Look 461 or Specialized Tarmac Comp/Pro

Remember: this years's models will be last year's models in a month or
so.

Derk

you are absolutely right, this is why there are big discounts in my area on
2005 Madone 5.2, 5.2SL, 5.9 and 5.9SL but on Look 461/555 the discounts are
really tiny, perhaps 2%-5% on frame and on Madone it is 15-20% on 2005
stock.

This IMHO makes price Trek Madone 5.2 SL = Look 461 and 5.2 is cheaper than
Look 461. I therefore suspect Madone 5.2 at present represents better value
for money buying, no? I also somehow doubt that Look 461 will ride any
better than Madone 5.2 and is also heavier (?). Trek gives out longer
warranty compared to 5 years Look warranty. Both companies are masters of
carbon frames - should be nothing to worry about there.....

Sadly, there are no test rides that I can find so I have to go by personal
reviews such as yours....

thanks for your comments

Yuri Budilov wrote:

I therefore suspect Madone 5.2 at present represents better
value for money buying, no?
I don't know the Madone myself. There's nothing really wrong with the 461,
but:
-the LOOK is rather heavy for a modern carbon frame, but well, it's not THAT
important.
-I don't like the short chainstay of the LOOK myself.
-I don't like the fact that the height is an uneven number (55, 57, 59).
-I never want another integrated headset again.
-TREK's warranty seems to be really good. I saw many broken frame's from
amateurs here, who crashed and they just got a new frame without a problem.
10 years is a long time.

Personally I don't like the aero shape of the Madone's seat tube. How about
the TREK 5000 frameset?

I am at the moment riding a Merckx MX Leader that is far heavier than the
LOOK, but I don't ride any slower.......

Greets, Derk

Dans le message de ,
Yuri Budilov a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Remember: this years's models will be last year's models in a
month or so.

Derk

you are absolutely right, this is why there are big discounts in my
area on 2005 Madone 5.2, 5.2SL, 5.9 and 5.9SL but on Look 461/555 the
discounts are really tiny, perhaps 2%-5% on frame and on Madone it is
15-20% on 2005 stock.

I have no idea where you are, but in FR, the discounts can be enormous, plus
there are lots of closeout sales on the internet. 461's went for around 800
euros during winter, against their usual 1500 price.

LOOK is probably more strict with warranty problems, being a FR company.
But, neither the weight, not the odd-number sizes should cause worry. Top
tube sizes seem to run around 1cm change per vertical size change. Adjust
with a seatpost and stem choice.

What LOOK does demand, as I may have already written, is plain strength to
overcome short obstacles, like sprinters' hills and gap bridging. If
strength is lacking, you can expect to drop 2-3 gears and try to keep up,
but that is not the usual way to success.
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Vreneuil-sur-Seine FR

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:24:53 +0200, "Sandy"
wrote:

Dans le message de ,
Yuri Budilov a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Remember: this years's models will be last year's models in a
month or so.

Derk

you are absolutely right, this is why there are big discounts in my
area on 2005 Madone 5.2, 5.2SL, 5.9 and 5.9SL but on Look 461/555 the
discounts are really tiny, perhaps 2%-5% on frame and on Madone it is
15-20% on 2005 stock.

I have no idea where you are, but in FR, the discounts can be enormous, plus
there are lots of closeout sales on the internet. 461's went for around 800
euros during winter, against their usual 1500 price.

LOOK is probably more strict with warranty problems, being a FR company.
But, neither the weight, not the odd-number sizes should cause worry. Top
tube sizes seem to run around 1cm change per vertical size change. Adjust
with a seatpost and stem choice.

What LOOK does demand, as I may have already written, is plain strength to
overcome short obstacles, like sprinters' hills and gap bridging. If
strength is lacking, you can expect to drop 2-3 gears and try to keep up,
but that is not the usual way to success.

Dear Sandy,

Why would a LOOK require a rider to drop 2-3 gears to try to
keep up on short obstacles like sprinters' hills and gap
bridging?

Curiously,

Carl Fogel

wrote:


Why would a LOOK require a rider to drop 2-3 gears to try to
keep up on short obstacles like sprinters' hills and gap
bridging?
I don't understand that either, but I didn't want (dare) to bring it up.....


I think what Sandy means (correct me if I'm wrong) is what is often written
in french magazines: "rigid BB require cyclists to shift gears when you're
"parked" against a hill, whilst non-rigid brackets are more forgiving.

Greets, Derk

Dans le message de ,
a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré
:
On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:24:53 +0200, "Sandy"
wrote:

Dans le message de
, Yuri Budilov
a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Remember: this years's models will be last year's models in a
month or so.

Derk

you are absolutely right, this is why there are big discounts in my
area on 2005 Madone 5.2, 5.2SL, 5.9 and 5.9SL but on Look 461/555
the discounts are really tiny, perhaps 2%-5% on frame and on Madone
it is 15-20% on 2005 stock.

I have no idea where you are, but in FR, the discounts can be
enormous, plus there are lots of closeout sales on the internet.
461's went for around 800 euros during winter, against their usual
1500 price.

LOOK is probably more strict with warranty problems, being a FR
company. But, neither the weight, not the odd-number sizes should
cause worry. Top tube sizes seem to run around 1cm change per
vertical size change. Adjust with a seatpost and stem choice.

What LOOK does demand, as I may have already written, is plain
strength to overcome short obstacles, like sprinters' hills and gap
bridging. If strength is lacking, you can expect to drop 2-3 gears
and try to keep up, but that is not the usual way to success.

Dear Sandy,

Why would a LOOK require a rider to drop 2-3 gears to try to
keep up on short obstacles like sprinters' hills and gap
bridging?

As usual, you did not really read this. You were teaching something, once
upon a time ?

Pointing it out exactly, the answer appears in the second, third, foruth and
fifth words of the sentence you want clarification of. Now, don't poach any
more stray ideas here. Start your own quest....
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Vreneuil-sur-Seine FR

Dans le message de ,
Sandy a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Dans le message de ,
a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:24:53 +0200, "Sandy"
wrote:

Dans le message de
, Yuri Budilov
a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Remember: this years's models will be last year's models in a
month or so.

Derk

you are absolutely right, this is why there are big discounts in my
area on 2005 Madone 5.2, 5.2SL, 5.9 and 5.9SL but on Look 461/555
the discounts are really tiny, perhaps 2%-5% on frame and on Madone
it is 15-20% on 2005 stock.

I have no idea where you are, but in FR, the discounts can be
enormous, plus there are lots of closeout sales on the internet.
461's went for around 800 euros during winter, against their usual
1500 price.

LOOK is probably more strict with warranty problems, being a FR
company. But, neither the weight, not the odd-number sizes should
cause worry. Top tube sizes seem to run around 1cm change per
vertical size change. Adjust with a seatpost and stem choice.

What LOOK does demand, as I may have already written, is plain
strength to overcome short obstacles, like sprinters' hills and gap
bridging. If strength is lacking, you can expect to drop 2-3 gears
and try to keep up, but that is not the usual way to success.

Dear Sandy,

Why would a LOOK require a rider to drop 2-3 gears to try to
keep up on short obstacles like sprinters' hills and gap
bridging?

As usual, you did not really read this. You were teaching something,
once upon a time ?

Pointing it out exactly, the answer appears in the second, third,
foruth and fifth words of the _LINE_ you want clarification of. Now, don't
poach any more stray ideas here. Start your own quest....

My exactly seems to have been more approximate... Sorry.
--
Bonne route !

Sandy
Vreneuil-sur-Seine FR

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 20:55:38 +0200, "Sandy"
wrote:

Dans le message de ,
Sandy a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Dans le message de ,
a réfléchi, et puis a
déclaré

On Sun, 3 Jul 2005 19:24:53 +0200, "Sandy"
wrote:

Dans le message de
, Yuri Budilov
a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré :
Remember: this years's models will be last year's models in a
month or so.

Derk

you are absolutely right, this is why there are big discounts in my
area on 2005 Madone 5.2, 5.2SL, 5.9 and 5.9SL but on Look 461/555
the discounts are really tiny, perhaps 2%-5% on frame and on Madone
it is 15-20% on 2005 stock.

I have no idea where you are, but in FR, the discounts can be
enormous, plus there are lots of closeout sales on the internet.
461's went for around 800 euros during winter, against their usual
1500 price.

LOOK is probably more strict with warranty problems, being a FR
company. But, neither the weight, not the odd-number sizes should
cause worry. Top tube sizes seem to run around 1cm change per
vertical size change. Adjust with a seatpost and stem choice.

What LOOK does demand, as I may have already written, is plain
strength to overcome short obstacles, like sprinters' hills and gap
bridging. If strength is lacking, you can expect to drop 2-3 gears
and try to keep up, but that is not the usual way to success.

Dear Sandy,

Why would a LOOK require a rider to drop 2-3 gears to try to
keep up on short obstacles like sprinters' hills and gap
bridging?

As usual, you did not really read this. You were teaching something,
once upon a time ?

Pointing it out exactly, the answer appears in the second, third,
foruth and fifth words of the _LINE_ you want clarification of. Now, don't
poach any more stray ideas here. Start your own quest....

My exactly seems to have been more approximate... Sorry.

Dear Sandy,

I was being as tactful and polite as I could.

You seem to be as incoherent as ever when asked for a
physical explanation of your strange claims.

If you're claiming that the tiny weight difference requires
you to drop 2-3 gears to keep up, then you must presumably
drop 2-3 gears on a short hill if you decide to carry an
extra bottle of water on a ride.

Of course, if you have some plausible reason, you could
always explain it instead of being silly.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Dans le message de ,
a réfléchi, et puis a déclaré
:
Dear Sandy,

I was being as tactful and polite as I could.

No one asked you to do that.

You seem to be as incoherent as ever when asked for a
physical explanation of your strange claims.

And you didn't.

If you're claiming that the tiny weight difference requires
you to drop 2-3 gears to keep up, then you must presumably
drop 2-3 gears on a short hill if you decide to carry an
extra bottle of water on a ride.

Did you read somewhere that I wrote about weight ?
More reading comprehension tutorials necessary.

Of course, if you have some plausible reason, you could
always explain it instead of being silly.

Silly is so much more fun.
Besides, those of us who actually ride bikes understand what was meant.
Plus, I don't think any explanation of what is involved in riding a bike is
going to be understood by you. Now, wasn't that a nice airing of views ?


--
Sandy
Verneuil-sur-Seine
*******

La vie, c'est comme une bicyclette,
il faut avancer pour ne pas perdre l'équilibre.
-- Einstein, A.

Sandy wrote:

Of course, if you have some plausible reason, you could
always explain it instead of being silly.

Silly is so much more fun.
Besides, those of us who actually ride bikes understand what was meant.
Plus, I don't think any explanation of what is involved in riding a bike
is going to be understood by you. Now, wasn't that a nice airing of views
I'll try to catch some sleep while you keep fighting! :-)

Greets, Derk