"A Dutch Guy Is Disgusted By America, But He Has A Hell Of A Point"

On Monday, September 30, 2013 6:23:12 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:

On 30/09/13 13:05, Frank Krygowski wrote:

I think it _is_ different now. Examples: I play traditional tunes
with various friends. I ran into one fellow musician at a concert of
Irish traditional music, and he bragged that he was packing a
firearm. What the hell? You need a gun to go hear jigs and reels??
Another guy at one get-together proudly showed me photos of his "new
baby": an assault rifle. (BTW, when I told that guy about our bike
tour this summer, he said he'd never be out on a bike without his
biggest pistol and his combat knife in a hidden sheath. What the
hell??)

Gun fans who were content with a shotgun and a pistol a generation
ago now don't seem to feel "safe" unless they've got a 30 round
capacity, and the ability to slam 30 more in at a moment's notice.
What the hell??

snip

Nobody needs 30 rounds to hunt anything.

snip

... I seem to find myself in the very unusual position of agreeing
with Frank.

snip

I am with Frank 100% on that quoted above (unusual, but not so *very*
unusual as things might seem).

snip

What do

you suggest?

MACE

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 8:05:14 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, September 29, 2013 7:45:50 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:



Granted I've not been back to America for quite a while but when I was

there I can't remember ever hearing that tripe. We had target

shooters, trap and skeet shooters, hunters and some collectors. I

never heard anyone extol the M-16, for example.



I think it _is_ different now. Examples: I play traditional tunes with various friends. I ran into one fellow musician at a concert of Irish traditional music, and he bragged that he was packing a firearm. What the hell? You need a gun to go hear jigs and reels??

No, but after about the sixth jig or reel, I would want to shoot the musicians. "Stop . . . please make it stop!" Another good reason for not arming the citizenry.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 9/30/2013 2:29 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Sunday, September 29, 2013 8:05:14 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Sunday, September 29, 2013 7:45:50 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:



Granted I've not been back to America for quite a while but when I was

there I can't remember ever hearing that tripe. We had target

shooters, trap and skeet shooters, hunters and some collectors. I

never heard anyone extol the M-16, for example.



I think it _is_ different now. Examples: I play traditional tunes with various friends. I ran into one fellow musician at a concert of Irish traditional music, and he bragged that he was packing a firearm. What the hell? You need a gun to go hear jigs and reels??

No, but after about the sixth jig or reel, I would want to shoot the musicians. "Stop . . . please make it stop!" Another good reason for not arming the citizenry.

Or if it was Scottish and there were bagpipes involved.

What do



you suggest?


Mental health awareness as part of everyday life.

I say we throw him over the side.

On Monday, September 30, 2013 1:27:22 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:


I agree that we don't seem to be slowing up armed robbery,
assault, rape, home invasion or carjacking so far. What do
you suggest?

Well, we actually _are_ slowing up such crimes. For example, the FBI says "In 2011, an estimated 1,203,564 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of 3.8 percent from the 2010 estimate. When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2011 estimated violent crime total was 15.4 percent below the 2007 level and 15.5 percent below the 2002 level."
http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr.../violent-crime

Violent crimes in the U.S. have come down quite a bit from their peaks around the early 1990s, and as van Uhm noted, they're far, far more rare than in earlier times. But you'd never know that by listening to the worriers (including those packing guns).
See http://www.wanttoknow.info/g/violent...ates_reduction

What to do to reduce crimes further? I could consult with the criminal justice professor and ex-cop who's one of my best friends. But in the spirit of Usenet, let me just talk off the top of my head. ;-)

First, I do believe cops can make a difference through enforcement. New York's "stop and frisk" gets attacked by some, but it certainly seems effective. A similar program in our area (where known hoodlums get pulled over for the smallest violation) has gotten lots of illegal guns off the streets and knocked the murder rate way down.

Also, there are better ways to allocate police resources. There's lots of work going on about predictive and preventive enforcement. Community policing seems to help, where cops are out of squad cars and present in the community, getting to know people. Bike cops are an example, but so are classic beat cops. Those seem to work better than zooming in with a squad car after the crime has happened. Block watches help, too.

But more fundamental - and more difficult - are societal changes. We've got boys growing up without (known) fathers. We've got cultures where learning in school and/or working well at a job are disparaged and mocked. We've got huge numbers of people who see no value in community or working for common good, and who want nothing beyond thrills and possessions. Those factors need turned around, but I don't know how to do it. I suspect that churches and other community groups might be the key, but of course, lots of folks disparage them, and disparage behavior that would prevent someone from being a single parent at 16.

I do think we need a way for a young man to earn an adequate living, if he does decide to get off his butt and straighten up. But that seems to be getting more and more difficult, with youth being squeezed between a "college or nothing" emphasis on the one hand, and impossibly low wages working menial jobs for rich corporations on the other. See
http://www.forbes.com/sites/laurashi...ne-up-in-arms/

Rumor has it that Henry Ford gave big raises to his assembly line workers so they could buy his cars. CEOs don't seem to be doing that these days. Their plan seems to be to get as much as they can, into insane excess, even if it means taking it all away from the poor.

But overall, the greater the disparities in prosperity, the greater the likelihood of crime and other social unrest.

Hmm. You know, the Scandinavian countries are consistently at the top of the "world's happiest places" list. They consistently have very low murder rates, low rates of other crimes, high educational achievement, very good prosperity, low income disparity, excellent health care coverage... Why don't we just emulate them, and do what they do?

- Frank Krygowski

On Monday, September 30, 2013 12:12:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, September 30, 2013 1:27:22 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:

I agree that we don't seem to be slowing up armed robbery,
assault, rape, home invasion or carjacking so far. What do
you suggest?


snip


First, I do believe cops can make a difference through enforcement. New York's "stop and frisk" gets attacked by some, but it certainly seems effective. A similar program in our area (where known hoodlums get pulled over for the smallest violation)...


Uh-oh. (Note to self: Stay clear of Krygowski's neighborhood.)

snip


But more fundamental - and more difficult - are societal changes. We've got boys growing up without (known) fathers. We've got cultures where learning in school and/or working well at a job are disparaged and mocked. We've got huge numbers of people who see no value in community or working for common good, and who want nothing beyond thrills and possessions. Those factors need turned around, but I don't know how to do it. I suspect that churches and other community groups might be the key, but of course, lots of folks disparage them, and disparage behavior that would prevent someone from being a single parent at 16.

I do think we need a way for a young man to earn an adequate living, if he does decide to get off his butt and straighten up.


Uh-oh.

snip


Hmm. You know, the Scandinavian countries are consistently at the top of the "world's happiest places" list. They consistently have very low murder rates, low rates of other crimes, high educational achievement, very good prosperity, low income disparity, excellent health care coverage... Why don't we just emulate them, and do what they do?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Importa...ion_by_country

On Monday, September 30, 2013 11:33:00 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
On 9/30/2013 2:29 PM, Jay Beattie wrote:

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 8:05:14 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Sunday, September 29, 2013 7:45:50 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:







Granted I've not been back to America for quite a while but when I was



there I can't remember ever hearing that tripe. We had target



shooters, trap and skeet shooters, hunters and some collectors. I



never heard anyone extol the M-16, for example.







I think it _is_ different now. Examples: I play traditional tunes with various friends. I ran into one fellow musician at a concert of Irish traditional music, and he bragged that he was packing a firearm. What the hell? You need a gun to go hear jigs and reels??



No, but after about the sixth jig or reel, I would want to shoot the musicians. "Stop . . . please make it stop!" Another good reason for not arming the citizenry.



Or if it was Scottish and there were bagpipes involved.

I'm telling you, music and guns don't mix.

http://www.katu.com/news/local/Fed-u...218094081.html

bah technical BS

mexico is a happy place. MEXICO IS A ********.

Scandinavia is Tribal eg as Germany 1901. Remember the spiked helmet ?

USA is TV.

I live in Florida: first in violence, last in intelligence.

I planned and prepped for a 3 month Dolphin language tour on Fla's west coast till December when I am headed back to Imperial Dam for a recheck on bird seismology.

No cam do. Florida Mob and maybe state want $10000/year for a permit. I buy an apt for prostitution. They bill for electricity water n sewer.

Enforced by sonic booms waking me every hour.

Hey, this is your country.

Happy trails.