Imagine that-Contador and Armstrong

On Sep 29, 5:23*pm, "Carl Sundquist" wrote:
"hizark21" wrote in message

...
Contador told he's still boss
(http://www.velonews.com/article/8375...e-s-still-boss)

It's naive to think that Alberto will remain the team captain. Even if
Contador is the official captain Lance will be the defacto one. In
many ways it's somewhat irrelevant since Bruyneel makes the key
decisions. Team leadership must be based upon results. So the only way
to sort out this situation is have conditions spelled out in Lance's
and Alberto's contracts. But in the end it's probably best for
Contador to move to another team.

"Spain's Alberto Contador says he has been given assurances from
Astana that he will remain team leader even if Lance Armstrong rides
with the squad. "

"The team has given me assurances that I will be the leader, but I
want to be doubly sure," the Spanish sports daily Marca quoted him as
saying. "I want to see exactly how this is going to pan out."

"If I am not satisfied with the way it is going, then I will leave,"
----------------------

On one hand it's a shame he sacrificed a year (if you can express not
defending your TdF title in those terms), but on the other hand winning the
Giro and Vuelta certainly expanded his value and broadened his appeal as a
champion.

Contador has certainly dramatically increased the PR value of Astana.
But at this point it's a bit hard to compare his value to Astana
versus Lance in terms of PR . The only fair way to handle the Lance
and Alberto is see who is the strongest in the TDF. If Lance is able
to regain most of his form than would gain time on Contador in the
first TT. But the question remains if Lance would be strong enough to
defend the yellow jersey in the mountains. My guess is that this would
be much more of a test for Lance. So if Lance falters in the Col's
than Contador would take the lead. Contador's TT ability may very well
play a key role in deciding to stay with Astana or not.

I was also noticing that Lance is considering riding the Giro. My
guess is that Lance wants to use the Giro as a training race and ride
into form. I am wondering if Lance has informal agreement with Johan
to use the Giro as the basis to determine the leader for the TDF.

The best TdF would be one where we
could see the best TdF rider (not best overall rider) ever vs. the
best one right now. *That should never happen between riders on the
same team.

I am not necessarily opposed to this, but does create a very tenuous
situation for a team. I tend to believe that Lance would ride in a
professional manner if he and Alberto ride the TDF together.

On Sep 30, 12:31*am, hizark21 wrote:
The best TdF would be one where we

could see the best TdF rider (not best overall rider) ever vs. the
best one right now. *That should never happen between riders on the
same team.

I am not necessarily opposed to this, but does create a very tenuous
situation for a team. I tend to believe that Lance would ride in a
professional manner if he and Alberto ride the TDF together.

Professional athletes on that level ride to win. Lance is no
domestique or gregario, so his type of professionalism won't allow him
to ride in front of Contador like Hincapie did for Lance in the high
mountain passes of the last few of the 7 TdF wins , and you'll
certainly never see Contador get a flat with Lance up the road, only
to see Lance turnaround, ride back down a mountain and give Contador
his wheel like Rene Vietto did for Antonin Magne in the 1934 TdF (when
Vietto was the virtual yellow jersey and could have won the TdF on his
own).

With Lance talking about the Giro, my bet is that you're going to see
a divying up of the Grand Tours, with Contador getting the TdF, Lance
the Giro (with some TdF and non-TdF riders) and Levi taking the scraps
with him to the Vuelta (i.e. with some TdF riders who didn't ride the
Giro, some Giro riders who didn't ride the Tour, and maybe even one or
two riders who've already done the Giro and the Tour. Levi gets the
shortest stick, but he won't be second fiddle at the easiest and least
prestigious of the Grand Tours. Don't forget that once-upon-a-time
bunch sprinters like Jalabert and friggin' Sean Kelly won the Vuelta.
With Lance back, the Vuelta field will be weak, and Levi has a good
chance to win the race even with a weak supporting cast.

On Sep 29, 10:44*pm, LawBoy01 wrote:
On Sep 30, 12:31*am, hizark21 wrote:

The best TdF would be one where we

could see the best TdF rider (not best overall rider) ever vs. the
best one right now. *That should never happen between riders on the
same team.

I am not necessarily opposed to this, but does create a very tenuous
situation for a team. I tend to believe that Lance would ride in a
professional manner if he and Alberto ride the TDF together.

Clarification:
By this I mean whoever is in the leaders jersey will lead the team. So
if Lance is in the lead then Alberto will not attack unless he loses
time and there is a chance of another team taking the Yellow jersey.
My guess is that we will see a scenario very similar to this years
Vuelta.. Even if the Contador is the designated team leader it will be
very hard for Johan to tell Lance to slow down in the TT.


Professional athletes on that level ride to win. *Lance is no
domestique or gregario, so his type of professionalism won't allow him
to ride in front of Contador like Hincapie did for Lance in the high
mountain passes of the last few of the 7 TdF wins , and you'll
certainly never see Contador get a flat with Lance up the road, only
to see Lance turnaround, ride back down a mountain and give Contador
his wheel like Rene Vietto did for Antonin Magne in the 1934 TdF (when
Vietto was the virtual yellow jersey and could have won the TdF on his
own).

With Lance talking about the Giro, my bet is that you're going to see
a divying up of the Grand Tours, with Contador getting the TdF, Lance
the Giro (with some TdF and non-TdF riders) and Levi taking the scraps
with him to the Vuelta (i.e. with some TdF riders who didn't ride the
Giro, some Giro riders who didn't ride the Tour, and maybe even one or
two riders who've already done the Giro and the Tour. *Levi gets the
shortest stick, but he won't be second fiddle at the easiest and least
prestigious of the Grand Tours. *Don't forget that once-upon-a-time
bunch sprinters like Jalabert and friggin' Sean Kelly won the Vuelta.
With Lance back, the Vuelta field will be weak, and Levi has a good
chance to win the race even with a weak supporting cast.

On Sep 30, 1:23*am, hizark21 wrote:
On Sep 29, 10:44*pm, LawBoy01 wrote: On Sep 30, 12:31*am, hizark21 wrote:

The best TdF would be one where we

could see the best TdF rider (not best overall rider) ever vs. the
best one right now. *That should never happen between riders on the
same team.

I am not necessarily opposed to this, but does create a very tenuous
situation for a team. I tend to believe that Lance would ride in a
professional manner if he and Alberto ride the TDF together.

Clarification:
By this I mean whoever is in the leaders jersey will lead the team. So
if Lance is in the lead then Alberto will not attack unless he loses
time and there is a chance of another team taking the Yellow jersey.
My guess is that we will see a scenario very similar to this years
Vuelta.. Even if the Contador is the designated team leader it will be
very hard for Johan to tell Lance to slow down in the TT.



Professional athletes on that level ride to win. *Lance is no
domestique or gregario, so his type of professionalism won't allow him
to ride in front of Contador like Hincapie did for Lance in the high
mountain passes of the last few of the 7 TdF wins , and you'll
certainly never see Contador get a flat with Lance up the road, only
to see Lance turnaround, ride back down a mountain and give Contador
his wheel like Rene Vietto did for Antonin Magne in the 1934 TdF (when
Vietto was the virtual yellow jersey and could have won the TdF on his
own).

With Lance talking about the Giro, my bet is that you're going to see
a divying up of the Grand Tours, with Contador getting the TdF, Lance
the Giro (with some TdF and non-TdF riders) and Levi taking the scraps
with him to the Vuelta (i.e. with some TdF riders who didn't ride the
Giro, some Giro riders who didn't ride the Tour, and maybe even one or
two riders who've already done the Giro and the Tour. *Levi gets the
shortest stick, but he won't be second fiddle at the easiest and least
prestigious of the Grand Tours. *Don't forget that once-upon-a-time
bunch sprinters like Jalabert and friggin' Sean Kelly won the Vuelta.
With Lance back, the Vuelta field will be weak, and Levi has a good
chance to win the race even with a weak supporting cast.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There was never a jersey switch in this year's Vuelta. Levi just
hoped for a better final TT result. I respect your opinion, but am
afraid my friend that you fail to see how this two sometimes one then
two and final leader in one team scenario works

On Sep 29, 11:37*pm, LawBoy01 wrote:
On Sep 30, 1:23*am, hizark21 wrote:



On Sep 29, 10:44*pm, LawBoy01 wrote: On Sep 30, 12:31*am, hizark21 wrote:

The best TdF would be one where we

could see the best TdF rider (not best overall rider) ever vs. the
best one right now. *That should never happen between riders on the
same team.

I am not necessarily opposed to this, but does create a very tenuous
situation for a team. I tend to believe that Lance would ride in a
professional manner if he and Alberto ride the TDF together.

Clarification:
By this I mean whoever is in the leaders jersey will lead the team. So
if Lance is in the lead then Alberto will not attack unless he loses
time and there is a chance of another team taking the Yellow jersey.
My guess is that we will see a scenario very similar to this years
Vuelta.. Even if the Contador is the designated team leader it will be
very hard for Johan to tell Lance to slow down in the TT.

Professional athletes on that level ride to win. *Lance is no
domestique or gregario, so his type of professionalism won't allow him
to ride in front of Contador like Hincapie did for Lance in the high
mountain passes of the last few of the 7 TdF wins , and you'll
certainly never see Contador get a flat with Lance up the road, only
to see Lance turnaround, ride back down a mountain and give Contador
his wheel like Rene Vietto did for Antonin Magne in the 1934 TdF (when
Vietto was the virtual yellow jersey and could have won the TdF on his
own).

With Lance talking about the Giro, my bet is that you're going to see
a divying up of the Grand Tours, with Contador getting the TdF, Lance
the Giro (with some TdF and non-TdF riders) and Levi taking the scraps
with him to the Vuelta (i.e. with some TdF riders who didn't ride the
Giro, some Giro riders who didn't ride the Tour, and maybe even one or
two riders who've already done the Giro and the Tour. *Levi gets the
shortest stick, but he won't be second fiddle at the easiest and least
prestigious of the Grand Tours. *Don't forget that once-upon-a-time
bunch sprinters like Jalabert and friggin' Sean Kelly won the Vuelta.
With Lance back, the Vuelta field will be weak, and Levi has a good
chance to win the race even with a weak supporting cast.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There was never a jersey switch in this year's Vuelta. *Levi just
hoped for a better final TT result. *I respect your opinion, but am
afraid my friend that you fail to see how this two sometimes one then
two and final leader in one team scenario works

How can you say this when Levi had the yellow jersey on stage 7 and
Alberto won it in the later stages. This clearly is a switch
regardless of Levi's intentions. Often times teams have a strategy
where some of the stronger riders on a team are allowed to go and win
the leaders jersey in the early stages. But even though these riders
are not strong enough to to retain the leaders jersey. They are not
under any obligation to give it up as well.

On Oct 1, 2:52*am, hizark21 wrote:
On Sep 29, 11:37*pm, LawBoy01 wrote:





On Sep 30, 1:23*am, hizark21 wrote:

On Sep 29, 10:44*pm, LawBoy01 wrote: On Sep 30, 12:31*am, hizark21 wrote:

The best TdF would be one where we

could see the best TdF rider (not best overall rider) ever vs. the
best one right now. *That should never happen between riders on the
same team.

I am not necessarily opposed to this, but does create a very tenuous
situation for a team. I tend to believe that Lance would ride in a
professional manner if he and Alberto ride the TDF together.

Clarification:
By this I mean whoever is in the leaders jersey will lead the team. So
if Lance is in the lead then Alberto will not attack unless he loses
time and there is a chance of another team taking the Yellow jersey.
My guess is that we will see a scenario very similar to this years
Vuelta.. Even if the Contador is the designated team leader it will be
very hard for Johan to tell Lance to slow down in the TT.

Professional athletes on that level ride to win. *Lance is no
domestique or gregario, so his type of professionalism won't allow him
to ride in front of Contador like Hincapie did for Lance in the high
mountain passes of the last few of the 7 TdF wins , and you'll
certainly never see Contador get a flat with Lance up the road, only
to see Lance turnaround, ride back down a mountain and give Contador
his wheel like Rene Vietto did for Antonin Magne in the 1934 TdF (when
Vietto was the virtual yellow jersey and could have won the TdF on his
own).

With Lance talking about the Giro, my bet is that you're going to see
a divying up of the Grand Tours, with Contador getting the TdF, Lance
the Giro (with some TdF and non-TdF riders) and Levi taking the scraps
with him to the Vuelta (i.e. with some TdF riders who didn't ride the
Giro, some Giro riders who didn't ride the Tour, and maybe even one or
two riders who've already done the Giro and the Tour. *Levi gets the
shortest stick, but he won't be second fiddle at the easiest and least
prestigious of the Grand Tours. *Don't forget that once-upon-a-time
bunch sprinters like Jalabert and friggin' Sean Kelly won the Vuelta.
With Lance back, the Vuelta field will be weak, and Levi has a good
chance to win the race even with a weak supporting cast.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There was never a jersey switch in this year's Vuelta. *Levi just
hoped for a better final TT result. *I respect your opinion, but am
afraid my friend that you fail to see how this two sometimes one then
two and final leader in one team scenario works

How can you say this when Levi had the yellow jersey on stage 7 and
Alberto won it in the later stages. This clearly is a switch
regardless of Levi's intentions. Often times teams have a strategy
where some of the stronger riders on a team are allowed to go and win
the leaders jersey in the early stages. But even though these riders
are not strong enough to to retain the leaders jersey. They are not
under any obligation to give it up as well.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The jersey switch comment - I was just plain wrong about that and had
forgotten about the switch on stage 7. My bad, you were right. But
that doesn't change my point. Victor Hugo Pena wore the yellow jersey
once, too and we never forgot for a minute that Lance was in charge.
I know Levi is no VHP, but on any team run by Bruyneel that has a true
GC threat like Contador, they just ain't no room for arguing about
who's in the boss in the team of 9, even with a top lieutenant in the
ranks like Levi.

On Oct 1, 12:51*pm, LawBoy01 wrote:
On Oct 1, 2:52*am, hizark21 wrote:



On Sep 29, 11:37*pm, LawBoy01 wrote:

On Sep 30, 1:23*am, hizark21 wrote:

On Sep 29, 10:44*pm, LawBoy01 wrote: On Sep 30, 12:31*am, hizark21 wrote:

The best TdF would be one where we

could see the best TdF rider (not best overall rider) ever vs.. the
best one right now. *That should never happen between riders on the
same team.

I am not necessarily opposed to this, but does create a very tenuous
situation for a team. I tend to believe that Lance would ride in a
professional manner if he and Alberto ride the TDF together.

Clarification:
By this I mean whoever is in the leaders jersey will lead the team. So
if Lance is in the lead then Alberto will not attack unless he loses
time and there is a chance of another team taking the Yellow jersey..
My guess is that we will see a scenario very similar to this years
Vuelta.. Even if the Contador is the designated team leader it will be
very hard for Johan to tell Lance to slow down in the TT.

Professional athletes on that level ride to win. *Lance is no
domestique or gregario, so his type of professionalism won't allow him
to ride in front of Contador like Hincapie did for Lance in the high
mountain passes of the last few of the 7 TdF wins , and you'll
certainly never see Contador get a flat with Lance up the road, only
to see Lance turnaround, ride back down a mountain and give Contador
his wheel like Rene Vietto did for Antonin Magne in the 1934 TdF (when
Vietto was the virtual yellow jersey and could have won the TdF on his
own).

With Lance talking about the Giro, my bet is that you're going to see
a divying up of the Grand Tours, with Contador getting the TdF, Lance
the Giro (with some TdF and non-TdF riders) and Levi taking the scraps
with him to the Vuelta (i.e. with some TdF riders who didn't ride the
Giro, some Giro riders who didn't ride the Tour, and maybe even one or
two riders who've already done the Giro and the Tour. *Levi gets the
shortest stick, but he won't be second fiddle at the easiest and least
prestigious of the Grand Tours. *Don't forget that once-upon-a-time
bunch sprinters like Jalabert and friggin' Sean Kelly won the Vuelta.
With Lance back, the Vuelta field will be weak, and Levi has a good
chance to win the race even with a weak supporting cast.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There was never a jersey switch in this year's Vuelta. *Levi just
hoped for a better final TT result. *I respect your opinion, but am
afraid my friend that you fail to see how this two sometimes one then
two and final leader in one team scenario works

How can you say this when Levi had the yellow jersey on stage 7 and
Alberto won it in the later stages. This clearly is a switch
regardless of Levi's intentions. Often times teams have a strategy
where some of the stronger riders on a team are allowed to go and win
the leaders jersey in the early stages. But even though these riders
are not strong enough to to retain the leaders jersey. They are not
under any obligation to give it up as well.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The jersey switch comment - I was just plain wrong about that and had
forgotten about the switch on stage 7. *My bad, you were right. *But
that doesn't change my point. *Victor Hugo Pena wore the yellow jersey
once, too and we never forgot for a minute that Lance was in charge.
I know Levi is no VHP, but on any team run by Bruyneel that has a true
GC threat like Contador, they just ain't no room for arguing about
who's in the boss in the team of 9, even with a top lieutenant in the
ranks like Levi.

I cannot think of a single case where a rider was forced to give up
the leaders jersey. The captain simply has greater riding abilities
so he loses the leaders jersey. So the jersey is team captain then
gets the yellow jersey.

On Oct 1, 9:41*pm, hizark21 wrote:
On Oct 1, 12:51*pm, LawBoy01 wrote:





On Oct 1, 2:52*am, hizark21 wrote:

On Sep 29, 11:37*pm, LawBoy01 wrote:

On Sep 30, 1:23*am, hizark21 wrote:

On Sep 29, 10:44*pm, LawBoy01 wrote: On Sep 30, 12:31*am, hizark21 wrote:

The best TdF would be one where we

could see the best TdF rider (not best overall rider) ever vs. the
best one right now. *That should never happen between riders on the
same team.

I am not necessarily opposed to this, but does create a very tenuous
situation for a team. I tend to believe that Lance would ride in a
professional manner if he and Alberto ride the TDF together.

Clarification:
By this I mean whoever is in the leaders jersey will lead the team. So
if Lance is in the lead then Alberto will not attack unless he loses
time and there is a chance of another team taking the Yellow jersey.
My guess is that we will see a scenario very similar to this years
Vuelta.. Even if the Contador is the designated team leader it will be
very hard for Johan to tell Lance to slow down in the TT.

Professional athletes on that level ride to win. *Lance is no
domestique or gregario, so his type of professionalism won't allow him
to ride in front of Contador like Hincapie did for Lance in the high
mountain passes of the last few of the 7 TdF wins , and you'll
certainly never see Contador get a flat with Lance up the road, only
to see Lance turnaround, ride back down a mountain and give Contador
his wheel like Rene Vietto did for Antonin Magne in the 1934 TdF (when
Vietto was the virtual yellow jersey and could have won the TdF on his
own).

With Lance talking about the Giro, my bet is that you're going to see
a divying up of the Grand Tours, with Contador getting the TdF, Lance
the Giro (with some TdF and non-TdF riders) and Levi taking the scraps
with him to the Vuelta (i.e. with some TdF riders who didn't ride the
Giro, some Giro riders who didn't ride the Tour, and maybe even one or
two riders who've already done the Giro and the Tour. *Levi gets the
shortest stick, but he won't be second fiddle at the easiest and least
prestigious of the Grand Tours. *Don't forget that once-upon-a-time
bunch sprinters like Jalabert and friggin' Sean Kelly won the Vuelta.
With Lance back, the Vuelta field will be weak, and Levi has a good
chance to win the race even with a weak supporting cast.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There was never a jersey switch in this year's Vuelta. *Levi just
hoped for a better final TT result. *I respect your opinion, but am
afraid my friend that you fail to see how this two sometimes one then
two and final leader in one team scenario works

How can you say this when Levi had the yellow jersey on stage 7 and
Alberto won it in the later stages. This clearly is a switch
regardless of Levi's intentions. Often times teams have a strategy
where some of the stronger riders on a team are allowed to go and win
the leaders jersey in the early stages. But even though these riders
are not strong enough to to retain the leaders jersey. They are not
under any obligation to give it up as well.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The jersey switch comment - I was just plain wrong about that and had
forgotten about the switch on stage 7. *My bad, you were right. *But
that doesn't change my point. *Victor Hugo Pena wore the yellow jersey
once, too and we never forgot for a minute that Lance was in charge.
I know Levi is no VHP, but on any team run by Bruyneel that has a true
GC threat like Contador, they just ain't no room for arguing about
who's in the boss in the team of 9, even with a top lieutenant in the
ranks like Levi.

I cannot think of a single case where a rider was forced to give up
the leaders jersey. *The captain simply has greater riding abilities
so he loses the leaders jersey. So the jersey is team captain then
gets the yellow jersey.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not sure your recollection (if accurate, and I'm not John
Wilcockson, so I'm not gonna haggle with you on that) proves your
point. I said I'm not sure, not that you're wrong. But your logic
seems circular, in that if Lance is in yellow and loses his jersey
because Contador was the strongest and team leader, or vice-versa (I
may not understand your point).