Dragging the wheel sucker

aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
Travis Harry wrote:

Is there a table of measurement-verified values of energy saved at
varying speeds from close following?

But, I'm as much interested in the Subject, the cost to the lead
rider. I know speed records set behind lead vehicles are always
posed as though the only action of that lead vehicle is to reduce
drag, as if making the air thinner, less viscous. The truth is
otherwise, whether you view this is a partial vacuum pulling the
trailing cyclist or the closing backwave pushing him forward.

So, what is the energy penalty on the leading rider, at varying
speeds?

Where do yo9u suppose the energy goes? The leading rider can only
gain from a closely following body. A slight pressure wave of
insignificant magnitude precedes a bicyclist. It does not extend far
ahead, but is possibly detectable with careful instrumentation. The
work of a lone rider in still air (for simplicity) puts the air into
forward motion just as trash on a road is swirled forward when a motor
vehicle passes.

However, a large trailing vehicle can produce a significant "bow wave"
which is why support motor homes and chase vehicles are not allow to
follow the cyclist too closely in endurance events and speed record
attempts, respectively.

I hope in you bicycling you have had the opportunity to sit in behind
a moving van.[...]

The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of
hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing of about 1
meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I had any effect on
the farmer's fuel economy.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct wave
Point” - gene daniels

On Sep 27, 11:14*am, Tom Sherman
wrote:

The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of
hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing of about 1
meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I had any effect on
the farmer's fuel economy.

My best draft was behind a Winnebago on a fully loaded touring bike
going down San Marcos Pass Road towards Santa Barbara. I thought I'd
bought it a couple of times.

R

aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
Travis Harry wrote:

Is there a table of measurement-verified values of energy saved at
varying speeds from close following?

But, I'm as much interested in the Subject, the cost to the lead
rider. I know speed records set behind lead vehicles are always
posed as though the only action of that lead vehicle is to reduce
drag, as if making the air thinner, less viscous. The truth is
otherwise, whether you view this is a partial vacuum pulling the
trailing cyclist or the closing backwave pushing him forward.

So, what is the energy penalty on the leading rider, at varying
speeds?

Where do yo9u suppose the energy goes? The leading rider can only
gain from a closely following body. A slight pressure wave of
insignificant magnitude precedes a bicyclist. It does not extend far
ahead, but is possibly detectable with careful instrumentation. The
work of a lone rider in still air (for simplicity) puts the air into
forward motion just as trash on a road is swirled forward when a motor
vehicle passes.

However, a large trailing vehicle can produce a significant "bow wave"
which is why support motor homes and chase vehicles are not allow to
follow the cyclist too closely in endurance events and speed record
attempts, respectively.

I hope in you bicycling you have had the opportunity to sit in behind
a moving van.[...]

The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of
hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing of about 1
meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I had any effect on
the farmer's fuel economy.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct wave
Point” - gene daniels

On 9/27/2008 8:57 AM RicodJour wrote:

On Sep 27, 11:14 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of
hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing of about 1
meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I had any effect on
the farmer's fuel economy.

My best draft was behind a Winnebago on a fully loaded touring bike
going down San Marcos Pass Road towards Santa Barbara. I thought I'd
bought it a couple of times.


I bow before you.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"

On 9/27/2008 8:57 AM RicodJour wrote:

On Sep 27, 11:14 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of
hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing of about 1
meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I had any effect on
the farmer's fuel economy.

My best draft was behind a Winnebago on a fully loaded touring bike
going down San Marcos Pass Road towards Santa Barbara. I thought I'd
bought it a couple of times.


I bow before you.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"

On Sep 27, 12:23*pm, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
wrote:
On 9/27/2008 8:57 AM RicodJour wrote:

On Sep 27, 11:14 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of
hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing of about 1
meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I had any effect on
the farmer's fuel economy.

My best draft was behind a Winnebago on a fully loaded touring bike
going down San Marcos Pass Road towards Santa Barbara. *I thought I'd
bought it a couple of times.

I bow before you.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"

Ok, I just read Lance Armstrongs book, "Its Not about the bike". He
says that in a race, the support guys would chase down someone who did
a breakaway, and their technique was to get right behind the breakaway
racer and pace him, thereby slowing him down and making him work
harder... Did I read that wrong? I'm interested, because I'll feel
bad drafting someone at the end of a long ride if I'm making his job
harder... Of course, some days I can pull and other days I'm shot.

someone wrote:

The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon
full of hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing
of about 1 meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I
had any effect on the farmer's fuel economy.

My best draft was behind a Winnebago on a fully loaded touring
bike going down San Marcos Pass Road toward Santa Barbara. Â*I
thought I'd bought it a couple of times.

I bow before you.

OK, I just read Lance Armstrong's book, "Its Not about the bike".
He says that in a race, the support guys would chase down someone
who did a breakaway, and their technique was to get right behind the
breakaway racer and pace him, thereby slowing him down and making
him work harder... Did I read that wrong? I'm interested, because
I'll feel bad drafting someone at the end of a long ride if I'm
making his job harder... Of course, some days I can pull and other
days I'm shot.

To bad. Driving a truck right behind someone helps push him along, as
I and Tom Sherman mentioned. A following bicyclist does the same but
it isn't significant, his cross section being small and several
diameters behind the lead rider. A van, in contrast pushes a lot of
air ahead of itself and can assist a bicyclist is directly behind the
rider's rear wheel.

I guess Lance was cooking up more myth and lore. I like his noted
interview about drugs: "I don't use any BANNED substances!" which in
so many words didn't deny that he didn't use them but made clear these
substances had not yet been identified by the medical rule makers.

Jobst Brandt

On Sat, 27 Sep 2008 12:10:41 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Sep 27, 12:23*pm, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
wrote:
On 9/27/2008 8:57 AM RicodJour wrote:

On Sep 27, 11:14 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full of
hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing of about 1
meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I had any effect on
the farmer's fuel economy.

My best draft was behind a Winnebago on a fully loaded touring bike
going down San Marcos Pass Road towards Santa Barbara. *I thought I'd
bought it a couple of times.

I bow before you.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"

Ok, I just read Lance Armstrongs book, "Its Not about the bike". He
says that in a race, the support guys would chase down someone who did
a breakaway, and their technique was to get right behind the breakaway
racer and pace him, thereby slowing him down and making him work
harder... Did I read that wrong? I'm interested, because I'll feel
bad drafting someone at the end of a long ride if I'm making his job
harder... Of course, some days I can pull and other days I'm shot.

Dear Z,

Interesting--sounds like wishful thinking in the peloton.

Yes, the rider in front does work harder than anyone drafting him.

And yes, we talk about him "pulling" the paceline, so it's easy to
think that the riders behind him constitute a drag.

But if there's any effect, the lead rider goes a tiny bit faster, not
slower.

This thread has some details:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.b...f54be1ca14f896

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

wrote in message
...
On Sep 27, 12:23 pm, Mike Rocket J Squirrel
wrote:
On 9/27/2008 8:57 AM RicodJour wrote:

On Sep 27, 11:14 am, Tom Sherman
wrote:
The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon full
of
hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing of about 1
meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I had any
effect on
the farmer's fuel economy.

My best draft was behind a Winnebago on a fully loaded touring bike
going down San Marcos Pass Road towards Santa Barbara. I thought I'd
bought it a couple of times.

I bow before you.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel"

Ok, I just read Lance Armstrongs book, "Its Not about the bike". He
says that in a race, the support guys would chase down someone who did
a breakaway, and their technique was to get right behind the breakaway
racer and pace him, thereby slowing him down and making him work
harder... Did I read that wrong?

Do you have a page number?

Phil H

aka Jobst Brandt wrote:
someone wrote:

The best draft I ever had was a pick-up truck pulling a wagon
full of hay bales at 40 to 50 kph, which I followed at a spacing
of about 1 meter for several kilometers at low effort. I doubt I
had any effect on the farmer's fuel economy.

My best draft was behind a Winnebago on a fully loaded touring
bike going down San Marcos Pass Road toward Santa Barbara. I
thought I'd bought it a couple of times.

I bow before you.

OK, I just read Lance Armstrong's book, "Its Not about the bike".
He says that in a race, the support guys would chase down someone
who did a breakaway, and their technique was to get right behind the
breakaway racer and pace him, thereby slowing him down and making
him work harder... Did I read that wrong? I'm interested, because
I'll feel bad drafting someone at the end of a long ride if I'm
making his job harder... Of course, some days I can pull and other
days I'm shot.

To bad. Driving a truck right behind someone helps push him along, as
I and Tom Sherman mentioned. A following bicyclist does the same but
it isn't significant, his cross section being small and several
diameters behind the lead rider. A van, in contrast pushes a lot of
air ahead of itself and can assist a bicyclist is directly behind the
rider's rear wheel.

I guess Lance was cooking up more myth and lore. I like his noted
interview about drugs: "I don't use any BANNED substances!" which in
so many words didn't deny that he didn't use them but made clear these
substances had not yet been identified by the medical rule makers.

The support car might have a psychological effect on the breakaway
rider, but this is speculation.

The most likely explanation is confusing correlation with causation. The
breakaway rider naturally tires from no drafting help and the extra
energy used to get out on the break, so he would have come back to the
lead peloton anyway without being paced by the support car.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct wave
Point� - gene daniels