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drill/tap in frames



 
 
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  #1  
Old July 7th 18, 03:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default drill/tap in frames

Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
ones I can test on but I thought I'd
ask anyway.

Do you use normal power hand tools like
a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
possible with the desired bolt position)?

Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
a 5.0mm drill?

And you can use chainsaw oil, right?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #2  
Old July 7th 18, 04:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,959
Default drill/tap in frames

On 7/7/2018 10:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
ones I can test on but I thought I'd
ask anyway.

Do you use normal power hand tools like
a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
possible with the desired bolt position)?

Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
a 5.0mm drill?

And you can use chainsaw oil, right?


Exactly what are you planning to attach, and where?

If you're drilling and tapping in (say) rear dropouts, normal practices
should be fine. But if you're planning on drilling and tapping frame
tubes, you probably wont' have sufficient wall thickness in the tubes.

It's usually considered proper to give tapped holes a thread depth at
least 1.5 times the screw diameter. So for a 5mm screw, you'd want 7.5mm
of thickness. Sometimes a little less can be OK. But your frame tube
walls are probably less than 1mm thickness. That's not enough.

So you probably want to install "Rivnuts" instead.
https://www.boellhoff.com/us-en/prod...uts-rivnut.php

This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody
should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop.
Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for
anyone with normal mechanical skills.

Here's a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_uu_ba6qAM
but it's also easy to install these without special tools.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #3  
Old July 7th 18, 04:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default drill/tap in frames

Frank Krygowski wrote:

If you're drilling and tapping in (say) rear
dropouts, normal practices should be fine.
But if you're planning on drilling and
tapping frame tubes, you probably wont' have
sufficient wall thickness in the tubes.

It's usually considered proper to give tapped
holes a thread depth at least 1.5 times the
screw diameter. So for a 5mm screw, you'd
want 7.5mm of thickness. Sometimes a little
less can be OK. But your frame tube walls are
probably less than 1mm thickness.
That's not enough.


The stays that hold the chainguard, both from
the front and under, are very thin, probably
around 1mm. Still it is enough for a couple of
Torx flat-headed M5 screws to hold it (1 from
under, 2 front, the one at the rear is usually
bolted tho with a nut on the other side).

The down stay is also fastened in the same way
to the frame. (I don't know how the front one
is attached because you typically don't remove
it. But I'll check it out.)

With Loctite I suppose it'd be even more
strength to it?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
  #4  
Old July 7th 18, 08:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,801
Default drill/tap in frames

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody
should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop.
Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for
anyone with normal mechanical skills.


That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/

Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts
(steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue
(plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter.

Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum
frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber).


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #5  
Old July 11th 18, 04:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default drill/tap in frames

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody
should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop.
Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for
anyone with normal mechanical skills.


That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/

Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts
(steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue
(plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter.

Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum
frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber).


One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts
deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-)

And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not
limited to bicycle maintenence :-)
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #6  
Old July 11th 18, 05:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,801
Default drill/tap in frames

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:41:08 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody
should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop.
Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for
anyone with normal mechanical skills.


That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/

Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts
(steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue
(plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter.

Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum
frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber).


One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts
deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-)


I'm not sure about the deliberate part, but yes, one can buy them in
steel or aluminum. I couldn't find any plastic or carbon fiber
rivnuts.

And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not
limited to bicycle maintenence :-)


True. If those expounding on bicycle technology by various electronic
means really knew what they were doing, they would be riding instead
of pounding on the keyboard. If you really want to know how things
work, find someone that is actually doing the work and interrogate
them for the information you need and don't bother reading books,
manufacturers literature, magazines, forums, and newsgroups. The only
downside is that those who really know, tend to be inarticulate and
have difficulties explaining complex concepts, like which way to
tighten a right handed bolt. However, persistence, intimidation, and
perhaps bribery will eventually produce the required answer from a
real expert.

As I mentioned, I have successfully trashed most everything I've tried
to do with Rivnuts on bicycles, and therefore have no opinion on the
matter. However, it might be interesting to try a simple test. I
could probably finance the test by taking bets on the outcome.

Take two identical lengths of steel bicycle tubing. Install a Rivnut
in only one tube at midpoint. Clamp one end in a pipe vise. Pull on
the other end with a Come-Along perpendicular to the tubing. Measure
the force with a load cell. Draw a graph to show when the tubing went
plastic and eventually buckled. Compare results between the tubing
with and without the Rivnut. That should settle the debate whether
Rivnuts are detrimental to frame and stay strength.
--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #7  
Old July 11th 18, 07:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,485
Default drill/tap in frames

On 7/11/2018 11:42 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:41:08 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody
should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop.
Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for
anyone with normal mechanical skills.

That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/

Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts
(steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue
(plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter.

Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum
frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber).


One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts
deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-)


I'm not sure about the deliberate part, but yes, one can buy them in
steel or aluminum. I couldn't find any plastic or carbon fiber
rivnuts.

And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not
limited to bicycle maintenence :-)


True. If those expounding on bicycle technology by various electronic
means really knew what they were doing, they would be riding instead
of pounding on the keyboard. If you really want to know how things
work, find someone that is actually doing the work and interrogate
them for the information you need and don't bother reading books,
manufacturers literature, magazines, forums, and newsgroups. The only
downside is that those who really know, tend to be inarticulate and
have difficulties explaining complex concepts, like which way to
tighten a right handed bolt. However, persistence, intimidation, and
perhaps bribery will eventually produce the required answer from a
real expert.

As I mentioned, I have successfully trashed most everything I've tried
to do with Rivnuts on bicycles, and therefore have no opinion on the
matter. However, it might be interesting to try a simple test. I
could probably finance the test by taking bets on the outcome.

Take two identical lengths of steel bicycle tubing. Install a Rivnut
in only one tube at midpoint. Clamp one end in a pipe vise. Pull on
the other end with a Come-Along perpendicular to the tubing. Measure
the force with a load cell. Draw a graph to show when the tubing went
plastic and eventually buckled. Compare results between the tubing
with and without the Rivnut. That should settle the debate whether
Rivnuts are detrimental to frame and stay strength.


I think the question isn't so much 'has the tube's ultimate
strength been diminished?' but rather 'is it yet strong
enough for expected application?'.

In theory and in absolute yes the tube is less strong. In
practice, from Santana ExoGrid tandems to Bianchi thinwall
tempered aluminum models, to their carbon bikes, rivnuts are
not a failure point.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #8  
Old July 11th 18, 11:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 23
Default drill/tap in frames

On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:42:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:41:08 -0700, John B. Slocomb
wrote:

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 12:33:38 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 11:06:52 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

This group has debated Rivnuts extensively. One poster claims nobody
should install a Rivnut unless he has access to a complete machine shop.
Others with more experience have said that the installation is easy for
anyone with normal mechanical skills.

That would be SMS (Steven Scharf) on one of his web pages:
http://nordicgroup.us/cageboss/

Since I've made a mess with all the available technologies, Rivnuts
(steel and aluminum), brazing (steel), TIG (aluminum), and epoxy glue
(plastic boss on aluminum), I'll remain neutral on the matter.

Hint: Use steel Rivnuts on steel frames, aluminum Rivnuts on aluminum
frame, and plastic straps or clamps on CF (carbon fiber).


One can only suppose that those "dumb asses: that manufacture rivnuts
deliberately make their product in a number of materials :-)


I'm not sure about the deliberate part, but yes, one can buy them in
steel or aluminum. I couldn't find any plastic or carbon fiber
rivnuts.

And, it might be added that not knowing what you are doing is not
limited to bicycle maintenence :-)


True. If those expounding on bicycle technology by various electronic
means really knew what they were doing, they would be riding instead
of pounding on the keyboard. If you really want to know how things
work, find someone that is actually doing the work and interrogate
them for the information you need and don't bother reading books,
manufacturers literature, magazines, forums, and newsgroups. The only
downside is that those who really know, tend to be inarticulate and
have difficulties explaining complex concepts, like which way to
tighten a right handed bolt. However, persistence, intimidation, and
perhaps bribery will eventually produce the required answer from a
real expert.

As I mentioned, I have successfully trashed most everything I've tried
to do with Rivnuts on bicycles, and therefore have no opinion on the
matter. However, it might be interesting to try a simple test. I
could probably finance the test by taking bets on the outcome.

Take two identical lengths of steel bicycle tubing. Install a Rivnut
in only one tube at midpoint. Clamp one end in a pipe vise. Pull on
the other end with a Come-Along perpendicular to the tubing. Measure
the force with a load cell. Draw a graph to show when the tubing went
plastic and eventually buckled. Compare results between the tubing
with and without the Rivnut. That should settle the debate whether
Rivnuts are detrimental to frame and stay strength.



(Big Smile) I know a bike builder who accidentally did just that, with
out the rivnut being installed - bending the curve into the front fork
blades with a 5 foot bar :-)

But as an aside, anything will break given sufficient force applied
which doesn't prove much of anything.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #9  
Old July 7th 18, 04:38 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,485
Default drill/tap in frames

On 7/7/2018 9:27 AM, Emanuel Berg wrote:
Are there any secrets to drilling holes in
steel bike frames? I have a couple of discarded
ones I can test on but I thought I'd
ask anyway.

Do you use normal power hand tools like
a drill-screwdriver and/or a drill press (if
possible with the desired bolt position)?

Do the normal rules apply, e.g. to get
a threaded hole for an M6, you first drill with
a 5.0mm drill?

And you can use chainsaw oil, right?


Subtract pitch from major diameter, e.g., tap drill for an
m5x0.8 is 4.2mm and use lard-sulphur cutting oil for
drilling and tapping in steel.

Yes use chainsaw oil on your chainsaw.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #10  
Old July 7th 18, 04:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Emanuel Berg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 874
Default drill/tap in frames

AMuzi wrote:

Subtract pitch from major diameter, e.g., tap
drill for an m5x0.8 is 4.2mm


Well, then you still have to look up the pitch,
which is in the same table as the drill
diameter, all of which is faster than the
thread gauge...

Yes use chainsaw oil on your chainsaw.


Won't that trigger a dangerous chain reaction?

--
underground experts united
http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573
 




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