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  #161  
Old December 10th 10, 02:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane Hébert
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Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

On 12/9/2010 11:55 PM, James wrote:
Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/9/2010 10:20 PM, James Steward wrote:
Tºm Shermªn™ °_° wrote:
On 12/9/2010 8:27 PM, Michael Press wrote:
If trikes/bents are so much more comfortable why are the roads not
flooded with them? If you really want one you can buy one. Why
don't
people do that? You can blame only yourself.
Most people prefer to resemble Eddy Merckx;
rather than resembling a circus clown.

Indeed, many are too weak to resist peer pressure.


Or clever enough to realise what's better.


Yes, most are not clever enough to realize most have it wrong.


Is there a right or wrong answer? We are all individuals. We all have to
work it out for ourselves.

JS.

+1
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  #162  
Old December 10th 10, 06:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Michael Press
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Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

In article ,
Tºm Shermªn™ °_° " wrote:

On 12/9/2010 9:11 PM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
Michael wrote:

In ,
Tºm Shermªnâ≥¢ " wrote:

On 12/5/2010 12:06 AM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
TÃ*ºm ShermÃ*ªnââ•ı¢ Ã*°_Ã*°""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI$souths lope.net" wrote:

On 12/1/2010 8:48 PM, Michael Press wrote:
In ,
wrote:

On 11/29/2010 6:17 PM, James wrote:
On Nov 30, 10:55 am, TÃ∞â•˚Ã*ºm ShermÃ∞â•˚Ã*ªnÃ∞¢ââ*¬zË ΩÃ*¢ Ã∞â•˚Ã*°_Ã∞â•˚Ã*°""twsh ermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:

If new persons older than their early to mid 20's are to be attracted to
cycling and stick to it in significant numbers, something more
comfortable than a narrow saddle and/or drop bars is needed.

They give at least three possible hand positions while seated, and the
hoods are excellent for use out of the seat.

Most people I've seen are uncomfortable with straight bars and their
variants, and start adding bar ends for extra hand position
flexibility - still coming short of the variety offered by drop bars.

The individual is at liberty to have the bars moved up or down and
closer or further away. The drop bars don't inhibit certain
locations.

They are made in a variety of widths.

What is uncomfortable about drop bars?

JS.

Well, aside from the hand numbness and neck strain, nothing really I guess.
~

vi?

If your back hurts and your neck hurts,
you are not pedaling hard enough.

How is the newer rider going to maintain hard pedaling until he/she gets
into shape? What about times when hard pedaling may not be appropriate?

Who said it was going to be easy?
Buy if Buick Lucerne and ditch
the bicycle if it hurts that much.

So Mr. Press is an elitist who does not want to expand the number of
cyclists?

Argumentum ad hominem and two unwarranted assumptions.


No reply.


Why reply to an unresponsive non-answer?


Why reply at all?

--
Michael Press
  #163  
Old December 10th 10, 09:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

Tm Shermn _ wrote:
On 12/9/2010 9:41 PM, Chalo Colina wrote:
Duane Hbert wrote:

Doc O'Leary wrote:

You can't run a business supplying comfort bikes if the demand just
isn't there. If the industry had half a clue they'd be taking more
long-term steps to shift the balance over by fitting cycling in with
the
existing culture. Instead, they're doing short-term targeting of the
existing high-end recreational market.

What do you actually mean by comfort bikes? Bents? Touring? Something
else?


The bicycle industry defines "comfort bikes" as MTB-derived bikes with
steeply sloping top tubes, rudimentary suspension forks and seatposts,
and high adjustable stems with riser bars. Oddly, most of these bikes
also have steep seat angles, making for a uniquely impotent rider
position.

http://www.chicagobikeblog.com/2007/...ort-bikes.html

Most of the people who buy typical comfort bikes don't ride them very
much, from what I can tell. The Electra Townie is an exception, in my
neck of the woods anyway, with noticeable representation among daily
transportational riders.


The Electra Townie is a crank-forward design, and not a traditional
upright geometry bicycle:
http://coolmaterial.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/electra-townie-bike.jpg.



Here's my comfort bike:
http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...ast/AMKEST.JPG
YMMV.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971
  #164  
Old December 10th 10, 09:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doc O'Leary[_15_]
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Posts: 20
Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

Tell me how to work it out for myself.


Here's how to work it out like most Americans:

"My parents/grandparents were the Greatest Generation, but it seems I've
become a lazy dolt, not that I'd ever admit that to myself. I could
just sit here on the couch and comfortably be on the road to obesity
like everyone else, but there is still a small bit of Real American(tm)
blood pumping in my veins that isn't being blocked by buildup, so I'm
going to start biking."

"Whoa, there's no way I can spend $5K on that super-sweet carbon deal.
Times are tough. I'm going to blame the current President, all the
while insisting it's not because he's black, and call him Fartbama for
some unknown reason. I'm hilarious. Anyway, that bike doesn't even
look comfortable. That bike over there looks way nicer, at just $300!"

"But, wait, what is that guy over *there* riding? Sitting back like
he's in a recliner! I could really go for that! I hope it has a beer
holder. It's called a "bent" you say? Alright, let's take a look at
one of those. Back up to thousands of ****ing dollars? Give me the
$300 job, you *******s."

"This bike riding is hard. Who'd have thought that it would be so
difficult to move yourself around rather than relying on long-dead
dinosaurs, which I somehow also deny ever existed. I'm going to try to
sell this cheap bike on craigslist for way more than its worth,
frustratedly spam the ad when nobody wants it, and then throw it in the
back of the garage. Now where's my remote control, because that couch
isn't going to keep itself warm."

And . . . scene!

--
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  #165  
Old December 10th 10, 09:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doc O'Leary[_15_]
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Posts: 20
Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

In article ,
Duane Hbert wrote:

What do you actually mean by comfort bikes? Bents? Touring? Something
else?


Chalo already covered the formal definition, but I would say it applies
to a whole class of bikes that *would* be used for biking, if only the
people buying them were self-aware of their biking needs. Instead, much
like the way they pay for gym memberships at the start of the year and
end up not using them, they get the bike designed for the fit person
they *think* they'll be in 6 months. And bike shops have to survive on
that, so "comfort bikes" of all stripes don't get sold in anywhere
*near* the numbers they should.

--
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My personal UDP list: 127.0.0.1, localhost, googlegroups.com, astraweb.com,
and probably your server, too.
  #166  
Old December 10th 10, 10:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
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Posts: 5,093
Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

Duane Hbert wrote:

Chalo wrote:

The bicycle industry defines "comfort bikes" as MTB-derived bikes with
steeply sloping top tubes, rudimentary suspension forks and seatposts,
and high adjustable stems with riser bars. *Oddly, most of these bikes
also have steep seat angles, making for a uniquely impotent rider
position.


http://www.chicagobikeblog.com/2007/...ort-bikes.html


Yikes. *My ass hurts just looking at that.


That's 'cause you don't use a seat, but rather a perch. My prostate
hurts when I look at those. With the right seat, a comfort bike is no
less comfortable than a barstool.

Anyway, the problem with comfort bikes is not that they're
uncomfortable in any way, but that they interfere with the rider's
ability to propel the bike. Kind of like a barstool in that regard,
too.

Most of the people who buy typical comfort bikes don't ride them very
much, from what I can tell. *The Electra Townie is an exception, in my
neck of the woods anyway, with noticeable representation among daily
transportational riders.


One of my friends has a Giant hybrid with the shocks and "comfy seat"
that he swears by. *He's always chortling about how roadies don't
understand comfort. *Then after 100k or so, he's complaining about his
sore ass, bitching about the wind and generally having a miserable time.


You understand that you are making a better case here for 'bents than
for real bikes, right? A bike that sucks for riding to the liquor
store still sucks, even if it's "less worse" after riding hours on
some nameless backroad. That goes the same for a 'bent or a spartan
road bike.

A perfect city car isn't ideal for long road trips, and to be fair a
comfort bike isn't ideal for anything at all except selling to a
certain kind of underinformed coward. But in the same way as it is
folly to buy your daily driver based on the two times a year you tow a
boat (or once every couple of years you go play on a racetrack), it's
folly to chose your everyday bike based on the every-couple-months
cycle outing you may or may not get around to doing.

I've offered to let him try my touring bike but he tells me he's into
more comfortable rides. *Go figure.

Sitting straight up, catching the wind directly in my chest with all of
my weight on my ass and the wide saddle chafing my thighs doesn't sound
like my idea of comfort.


Having my thumbs and pecker go numb for weeks from a too-low drop bar
and a mockery of a bike saddle doesn't sound like a heck of a lot of
fun to me, either. The bike industry dishes up plenty of foolishness
at the extremes. Good sensible moderate (and therefore old-fashioned)
bikes are comparatively underrepresented, though. Tried and true
conventions are difficult to market.

Here are some tried and true-- and truly comfortable-- bikes that my
shop carries. They are not fancy, but they don't make fundamental
mistakes in their layout.

http://www.linusbike.com/models/

Chalo
  #167  
Old December 11th 10, 12:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
thirty-six
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Posts: 10,049
Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

On Dec 10, 4:30*am, Tm Shermn _ ""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 12/9/2010 10:20 PM, James Steward wrote:

Tm Shermn _ wrote:
On 12/9/2010 8:27 PM, Michael Press wrote:
If trikes/bents are so much more comfortable why are the roads not
flooded with them? If you really want one you can buy one. Why don't
people do that? You can blame only yourself.
Most people prefer to resemble Eddy Merckx;
rather than resembling a circus clown.


Indeed, many are too weak to resist peer pressure.


Or clever enough to realise what's better.


Yes, most are not clever enough to realize most have it wrong.



I think you do have it wrong.

For efficient cycling the upright bicycle is king. With an upright
bicycle the rider's feet are below his hips when he needs to lift
them. This is the most economical application of power to the cranks
and having the legs pendulus means the smallest effort is needed to
just turn the cranks. Having the legs horizontal totally messes up
this neat little system so that excuses are often raised about using
the seat-back because of the inefficient pedalling dynamics.
  #168  
Old December 11th 10, 01:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tm Shermn _[_2_]
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Posts: 1,339
Default Drag Reduction is King

On 12/10/2010 5:07 PM, thirty-six aka Trevor Jeffrey wrote:
On Dec 10, 4:30 am, Tm Shermn _""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 12/9/2010 10:20 PM, James Steward wrote:

Tm Shermn _ wrote:
On 12/9/2010 8:27 PM, Michael Press wrote:
If trikes/bents are so much more comfortable why are the roads not
flooded with them? If you really want one you can buy one. Why don't
people do that? You can blame only yourself.
Most people prefer to resemble Eddy Merckx;
rather than resembling a circus clown.


Indeed, many are too weak to resist peer pressure.


Or clever enough to realise what's better.


Yes, most are not clever enough to realize most have it wrong.



I think you do have it wrong.

For efficient cycling the upright bicycle is king. With an upright
bicycle the rider's feet are below his hips when he needs to lift
them. This is the most economical application of power to the cranks
and having the legs pendulus means the smallest effort is needed to
just turn the cranks. Having the legs horizontal totally messes up
this neat little system so that excuses are often raised about using
the seat-back because of the inefficient pedalling dynamics.


In our universe, aerodynamic drag is the greatest retarding force on a
bicycle, except at low speeds. In Trevor's universe, things may be
different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_drag

--
Tm Shermn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #169  
Old December 11th 10, 01:37 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tm Shermn _[_2_]
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Posts: 1,339
Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

On 12/10/2010 1:36 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On 9 dec, 23:19, Tm Shermn _""twshermanREMOVE\"@THI
$southslope.net" wrote:
On 12/9/2010 4:15 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:





Op 9-12-2010 22:41, T m Sherm n _ schreef:
On 12/9/2010 1:37 PM, Duane H bert wrote:
On 12/9/2010 2:19 PM, Doc O'Leary wrote:
In ,
Tm Shermn " wrote:


Well, I have been in exactly one (1) LBS in the US where they both
have
fully equipped commuter bicycles for sale on the shop floor and would
not act with at least some disdain when inquired about them.


Again, and? I even noted that many bike shops in the US are poorly run,
but you can probably look at the culture they exist in to see why. I
mean, who do you think they *expect* to be coming in looking for a
comfort bike? Someone with a lot of cash to spend now and in the
future, or someone who is just looking to "try out" biking by buying
the
lowest-margin thing they can find and then stick it in the back of the
garage after 1 month?


You can't run a business supplying comfort bikes if the demand just
isn't there. If the industry had half a clue they'd be taking more
long-term steps to shift the balance over by fitting cycling in with
the
existing culture. Instead, they're doing short-term targeting of the
existing high-end recreational market.


What do you actually mean by comfort bikes? Bents? Touring? Something
else?


The bikes that would be really comfortable to the newbie are
crank-forward (CF) uprights and recumbents. The CF upright is certainly
an easier sell.


Why is that? I find bikes with a slack seattube angle uncomfortable. I
had some trouble to find a commuter that did not have a slack seattube
angle like the so called comfort bikes here in the Netherlands.


Lou


With a slack enough angle, a real seat [1] instead of a saddle with high
pressure points can be used.


Why is that? A saddle/seat is very personal. A slack seat angle
doesn't change that.


You can not use a real seat in a conventional upright position without
chafing/rear of the rider's thighs hitting the seat issues. On a CF
upright or recumbent, a real seat that does *not* concentrate all the
pressure on two small areas of the rider's perineum can be used.

The slack angle also takes all the
pressure off the rider's hands.


Is that the problem?


Why do upright riders need padded gloves, multiple hand positions, and
spend time riding hands-off while wringing their hands to bring back
feeling and/or to relieve cramps?

If all the pressure is off your hands all the
pressure is on your butt. The right saddle/seat choice is even more
important in that case. With crank forward designs you push yourself
into the seat while pedalling, increasing the pressure even more. Why
is that more comfortable?

Because it is a seat that applies pressure relatively evenly over a wide
area, unlike a bicycle saddle.


[1]http://www.ransbikes.com/Zenetik09/Enlarge09.html


I really don't get these bikes.


Based on actual experience or just visual impressions?

--
Tm Shermn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #170  
Old December 11th 10, 01:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tm Shermn _[_2_]
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Posts: 1,339
Default Insular roadie rubbish about seats/saddles

On 12/10/2010 7:14 AM, Duane Hbert wrote:
On 12/9/2010 4:41 PM, Tm Shermn _ wrote:
On 12/9/2010 1:37 PM, Duane Hbert wrote:


What do you actually mean by comfort bikes? Bents? Touring? Something
else?


The bikes that would be really comfortable to the newbie are
crank-forward (CF) uprights and recumbents. The CF upright is certainly
an easier sell.


Ah. Not sure if I agree with that. Most of us started riding uprights as
kids and kept with that style. CF looks odd to me as if my center of
gravity would be skewed. Just an observer's opinion though as I've never
tried one. But I find my Bianchi Volpe and my Specialized Tarmac both
pretty comfortable. The Bianchi slightly more so for rides over 140k or
so but neither is very bad. I think that it's what you're used to.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

butbutbut, the newbie is *not* used to riding a bicycle!!!

--
Tm Shermn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
 




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