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  #191  
Old October 16th 13, 12:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default crowded Dutch bikepaths

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 21:40:50 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:26:21 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Duane writes:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 01:57:08 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

On 14/10/2013 00:48, John B. wrote:

I almost hesitate to say it, but Utopia seems to look more like
the enlightened socialist societies (?)

And the "enlightened Socialist Societies" are those places where the
very highly skilled weep bitter tears about the high taxes that they
pay to allow the unskilled to live in splendor?

The ones with the highest happiness ratings you mean?

I've always wondered why this is considered utopian in contrast to a
society where every citizen is guaranteed a job.

Which society guarantees every citizen a job?

the point was why it is considered utopian to support people who don't
work rather then striving for a population that is gainfully
employed.

To me a utopian society would be one in which only those that choose to
work would work. I.e. Fantasy such as Star Trek.
Not that I disagree with your point that it would be better to strive
toward full employment because I don't. Just that I think it nearly as
impossible as a utopian society.

I doubt people would be very happy, long term, if they didn't have to
work at *something*. Historically, the idle classes have made an
avocation out of telling others what to do, but that can't work for
everyone.

A typical member of my utopian society would work as a nuclear physicist
three days a week, and a garbageman one, because even in utopia **** has
to get done.


Yes. That sounds like Utopia.... but in real life it is seldom that
nuclear physicists are seen pitching garbage bins into the back of
trucks.


Shortly after the USSR went belly up I suspect you might have been able
to find some.

Or, for that matter, one seldom sees Garbage Men in Nuclear Physics
labs :-)


Back in the latter days of the British Empire, many a gentleman would
have been shocked to think that, one day, he might be expected to button
his own shirt in the morning. I don't want a Cultural Revolution, but
think we should go the other way.


You are not married? My wife in some instances has buttoned my shirt,
bandaged my cuts and handed me my crutches :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.
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  #192  
Old October 16th 13, 06:22 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,747
Default crowded Dutch bikepaths

John B. writes:

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 21:40:50 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:26:21 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Duane writes:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 01:57:08 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

On 14/10/2013 00:48, John B. wrote:

I almost hesitate to say it, but Utopia seems to look more like
the enlightened socialist societies (?)

And the "enlightened Socialist Societies" are those places where the
very highly skilled weep bitter tears about the high taxes that they
pay to allow the unskilled to live in splendor?

The ones with the highest happiness ratings you mean?

I've always wondered why this is considered utopian in contrast to a
society where every citizen is guaranteed a job.

Which society guarantees every citizen a job?

the point was why it is considered utopian to support people who don't
work rather then striving for a population that is gainfully
employed.

To me a utopian society would be one in which only those that choose to
work would work. I.e. Fantasy such as Star Trek.
Not that I disagree with your point that it would be better to strive
toward full employment because I don't. Just that I think it nearly as
impossible as a utopian society.

I doubt people would be very happy, long term, if they didn't have to
work at *something*. Historically, the idle classes have made an
avocation out of telling others what to do, but that can't work for
everyone.

A typical member of my utopian society would work as a nuclear physicist
three days a week, and a garbageman one, because even in utopia **** has
to get done.

Yes. That sounds like Utopia.... but in real life it is seldom that
nuclear physicists are seen pitching garbage bins into the back of
trucks.


Shortly after the USSR went belly up I suspect you might have been able
to find some.

Or, for that matter, one seldom sees Garbage Men in Nuclear Physics
labs :-)


Back in the latter days of the British Empire, many a gentleman would
have been shocked to think that, one day, he might be expected to button
his own shirt in the morning. I don't want a Cultural Revolution, but
think we should go the other way.


You are not married? My wife in some instances has buttoned my shirt,
bandaged my cuts and handed me my crutches :-)


You wouldn't prefer a gentleman's gentleman? How barbaric.

--
  #193  
Old October 16th 13, 06:24 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,747
Default crowded Dutch bikepaths

John B. writes:

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:08:41 -0700 (PDT), Dan O
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 4:34:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:12:20 -0700, Dan wrote:
Radey Shouman writes:
Duane writes:
John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 01:57:08 +0100, Clive George wrote:
On 14/10/2013 00:48, John B. wrote:


[Dan wrote]: I almost hesitate to say it, but Utopia
seems to look more like
the enlightened socialist societies (?)

And the "enlightened Socialist Societies" are those places where the
very highly skilled weep bitter tears about the high taxes that they
pay to allow the unskilled to live in splendor?

The ones with the highest happiness ratings you mean?

I've always wondered why this is considered utopian in contrast to a
society where every citizen is guaranteed a job.

Which society guarantees every citizen a job?

the point was why it is considered utopian to support people who don't
work rather then striving for a population that is gainfully
employed.

To me a utopian society would be one in which only those that choose to
work would work. I.e. Fantasy such as Star Trek.
Not that I disagree with your point that it would be better to strive
toward full employment because I don't. Just that I think it nearly as
impossible as a utopian society.

I doubt people would be very happy, long term, if they didn't have to
work at *something*. Historically, the idle classes have made an
avocation out of telling others what to do, but that can't work for
everyone.

A typical member of my utopian society would work as a nuclear physicist
three days a week, and a garbageman one, because even in utopia **** has
to get done.


Damn! You share my exact vision!!

(We should talk over coffee or beers sometime :-)

However, when sharing my vision with someone one day, he remarked
that he hoped his brain surgery wasn't scheduled on the day that
another person we both knew was in the OR.

I had to agree and consider some refinements.

But anyway yes that's it *exactly*!

OTOH, Utopia by its nature is always out of reach.

When is your day on the garbage truck?


Probably the hottest day of the year. Splendid! (I treasure such
epic experiences.)


Another point, I understand that countries such as the U.SA. no longer
have garbage, or garbage men. From my days as a consultant it seems
that y'all have solid waste, and solid waste engineers, and solid
waste consultants.


I have never heard one referred to in person by one of those pejorative
terms.

Garbage is so outmoded that only developing countries have it any more
:-)


--
  #194  
Old October 17th 13, 03:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default crowded Dutch bikepaths

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 13:24:16 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 12:08:41 -0700 (PDT), Dan O
wrote:

On Tuesday, October 15, 2013 4:34:50 AM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:12:20 -0700, Dan wrote:
Radey Shouman writes:
Duane writes:
John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 01:57:08 +0100, Clive George wrote:
On 14/10/2013 00:48, John B. wrote:

[Dan wrote]: I almost hesitate to say it, but Utopia
seems to look more like
the enlightened socialist societies (?)

And the "enlightened Socialist Societies" are those places where the
very highly skilled weep bitter tears about the high taxes that they
pay to allow the unskilled to live in splendor?

The ones with the highest happiness ratings you mean?

I've always wondered why this is considered utopian in contrast to a
society where every citizen is guaranteed a job.

Which society guarantees every citizen a job?

the point was why it is considered utopian to support people who don't
work rather then striving for a population that is gainfully
employed.

To me a utopian society would be one in which only those that choose to
work would work. I.e. Fantasy such as Star Trek.
Not that I disagree with your point that it would be better to strive
toward full employment because I don't. Just that I think it nearly as
impossible as a utopian society.

I doubt people would be very happy, long term, if they didn't have to
work at *something*. Historically, the idle classes have made an
avocation out of telling others what to do, but that can't work for
everyone.

A typical member of my utopian society would work as a nuclear physicist
three days a week, and a garbageman one, because even in utopia **** has
to get done.


Damn! You share my exact vision!!

(We should talk over coffee or beers sometime :-)

However, when sharing my vision with someone one day, he remarked
that he hoped his brain surgery wasn't scheduled on the day that
another person we both knew was in the OR.

I had to agree and consider some refinements.

But anyway yes that's it *exactly*!

OTOH, Utopia by its nature is always out of reach.

When is your day on the garbage truck?


Probably the hottest day of the year. Splendid! (I treasure such
epic experiences.)


Another point, I understand that countries such as the U.SA. no longer
have garbage, or garbage men. From my days as a consultant it seems
that y'all have solid waste, and solid waste engineers, and solid
waste consultants.


I have never heard one referred to in person by one of those pejorative
terms.

As it happens after I wrote the above I went downtown to pay the road
tax on my pickup and made a wrong turn and instead of the Motor
Vehicle Department I drove into the "SOLID WASTE DEPARTMENT". Big sign
on the entrance and what I would call garbage trucks backing and
filling. The gate keeper kindly gave me permission to drive into the
yard to turn around and directions back up the road to the correct
gate :-) Cost me US$ 29,00 for the next year's road tax.

Garbage is so outmoded that only developing countries have it any more
:-)

--
Cheers,

John B.
  #195  
Old October 17th 13, 03:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,697
Default crowded Dutch bikepaths

On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 13:22:33 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Tue, 15 Oct 2013 21:40:50 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

John B. writes:

On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 19:26:21 -0400, Radey Shouman
wrote:

Duane writes:

John B. wrote:
On Mon, 14 Oct 2013 01:57:08 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

On 14/10/2013 00:48, John B. wrote:

I almost hesitate to say it, but Utopia seems to look more like
the enlightened socialist societies (?)

And the "enlightened Socialist Societies" are those places where the
very highly skilled weep bitter tears about the high taxes that they
pay to allow the unskilled to live in splendor?

The ones with the highest happiness ratings you mean?

I've always wondered why this is considered utopian in contrast to a
society where every citizen is guaranteed a job.

Which society guarantees every citizen a job?

the point was why it is considered utopian to support people who don't
work rather then striving for a population that is gainfully
employed.

To me a utopian society would be one in which only those that choose to
work would work. I.e. Fantasy such as Star Trek.
Not that I disagree with your point that it would be better to strive
toward full employment because I don't. Just that I think it nearly as
impossible as a utopian society.

I doubt people would be very happy, long term, if they didn't have to
work at *something*. Historically, the idle classes have made an
avocation out of telling others what to do, but that can't work for
everyone.

A typical member of my utopian society would work as a nuclear physicist
three days a week, and a garbageman one, because even in utopia **** has
to get done.

Yes. That sounds like Utopia.... but in real life it is seldom that
nuclear physicists are seen pitching garbage bins into the back of
trucks.

Shortly after the USSR went belly up I suspect you might have been able
to find some.

Or, for that matter, one seldom sees Garbage Men in Nuclear Physics
labs :-)

Back in the latter days of the British Empire, many a gentleman would
have been shocked to think that, one day, he might be expected to button
his own shirt in the morning. I don't want a Cultural Revolution, but
think we should go the other way.


You are not married? My wife in some instances has buttoned my shirt,
bandaged my cuts and handed me my crutches :-)


You wouldn't prefer a gentleman's gentleman? How barbaric.


In this modern age one has multipurpose support - multi-function one
might say, and while some might prefer a gentleman's gentleman I find
that those of the feminine gender are preferable - a Gentleman's
Lady??
--
Cheers,

John B.
 




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