Creaking pedals

On 2016-07-31 01:44, Graham wrote:
I have a Shimano chainset with Shimano pedals. I have just come back
from a trip to the Pyrenees where I climbed some of the classic cols
ridden in the TdF and Vuelta. After an hour or two of climbing at
least one and possibly both of my pedals started to creak - every
half rev.

After the first time I tried tightening them but they were already as
tight as they would go and this made no difference. What did make a
difference was slackening and then retightening them. This was only a
temporary fix as the creak would return after another hour or two of
climbing. The threads are clean and greased. Having got back home the
problem has not returned when cycling around on much flatter
territory. I guess it will though when I climb the next sizeable
hill.

Anyone come across this before and found a fix. I was considering
trying some plumbers ptfe tape to take up any possible slight
mismatch in the thread profiles or to provide another form of
lubrication to prevent the creak.


I used to be obsessed about this and do maintenance every time noises
came from down there. No more. For me it's now just part of life. The
road bike has three clicks per turn on the right and two on the left.
tic-tic ... tic-tic-tic. The MTB goes tic-groan-tic-tic. I just ride
with that. So far nothing fell of in that area. On the MTB there is also
loud rear suspension clicking so on a gnarly singletrail it makes a
little concerto. Tells the animals I am coming :-)

When a phshhhhhh noise arises on top of this I know it's time to clean
and lube the chain. Which for some reason also has an impact on the
clicking noises. However, 10-20mi after the lube those are all back as
usual.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 10:55:11 AM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
"jbeattie" wrote in message ...
On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 10:00:45 AM UTC-7, Graham wrote:
"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/1/2016 4:49 AM, Graham wrote:


One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

That might be an important clue!

That's leading me to suspect some problem where the crank arm connects
to the bottom bracket spindle. What model crankset are you using?

Shimano Hollowtech II Ultegra.

Did that trick work no matter which foot was forward when you stood on
the horizontal cranks?

Now that I could not say for sure. I can check if/when the creaking re-occurs.

Would I be correct in assuming you are considering some directional aspect to the problem possibly to do with the direction of loading. If so it is worth noting that only one of the crank arms, the left, is detachable with the Hollowtech design.

The left crank arm is secured by a clamping arrangement tightened by two hex head bolts. As I have a Stages power meter on left crank then I do make sure that I torque those bolts exactly to spec to assure optimum functioning of the meter.

The last time I removed the crank I checked the crank and spindle splines and they looked ok but that is only by visual inspection. I have no way of checking whether they are both close to the extremes of their spec tolerances which could adversely affect the fit. I have just rechecked the torque values and they are on spec.

The power meter also looks to be giving sensible readings comparing its output on the Pyrenean climbs to that I calculated from the basic physics for the climbs. If the crank arm were not "solidly" connected to the spindle then I would expect this to adversely affect the power reading.


That interface usually isn't problematic so long as the bolts are torqued to spec. Watch out for those things -- they strip easily, even with a good 5mm hex socket.

I know all about Shimano's "soft" bolts ;( I have replaced then in all my cranks with decent ones having had to drill into one and drive in a Torx bit to remove it.

Same here, except that I drilled into it and used an extractor. What are you using as replacements? Just 5M from the hardware store? I used a OTC 5mm SS for a while, but then replaced the bolt with a shiny Shimano, which will probably strip.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 8/1/2016 1:00 PM, Graham wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/1/2016 4:49 AM, Graham wrote:


One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

That might be an important clue!

That's leading me to suspect some problem where the crank arm connects
to the bottom bracket spindle. What model crankset are you using?

Shimano Hollowtech II Ultegra.

Did that trick work no matter which foot was forward when you stood on
the horizontal cranks?

Now that I could not say for sure. I can check if/when the creaking re-occurs.

Would I be correct in assuming you are considering some directional aspect to the problem possibly to do with the direction of loading.

Yes, that's what I was wondering.

If so it is worth noting that only one of the crank arms, the left, is
detachable with the Hollowtech design.

Right. Even with the old square taper, there are differences in the way
left and right crank arms see loads.

But I was wondering (vaguely, I admit) if left-foot-forward bunny
hopping might sort of wedge the left crank-to-spindle connection harder
into its load carrying orientation, and remove the relative motion for a
while. Perhaps it might later loosen a bit in part because of the
backward load that crank arm sees when the left arm is rising.

(Many studies have shown that cyclist's almost apply positive torque on
the back of the stroke, even though they think they do; there's still
some downward force on the rising pedal. IOW, the rearward crank arm
actually helps to lift the cyclist's rear leg.)

If you squirted some penetrating lubricant into that connection between
the left crank arm and the spindle, and if the creak went away, that
might indicate that's the problem area. (That test might also apply to
other problem locations.)

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/1/2016 3:05 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Oops. Typos. I've inserted a missing word in CAPS below.

(Many studies have shown that cyclists almost NEVER apply positive torque on
the back of the stroke, even though they think they do; there's still
some downward force on the rising pedal. IOW, the rearward crank arm
actually helps to lift the cyclist's rear leg.)



--
- Frank Krygowski

"jbeattie" wrote in message ...
I know all about Shimano's "soft" bolts ;( I have replaced then in all my cranks with decent ones having had to drill into one and drive in a Torx bit to remove it.

Same here, except that I drilled into it and used an extractor. What are you using as replacements? Just 5M from the hardware store? I used a OTC 5mm SS for a while, but then replaced the bolt with a shiny Shimano, which will probably strip.

I got a set of high tensile bolts off the internet. I did however have to reduce the diameter of the heads slightly to fit comfortably in the recessed holes in the crank harm. An angle grinder is a wonderful tool in careful hands!!!! No problems since.

Graham.



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 11:06:43 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-07-31 01:44, Graham wrote:
I have a Shimano chainset with Shimano pedals. I have just come back
from a trip to the Pyrenees where I climbed some of the classic cols
ridden in the TdF and Vuelta. After an hour or two of climbing at
least one and possibly both of my pedals started to creak - every
half rev.

After the first time I tried tightening them but they were already as
tight as they would go and this made no difference. What did make a
difference was slackening and then retightening them. This was only a
temporary fix as the creak would return after another hour or two of
climbing. The threads are clean and greased. Having got back home the
problem has not returned when cycling around on much flatter
territory. I guess it will though when I climb the next sizeable
hill.

Anyone come across this before and found a fix. I was considering
trying some plumbers ptfe tape to take up any possible slight
mismatch in the thread profiles or to provide another form of
lubrication to prevent the creak.


I used to be obsessed about this and do maintenance every time noises
came from down there. No more. For me it's now just part of life. The
road bike has three clicks per turn on the right and two on the left.
tic-tic ... tic-tic-tic. The MTB goes tic-groan-tic-tic. I just ride
with that. So far nothing fell of in that area. On the MTB there is also
loud rear suspension clicking so on a gnarly singletrail it makes a
little concerto. Tells the animals I am coming :-)

When a phshhhhhh noise arises on top of this I know it's time to clean
and lube the chain. Which for some reason also has an impact on the
clicking noises. However, 10-20mi after the lube those are all back as
usual.

A sloppy pedal/crank interface can creak so badly that it is annoying to ride the bike, and the endless comments from riding companions are equally annoying. I rode with a guy who had a mis-installed conversion BB, and that sucker was noisier than a one-man band.

And some creaks, cracks, groans, etc. are symptomatic of much worse things happening, like a broken frame or broken bars -- or more innocuously, shot BB bearings or shot pedal bearings. Some impending failures don't creak for long -- like broken pedal spindles and broken cranks, but other things can go on for quite a while before they snap.

The first time I heard one of those super noisy stiff/high-count pawl freehubs, I thought it was broken. Who knew? Now its a status sound. Maybe you could elevate all your creaks and clicks into a status sound -- its a feature not a bug.

-- Jay Beattie.

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/1/2016 1:00 PM, Graham wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/1/2016 4:49 AM, Graham wrote:


One more clue to the source I forgot to mention last time is that I could silence the creaks for while by standing on the pedals with the cranks horizontal and bunny hopping the bike.

That might be an important clue!

That's leading me to suspect some problem where the crank arm connects
to the bottom bracket spindle. What model crankset are you using?

Shimano Hollowtech II Ultegra.

Did that trick work no matter which foot was forward when you stood on
the horizontal cranks?

Now that I could not say for sure. I can check if/when the creaking re-occurs.

Would I be correct in assuming you are considering some directional aspect to the problem possibly to do with the direction of loading.

Yes, that's what I was wondering.

If so it is worth noting that only one of the crank arms, the left, is
detachable with the Hollowtech design.

Right. Even with the old square taper, there are differences in the way
left and right crank arms see loads.

But I was wondering (vaguely, I admit) if left-foot-forward bunny
hopping might sort of wedge the left crank-to-spindle connection harder
into its load carrying orientation, and remove the relative motion for a
while. Perhaps it might later loosen a bit in part because of the
backward load that crank arm sees when the left arm is rising.

The crank to spindle connection is made up of two sets of 18 parallel (to the axis of the spindle) ~1.5mm pitch splines separated by two wider splines. I have discussed the possible problems with this connection with Jay but both our experiences are that this connection has not caused any problems when the crank arm bolts are torqued to spec. I am still leaning towards a pedal problem that could also exibit a behaviour similar to what you describe above.

(Many studies have shown that cyclist's almost apply positive torque on
the back of the stroke, even though they think they do; there's still
some downward force on the rising pedal. IOW, the rearward crank arm
actually helps to lift the cyclist's rear leg.)

Agreed and it is surprising how high it can be. My power meter shows a metric referred to as torque effectiveness which is defined as the difference between the absolute values of the positive and negative torques divided by the positive torque. Typically when time trialling mine is in the 80-90% range. This will rise close to 100% when sprinting or climbing hard out of the saddle when I do pull up on the pedals but will fall in to the 60-70% range when just cruising around. On the Pyrenean climbs my average was in the same range as my time trialling.

If you squirted some penetrating lubricant into that connection between
the left crank arm and the spindle, and if the creak went away, that
might indicate that's the problem area. (That test might also apply to
other problem locations.)

The connection is well greased so I do not think penetrating lubricant would help. If it is a high load effect with an imperfect pedal to crank connection then that is what lead me in part to consider ptfe tape as this might act as a form of solid lubricant and reduce/eliminate any metal to metal contact that results in the creak. If this is the problem then the best solution would be a way to improve the connection rather than rely on lubricant.

Graham.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

On 01/08/2016 2:06 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-07-31 01:44, Graham wrote:
I have a Shimano chainset with Shimano pedals. I have just come back
from a trip to the Pyrenees where I climbed some of the classic cols
ridden in the TdF and Vuelta. After an hour or two of climbing at
least one and possibly both of my pedals started to creak - every
half rev.

After the first time I tried tightening them but they were already as
tight as they would go and this made no difference. What did make a
difference was slackening and then retightening them. This was only a
temporary fix as the creak would return after another hour or two of
climbing. The threads are clean and greased. Having got back home the
problem has not returned when cycling around on much flatter
territory. I guess it will though when I climb the next sizeable
hill.

Anyone come across this before and found a fix. I was considering
trying some plumbers ptfe tape to take up any possible slight
mismatch in the thread profiles or to provide another form of
lubrication to prevent the creak.


I used to be obsessed about this and do maintenance every time noises
came from down there. No more. For me it's now just part of life. The
road bike has three clicks per turn on the right and two on the left.
tic-tic ... tic-tic-tic. The MTB goes tic-groan-tic-tic. I just ride
with that. So far nothing fell of in that area. On the MTB there is also
loud rear suspension clicking so on a gnarly singletrail it makes a
little concerto. Tells the animals I am coming :-)

When a phshhhhhh noise arises on top of this I know it's time to clean
and lube the chain. Which for some reason also has an impact on the
clicking noises. However, 10-20mi after the lube those are all back as
usual.



To each his own but I would go and have gone bat **** dealing with a
creaking noise like Graham is talking about.

On 2016-08-01 12:57, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 1, 2016 at 11:06:43 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2016-07-31 01:44, Graham wrote:
I have a Shimano chainset with Shimano pedals. I have just come
back from a trip to the Pyrenees where I climbed some of the
classic cols ridden in the TdF and Vuelta. After an hour or two
of climbing at least one and possibly both of my pedals started
to creak - every half rev.

After the first time I tried tightening them but they were
already as tight as they would go and this made no difference.
What did make a difference was slackening and then retightening
them. This was only a temporary fix as the creak would return
after another hour or two of climbing. The threads are clean and
greased. Having got back home the problem has not returned when
cycling around on much flatter territory. I guess it will though
when I climb the next sizeable hill.

Anyone come across this before and found a fix. I was
considering trying some plumbers ptfe tape to take up any
possible slight mismatch in the thread profiles or to provide
another form of lubrication to prevent the creak.


I used to be obsessed about this and do maintenance every time
noises came from down there. No more. For me it's now just part of
life. The road bike has three clicks per turn on the right and two
on the left. tic-tic ... tic-tic-tic. The MTB goes
tic-groan-tic-tic. I just ride with that. So far nothing fell of in
that area. On the MTB there is also loud rear suspension clicking
so on a gnarly singletrail it makes a little concerto. Tells the
animals I am coming :-)

When a phshhhhhh noise arises on top of this I know it's time to
clean and lube the chain. Which for some reason also has an impact
on the clicking noises. However, 10-20mi after the lube those are
all back as usual.

A sloppy pedal/crank interface can creak so badly that it is annoying
to ride the bike, and the endless comments from riding companions are
equally annoying. I rode with a guy who had a mis-installed
conversion BB, and that sucker was noisier than a one-man band.

And some creaks, cracks, groans, etc. are symptomatic of much worse
things happening, like a broken frame or broken bars -- or more
innocuously, shot BB bearings or shot pedal bearings. Some impending
failures don't creak for long -- like broken pedal spindles and
broken cranks, but other things can go on for quite a while before
they snap.

The first time I heard one of those super noisy stiff/high-count pawl
freehubs, I thought it was broken. Who knew? Now its a status sound.
Maybe you could elevate all your creaks and clicks into a status
sound -- its a feature not a bug.


The only bicycles I ever had that did not creak or click were those
where I welded the cranks onto the shaft to get rid of the misguided
cotter pin concept.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 02/08/16 06:46, Joerg wrote:

The only bicycles I ever had that did not creak or click were those
where I welded the cranks onto the shaft to get rid of the misguided
cotter pin concept.


My BB assy doesn't click, tic or creak.

I also wouldn't use a pipe clamp to permanently "fix" a Shimano 600 headset.

--
JS