but not really fast (he's still built more like a
linebacker than a cyclist).

As I recall, he needs a bit of dietary guidance and more miles to get
back into his youthful athletic form. Forget about the TdF, it's a
bore and better seen on TV if you really have to watch this excess of
hype. Stay as far from the route as you can to avoid full hotels and
odious crowds.

Most of the famous climbs are famous for their continuous exposed
grade and ugly landscape. For sheer beauty think Gavia, Stelvio, the
Dolomites, Slovenia, Gross Glockner, and of course via Mala between
Splügen and Thusis, Susten, Rosenlaui-Grosse Scheidegg, and many more
that you never hear of in the press.

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/...r_of_the_Alps/

Pick your favorite route and don't worry about the Tour de Suisse, it
will go by without road closures and all the hype.

Jobst Brandt

Any recommendations for something truly memorable and a bit unexpected?
Sure, he wants to ride Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him out on
a true paved goat path.

around Chambery and Albertville, in daytrip range with rental car:

closest thing I know around there to a high "paved goat path" (but only
partly paved):
* drive from Chambery / Albertville to Bourg St Maurice, then partway up the
Cormet de Roseland road, park near the junction for Val des Glaciers. Ride
the single-lane road up the Val des Glaciers as far as you want to ride
(starts paved, then turns to dirt, eventually single-track) - (I rode on my
road bike at least as far as the Refuge des Mottets hut) -- and then hike as
far up to Col de la Seigne (mentioned by Jobst) as you want to hike. Great
views of the snowy Aiguille des Glaciers peak, cows, sheep, etc., views of
Mont Blanc as get higher toward the col. Optionally go partway down
northeast side into Italy to another hut.
photos lower half of this page: http://roberts-1.com/t/b06/mb
photos of some other riding below: http://roberts-1.com/t/b07/f/k

* just ride around thru the farms and vineyards and villages south of
Chambery. For finding the paved single-lane roads (? goat paths, or more
likely former cow paths ?), best to have a 1:25000 maps. I've got some
favorite short routes I could point you to. But perhaps it would be more fun
to get lost on your own, and I could just suggest which maps to buy at one
of the local shops.

* Cormet de Roselend with side trips to Col du Pre and Val des Glaciers is
one of the prettier road passes in France. Since you have a rental car, you
could skip the boring sections lower down -- park as mentioned previously
for Val des Glaciers + Col de la Seigne.

* the Versant du Soleil "balcon" route between Aime and Bourg St Maurice.
Perhaps once a "goat path" across the hillsides, but now on well-paved roads
thru quiet villages with views across the valley to the north slopes
(hopefully still with some snow) + some fun descents on the way to Bourg St
Maurice. Then Sharon and I finished our loop on a fun single-lane paved path
along the whitewater Isere river.

* drive your son partway up the north side of Col de Galibier (at least as
far as Valloire -- skip the Col de Telegraphe climb -- possibly ? Plan
Lachat at the bottom of the main steep section -- or higher up depending on
how sore his legs are from the day before). Then you drive over Galibier and
Lauteret and down to La Grave and you climb the south side of Galibier and
descend the same way. While he climbs over and descends to Lauteret, then
thru La Grave to Bourg d'Oisans. You join him for part of the descent to
Bourg d'Oisans, then climb back up to La Grave to get the car. While he
(optionally) starts climbing up l'Alpe d'Huez.
So the idea is that he's doing the finish of the famous "la Marmotte" event,
without riding the whole course. I think the descent from Lauteret to Bourg
d'Oisans is very exciting and fun.
(another option could be the east side of Col de la Croix de Fer, perhaps
you could drive your son up to start just above the village of St Sorlin
d'Arves (because the steepest section is climbing through the village). Or
could start lower around the junction for Col Mollard.)

* drive the autoroute southeast from Albertville toward Modane, but instead
of going to Italy, continue east up the Haute Maurienne valley to around
Bessans, then ride to Bonneval sur Arc (oldest village in the French Alps?)
as a warmup, and continue up the south side of Col de l'Iseran (highest
paved true col in Europe). Optionally ride partway down the north side
(depends on your aversion to ski lifts). Hopefully lots of snow still close
by (or at least visible) in July.
While you're in the Haute Maurienne area, could ride or drive up from
Lanslebourg to Col du Mont Cenis, then ride back and forth above the lake
(American riders seem to either love or hate that lake), optionally partway
down the south side toward Susa, Italy.

way further south in France, not in daytrip range from Chambery:

outside of France . . .

base around Interlaken - Meiringen - Innertkirchen, Switzerland:
* bike route 61 between Interlaken and Grindelwald and Grosse Scheidegg --
majority is single-lane paved, some single-lane dirt/gravel road, some short
sections of single-track trail alongside a roaring river. (actually I
climbed it all on my road bike no problem). Quiet mountain villages, cows,
goats, amazing views of the Eiger and Wetterhorn mountains. Gets sustained
steep near the top. So there's the alternative . . .
Take the post-bus as high as a you need to based on leg soreness (bike racks
on the back of the bus). You can't drive your son to the top because normal
vehicle traffic is not permitted on the top section.
optionally ride down the east side as far as you want, then climb back up
and do the descent.
(Jobst mentioned the very spectacular Grosse Scheidegg, but not the
interesting and varied bike rt 61.)

Nearby also is the climb on the west side of Sustenpass (mentioned by
Jobst) -- spectacular snowy mountains, several short tunnels, interesting
varied curves -- way prettier and more interesting than Alpe d'Huez. (does
your son really "need" to do l'Alpe d'Huez?) With rental car your son could
start higher say around Gadmen. (I'd say the lakes on north side of Grimsel
pass are also memorable on a blue-sky day, again could start climbing
higher, and it might not be harmful to go further and descend south to
Gletsch and even partway up the west side of Furka pass.

Also cable railway high up to the snowy Jungfraujoch (not for bikes),
possible famous mountain climb(s) with professional guide (very memorable
but rather expensive), various non-guided hikes around the mountains, often
using aid of ski lifts and/or post-bus. Likely some other exciting +
spectacular mountain bike trails.

Dolomites and/or Stelvio in Italy:
* lots of truly memorable spectacular riding. Not many "paved goat paths"
(except what Sergio mentioned earlier?) -- the former goat paths have now
been turned into nicely-paved roads.
I haven't done it, but the Sottoguda gorge near Passo Fedaia is supposed to
be an interesting narrow road (but short?), and I've heard it's now closed
to cars.

* while you're there, do some of the great hikes in the Dolomites. (?
unpaved goat paths ?)

* hire a guide if necessary and rent equipment and purchase guidebooks to do
some of the amazingly great "via ferrata" rock climbs in the Dolomites.
Exciting paths in spectacular very steep places way beyond what a goat could
handle.
(There's also some via ferrata climbing routes in France (and Switzerland),
but I haven't done any yet. But most people think northeast Italy has the
best collection).

Ken

==========
As I recall, he needs a bit of dietary guidance and more miles to get
back into his youthful athletic form. Forget about the TdF, it's a
bore and better seen on TV if you really have to watch this excess of
hype. Stay as far from the route as you can to avoid full hotels and
odious crowds.
==========

Jobst: Perhaps you have forgotten what it was like to be a teenager? For
my son, the 'Tour is non-stop fun. He enjoys being able to ride past
cars creeping along en route to the race, he loves being amongst
thousands of cyclists who basically own the roads, and is greatly
motivated by the crowds cheering him on as he rides up the Aubisque or
Port du Bales. He even gets a kick out of the caravan, and in just one
session managed to master the art of snagging bottles from the Aquarel
car (which took me several times to figure out that you really had to be
aggressive).

This isn't a tour like you would do; you'd certainly be staying in
places that have more character, while I do France on the cheap and stay
at Etaps and look for the closest Monoprix to buy supplies. We'll be
renting a car (which we'll try to use as little as possible, favoring
riding & trains to get to our destinations & back).

More miles would definitely be a good thing for him, but that's tough to
do after LaCross season begins (practice every weekday from 5pm-7:30pm
with studying between school and practice).

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com




wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

I've gotten to sample riding some of the high passes and mountain
roads of Switzerland, and now I've got some questions about it.

(a) What is your favorite high road or pass to ride? What is it
that you like so much about that one?

There is only one worth repeating over and over again... and then
thee is the second.

Stelvio and Gavia!!! Don't miss them if you ever ride the Alps.

For sheer adventure and remoteness, Col de la Seigne and Col Ferret
on the south side of Mont Blanc are memorably great passes.

http://tinyurl.com/dr4ot

Coming in to this thread a bit late, but got a question. I'll be
bringing my son with me to the Alps during the '09 TdF, staying in
either Chambery or Albertville. We'll have a rental car, plus the
train is an option for getting around as well. Any recommendations
for something truly memorable and a bit unexpected? Sure, he wants
to ride Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him out on a true
paved goat path.

He climbs well, but not really fast (he's still built more like a
linebacker than a cyclist).

As I recall, he needs a bit of dietary guidance and more miles to get
back into his youthful athletic form. Forget about the TdF, it's a
bore and better seen on TV if you really have to watch this excess of
hype. Stay as far from the route as you can to avoid full hotels and
odious crowds.

Most of the famous climbs are famous for their continuous exposed
grade and ugly landscape. For sheer beauty think Gavia, Stelvio, the
Dolomites, Slovenia, Gross Glockner, and of course via Mala between
Splügen and Thusis, Susten, Rosenlaui-Grosse Scheidegg, and many more
that you never hear of in the press.

http://www.trentobike.org/Countries/..._the_Alps/Pick your favorite route and don't worry about the Tour de Suisse, itwill go by without road closures and all the hype.Jobst Brandt

Great stuff here; I'll have some questions for you shortly!

Thanks-

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
Any recommendations for something truly memorable and a bit
unexpected?
Sure, he wants to ride Alpe d'Huez, but it would be fun to get him
out on
a true paved goat path.

around Chambery and Albertville, in daytrip range with rental car:

closest thing I know around there to a high "paved goat path" (but
only
partly paved):
* drive from Chambery / Albertville to Bourg St Maurice, then partway
up the
Cormet de Roseland road, park near the junction for Val des Glaciers.
Ride
the single-lane road up the Val des Glaciers as far as you want to
ride
(starts paved, then turns to dirt, eventually single-track) - (I rode
on my
road bike at least as far as the Refuge des Mottets hut) -- and then
hike as
far up to Col de la Seigne (mentioned by Jobst) as you want to hike.
Great
views of the snowy Aiguille des Glaciers peak, cows, sheep, etc.,
views of
Mont Blanc as get higher toward the col. Optionally go partway down
northeast side into Italy to another hut.
photos lower half of this page: http://roberts-1.com/t/b06/mb
photos of some other riding below: http://roberts-1.com/t/b07/f/k

* just ride around thru the farms and vineyards and villages south of
Chambery. For finding the paved single-lane roads (? goat paths, or
more
likely former cow paths ?), best to have a 1:25000 maps. I've got some
favorite short routes I could point you to. But perhaps it would be
more fun
to get lost on your own, and I could just suggest which maps to buy at
one
of the local shops.

* Cormet de Roselend with side trips to Col du Pre and Val des
Glaciers is
one of the prettier road passes in France. Since you have a rental
car, you
could skip the boring sections lower down -- park as mentioned
previously
for Val des Glaciers + Col de la Seigne.

* the Versant du Soleil "balcon" route between Aime and Bourg St
Maurice.
Perhaps once a "goat path" across the hillsides, but now on well-paved
roads
thru quiet villages with views across the valley to the north slopes
(hopefully still with some snow) + some fun descents on the way to
Bourg St
Maurice. Then Sharon and I finished our loop on a fun single-lane
paved path
along the whitewater Isere river.

* drive your son partway up the north side of Col de Galibier (at
least as
far as Valloire -- skip the Col de Telegraphe climb -- possibly ? Plan
Lachat at the bottom of the main steep section -- or higher up
depending on
how sore his legs are from the day before). Then you drive over
Galibier and
Lauteret and down to La Grave and you climb the south side of Galibier
and
descend the same way. While he climbs over and descends to Lauteret,
then
thru La Grave to Bourg d'Oisans. You join him for part of the descent
to
Bourg d'Oisans, then climb back up to La Grave to get the car. While
he
(optionally) starts climbing up l'Alpe d'Huez.
So the idea is that he's doing the finish of the famous "la Marmotte"
event,
without riding the whole course. I think the descent from Lauteret to
Bourg
d'Oisans is very exciting and fun.
(another option could be the east side of Col de la Croix de Fer,
perhaps
you could drive your son up to start just above the village of St
Sorlin
d'Arves (because the steepest section is climbing through the
village). Or
could start lower around the junction for Col Mollard.)

* drive the autoroute southeast from Albertville toward Modane, but
instead
of going to Italy, continue east up the Haute Maurienne valley to
around
Bessans, then ride to Bonneval sur Arc (oldest village in the French
Alps?)
as a warmup, and continue up the south side of Col de l'Iseran
(highest
paved true col in Europe). Optionally ride partway down the north side
(depends on your aversion to ski lifts). Hopefully lots of snow still
close
by (or at least visible) in July.
While you're in the Haute Maurienne area, could ride or drive up from
Lanslebourg to Col du Mont Cenis, then ride back and forth above the
lake
(American riders seem to either love or hate that lake), optionally
partway
down the south side toward Susa, Italy.

way further south in France, not in daytrip range from Chambery:

outside of France . . .

base around Interlaken - Meiringen - Innertkirchen, Switzerland:
* bike route 61 between Interlaken and Grindelwald and Grosse
Scheidegg --
majority is single-lane paved, some single-lane dirt/gravel road, some
short
sections of single-track trail alongside a roaring river. (actually I
climbed it all on my road bike no problem). Quiet mountain villages,
cows,
goats, amazing views of the Eiger and Wetterhorn mountains. Gets
sustained
steep near the top. So there's the alternative . . .
Take the post-bus as high as a you need to based on leg soreness (bike
racks
on the back of the bus). You can't drive your son to the top because
normal
vehicle traffic is not permitted on the top section.
optionally ride down the east side as far as you want, then climb back
up
and do the descent.
(Jobst mentioned the very spectacular Grosse Scheidegg, but not the
interesting and varied bike rt 61.)

Nearby also is the climb on the west side of Sustenpass (mentioned by
Jobst) -- spectacular snowy mountains, several short tunnels,
interesting
varied curves -- way prettier and more interesting than Alpe d'Huez.
(does
your son really "need" to do l'Alpe d'Huez?) With rental car your son
could
start higher say around Gadmen. (I'd say the lakes on north side of
Grimsel
pass are also memorable on a blue-sky day, again could start climbing
higher, and it might not be harmful to go further and descend south to
Gletsch and even partway up the west side of Furka pass.

Also cable railway high up to the snowy Jungfraujoch (not for bikes),
possible famous mountain climb(s) with professional guide (very
memorable
but rather expensive), various non-guided hikes around the mountains,
often
using aid of ski lifts and/or post-bus. Likely some other exciting +
spectacular mountain bike trails.

Dolomites and/or Stelvio in Italy:
* lots of truly memorable spectacular riding. Not many "paved goat
paths"
(except what Sergio mentioned earlier?) -- the former goat paths have
now
been turned into nicely-paved roads.
I haven't done it, but the Sottoguda gorge near Passo Fedaia is
supposed to
be an interesting narrow road (but short?), and I've heard it's now
closed
to cars.

* while you're there, do some of the great hikes in the Dolomites. (?
unpaved goat paths ?)

* hire a guide if necessary and rent equipment and purchase guidebooks
to do
some of the amazingly great "via ferrata" rock climbs in the
Dolomites.
Exciting paths in spectacular very steep places way beyond what a goat
could
handle.
(There's also some via ferrata climbing routes in France (and
Switzerland),
but I haven't done any yet. But most people think northeast Italy has
the
best collection).

Ken

in response to
Sanetsch . . . did you descend the south side back down the same way? or
cross over north?
Martin Borsje wrote
/ and \ south

OK, then I'll do the same - (unless Jobst tells us a secret way to do the
north side).

As I've been looking at a bike route map covering the Rhone valley, it
occurs to me that the prettiest riding might be on "balcony" roads
traversing along the north and south slopes from village to village - rather
than going up to any special high goal.

Ken

I've appreciated reading your website, Mike. And I've spent lots of happy
days around Chambery (even more for ski touring than bicycling).

Some further thoughts:

* your views will probably look better than my photos, because most of my
photos are from riding in September, and you'll have more snow in July to
enhance contrast. I'd guess your experience will be more like September was
40 years ago before the glaciers had receded as much.

* I'm guessing that the truly amazing "goat path" rides in the northern
French Alps are some unpaved mountain bike trails. But I don't know those.

* something which experienced Euro riders mention as interesting further
south is Col de Parpaillon, which is a high col (around 2600m) which at its
summit goes thru a long-ish tunnel (often icy). Some people have done it on
road bikes, but much is unpaved on both sides, and I've heard it's much
better to do it on a mountain bike. Some say it's your last chance to
experience what the high passes of France used to be. (but too far from
Chambery / Albertville to make sense as a daytrip.)

* there's noteworthy road segments on the west side of the Vercors plateau
(west of Grenoble): (1) a road literally cut into the side of a vertical
cliff (now there's your "paved goat path") -- the problem I have with that
is there's so many uninteresting kilometers before and after it. (2) If you
like riding up + down gorges, there's several around there, and I think a
search of r.b.r archives and some web pages will give several ideas - (since
I guess I'm not sufficiently into gorges to have ridden them myself).

* special non-bike: Driving from Chambery or Albertville to Chamonix and
taking the telepherique lift up to the Aiguille du Midi for the high
mountain view -- it's beyond anything I've seen in the 48 states.
Really specially memorable (but very expensive) would be to hire a
professional guide and climb one of the peaks from the Aiguille du Midi
lift. (Note that even just _hiking_ around from the top of that lift has
special deadly risk because of glaciers and ice).

Ken

"Ken Roberts" wrote in message
...
I've appreciated reading your website, Mike. And I've spent lots of
happy days around Chambery (even more for ski touring than bicycling).

Some further thoughts:

* your views will probably look better than my photos, because most of
my photos are from riding in September, and you'll have more snow in
July to enhance contrast. I'd guess your experience will be more like
September was 40 years ago before the glaciers had receded as much.

* I'm guessing that the truly amazing "goat path" rides in the
northern French Alps are some unpaved mountain bike trails. But I
don't know those.

I probably misled people with the "goat path" description. It's a
relative term; to me, a paved goat path would be anything that's a
substandard-width one-lane road. Some of my most-interesting rides in
France have been when I took a wrong turn and ended up on a wicked climb
on such roads. One in particular, somewhere outside of La Clusaz, took
us way up this mountain and ended at a little church built a very long
time ago. I've got a picture of it somewhere that I need to find.

* something which experienced Euro riders mention as interesting
further south is Col de Parpaillon, which is a high col (around 2600m)
which at its summit goes thru a long-ish tunnel (often icy). Some
people have done it on road bikes, but much is unpaved on both sides,
and I've heard it's much better to do it on a mountain bike. Some say
it's your last chance to experience what the high passes of France
used to be. (but too far from Chambery / Albertville to make sense as
a daytrip.)

We'll be on standard road bikes, and as I'll be responsible for my son's
welfare, getting too far off the beaten track might not be a great idea.
I mean, sure, when I was that age I was doing all sorts of silly rides
on my road bike (that's all we had back then). And those goat paths
weren't paved! But I don't want to get into anything too far from
civilization. There shouldn't be an issue, but my son does get seizures
(epilepsy) once in a while. Nothing life threatening, but if he had a
really significant event it wouldn't be a lot of fun being out in the
middle of nowhere.

* there's noteworthy road segments on the west side of the Vercors
plateau (west of Grenoble): (1) a road literally cut into the side of
a vertical cliff (now there's your "paved goat path") -- the problem I
have with that is there's so many uninteresting kilometers before and
after it. (2) If you like riding up + down gorges, there's several
around there, and I think a search of r.b.r archives and some web
pages will give several ideas - (since I guess I'm not sufficiently
into gorges to have ridden them myself).

I've seen the pictures... incredible stuff!!! I didn't realize there
were "so many uninteresting kilometers" getting there though. The
alternative might be 211B on the hill opposite Alpe d'Huez. I've often
looked across the valley and thought that might be a fun road to ride.

* special non-bike: Driving from Chambery or Albertville to Chamonix
and taking the telepherique lift up to the Aiguille du Midi for the
high mountain view -- it's beyond anything I've seen in the 48 states.
Really specially memorable (but very expensive) would be to hire a
professional guide and climb one of the peaks from the Aiguille du
Midi lift. (Note that even just _hiking_ around from the top of that
lift has special deadly risk because of glaciers and ice).

Ken

A few years ago I took the tram up to the top. Wow, quite a view up
there! That's something we might consider on a day off. We'll see what
time allows for. In a perfect world, I'd find a way to take 4 more days
off and get over to the Stelvio. That's one of those things I have on
the before-you-die list. Even my son (remember, built like a linebacker)
looks at the pictures of the Stelvio and thinks that would be a fun
thing to do.

OK, a general question. Presently we're booked in Chambery, but it
really looks like Albertville would be the better place, with direct (by
bike, without car) access to the Annecy and Grand Bournand stages, and
possibly a train ride to St Bourg Maurice where we could ride to the
Petite St. Bernard pass for that stage. It may be too late to change,
although it appears that it's not too difficult getting reservations at
the Etap because while you cannot book on-line more than 250 days out,
which discourages most, all you have to do is call.

Thanks for all the great info!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote
to me, a paved goat path would be anything that's a substandard-width
one-lane road. Some of my most-interesting rides in France have been when
I took a wrong turn and ended up on a wicked climb on such roads. One in
particular, somewhere outside of La Clusaz, took us way up this mountain
and ended at a little church built a very long time ago.

Yeah there's lots of roads like that in the French Alps. One of my favorite
rides was a wrong turn which after more than 3000 vertical feet of climbing
took me up to a quiet village that I thought was completely wonderful.
(After about a 1000 vertical feet, I did recognize that I was off route, but
after that much work I figured I might as well keep going and see where it
led).

But sometimes it doesn't seem so amazingly wonderful going there a second
time, without the thrill of unexpected discovery. And often it doesn't seem
so wonderful it was _somebody else's_ decision that led to exploring that
road. In my first note, I listed rides to places where I have gone back a
second time with another person, and we both thought it was pretty
worthwhile.

Presently we're booked in Chambery, but it really looks like Albertville
would be the better place, with direct (by bike, without car) access to
the Annecy and Grand Bournand stages, and possibly a train ride to St
Bourg Maurice where we could ride to the Petite St. Bernard pass for that
stage.

* I like Chambery better as a city, with a marked bike route that gives
access to the countryside south and north (goes roughly near lots of the
hotels, I'd guess less than half a mile from the Etap on the RN6 near
Challes-les-Eaux). And I think the farmland riding immediately accessible
from Chambery is nicer than around Albertville.

* Chambery has great fast road access to most of the northern French Alps --
and lots of other places such as the Geneva + Lyon airports. I like to use
it as a base, and I plan to use my rental car to exploit that advantage. But
if your plan is to try to avoid actually using your rental car, then the fit
is not so clear.

* Annecy: riding around the Lac d'Annecy is wonderful, half on a rail trail
with pretty views (which is unusual for rail trails). Getting from
Albertville to the southeast end of the lake I don't know anything about.
The main road gets lots of traffic because it's the "short cut" to reaching
the A41 highway at Annecy from Albertville. I'd might guess there's some
sort reasonable bike route on secondary roads and paved off-road paths, but
I really don't know.

* Taking the train at least partway to Bourg St Maurice strikes me as much
better than trying to ride there from Albertville. Especially in the section
just north of Moutiers the main road gets lots of vehicle traffic and was
not at all bike-friendly (as of a year ago). There are some secondary road
alternatives for that section, but I think they're very serious hill-climbs.
Once you take the train as far as Aime, then you have the choice of riding
on the Isere river bike path (easy) to Bourg St Maurice, or the "Versant du
Soleil" road route thru Granier and Valezan to BStM (hilly though not much
steeper than 6%, and rewarding). Between Albertville and Moutiers I think
some parts have worthwhile secondary roads, but I haven't tried them yet (on
my list to do is use some of those to ride a loop south of Albertville over
Col de la Madeleine.)

* riding from Albertville to Grand Bornand sounds like a rather big day, and
could have traffic interaction problems. The N212 thru Val d'Arly gets lots
of traffic in a hurry, lots of curves, much not wide. The obvious
alternative is to ride D925 to Beaufort and then climb over Col des
Saisies -- but again the D925 gets a fair amount of traffic, lots of tight
curves, much not wide (and getting over Saisies is substantial work). (I've
never cycled either of those roads, but I've driven them many times in my
car). There are other alternatives (the one I've cycled was the D109? thru
Hery on the west side of the N212, with some steep climbing and not such
rewarding views, and it doesn't avoid all of the N212). Another idea might
be to drive to somewhere near Flumet and only ride the climb over Col
d'Aravis -- but don't count on finding parking in the village of Flumet.