Comeback from doping... possible?

Looking at David Millar's pre and post-doping results, I'm wondering if
there are psychological issues that make it difficult to do well after
coming clean. What I'm suggesting is that someone who had doped, but no
longer does, may have a more difficult time not just against current
dopers, but those who are clean as well. The idea being that mentally,
you'd have doubts about your ability to compete at the highest levels
without doping... issues that someone with no experience doping might
not have (because they're not competing against an image of themselves
that existed only through doping).

I apologize that this is a bit of a ramble. I'm having a difficult time
really getting a handle on this, but maybe somebody else understands
what I'm trying to say and can explain it better. And suggest if there's
anything to it or not.

Thanks-

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:

Looking at David Millar's pre and post-doping results, I'm wondering if
there are psychological issues that make it difficult to do well after
coming clean. What I'm suggesting is that someone who had doped, but no
longer does, may have a more difficult time not just against current
dopers, but those who are clean as well. The idea being that mentally,
you'd have doubts about your ability to compete at the highest levels
without doping... issues that someone with no experience doping might
not have (because they're not competing against an image of themselves
that existed only through doping).

I apologize that this is a bit of a ramble. I'm having a difficult time
really getting a handle on this, but maybe somebody else understands
what I'm trying to say and can explain it better. And suggest if there's
anything to it or not.

You're asking if there's some mental block that prevents Millar from
returning to his previous form (or rather, what his previous form would
have been if he wasn't doping).

I have a counter-question: what if this is his best possible clean form?
I can see no reason to believe otherwise.

Also, he's old.

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
Also, he's old.

The Millar line is out of date.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
What I'm suggesting is that someone who had doped, but no
longer does,

How do you know this?

Bob Schwartz

On Jun 8, 1:06*am, "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote:
Looking at David Millar's pre and post-doping results, I'm wondering if
there are psychological issues that make it difficult to do well after
coming clean. What I'm suggesting is that someone who had doped, but no
longer does, may have a more difficult time not just against current
dopers, but those who are clean as well. The idea being that mentally,
you'd have doubts about your ability to compete at the highest levels
without doping... issues that someone with no experience doping might
not have (because they're not competing against an image of themselves
that existed only through doping).

I apologize that this is a bit of a ramble. I'm having a difficult time
really getting a handle on this, but maybe somebody else understands
what I'm trying to say and can explain it better. And suggest if there's
anything to it or not.

Thanks-

--Mike-- * * Chain Reaction Bicycleswww.ChainReactionBicycles.com

I believe you are more perceptive than you realize. It is a mental and
moral weakness that will cause a rider to dope. Cycling is a hard
sport- it physically hurts to go that hard to win; the rider who dopes
cannot endure that agony and so looks for a way to achieve without the
suffering. When you go hard you can still push yourself, there are
times when you have focused on something else and managed to go faster
or further than before, but always there is a point where you decide
"enough !" and ease off. I believe that once such a rider has cracked
and given in he will never be able to take his body to the limits he
has gone before, much less beyond those limits. Heart rate monitoring
is a way for riders can quantify their pain and bring their effort to
a level they are familiar with- but the max heart rate line is one
that nearly impossible to cross on a conscious level, even though
physically it is achieveable.

wrote:

the max heart rate line is one
that nearly impossible to cross on a conscious level, even though
physically it is achieveable.

The word "maximum?" I don't think it means what you think it means.

Ryan Cousineau wrote:
I have a counter-question: what if this is his best possible clean form?
I can see no reason to believe otherwise.

Also, he's old.

Yes, we are now five years past the raid at his home. Five years. He
was 27 then, he's 32 now.

Back in the days when EPO was king we saw riders whose form declined
over five year periods for reasons that had nothing to do with dope.

When Eddy Merckx was 27 he was the best rider the world had ever seen.
At 32 he was retired. When Indurain was 27 he kicked ass in the Giro
and a month later he kicked ass again in the Tour. At 32 he wasn't
even top ten in the Tour.

You guys are in the Lafferty Zone here. It is entirely possible that
Millar's still on the ****, but that he's just not as fast at 32 as he
was at 27. People are assuming that he's clean because he sucks.
That's the Lafferty Zone.

Bob Schwartz

"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
What I'm suggesting is that someone who had doped, but no longer
does,

How do you know this?

Bob Schwartz

I don't (know that Millar is clean). Clean or not, it's still a
question. Does an who once doped have a difficult time coming back to
his or her pre-doping potential?

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

On Jun 8, 10:53*am, "Robert Chung"
wrote:
wrote:
the max heart rate line is one
that nearly impossible to cross on a conscious level, even though
physically it is achieveable.

The word "maximum?" I don't think it means what you think it means.

try it; use your hrm, get on rollers or a trainer and get your heart
rate to as high as you've ever seen it- then try to get it higher- you
might be able to, but you will be at a point where the pain is so
great that you feel you cannot do more and give in. your heart is
capable of going faster but you will never be able to consciously
bring yourself to it's maximum, you can only achieve "your" maximum.

wrote:
On Jun 8, 10:53 am, "Robert Chung"
wrote:
wrote:
the max heart rate line is one
that nearly impossible to cross on a conscious level, even though
physically it is achieveable.
The word "maximum?" I don't think it means what you think it means.

try it; use your hrm, get on rollers or a trainer and get your heart
rate to as high as you've ever seen it- then try to get it higher- you
might be able to, but you will be at a point where the pain is so
great that you feel you cannot do more and give in. your heart is
capable of going faster but you will never be able to consciously
bring yourself to it's maximum, you can only achieve "your" maximum.

For the past 9 months I've been hitting 238-239 on almost every hard
ride I have done.