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The BMA Promote Safer Cycling



 
 
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  #111  
Old April 22nd 09, 09:03 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Nick L Plate
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Posts: 1,114
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

On 19 Apr, 16:58, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:07:44 +0100, Marc


If I want to know how to cycle safely, I consult a cycling coach, not a
cycle mechanic.


This is essentially what they are doing, much to the irritation of the
"cycle safety=helmets" mob.


Tell me more.
Ads
  #112  
Old April 22nd 09, 10:02 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Just zis Guy, you know?[_2_]
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Posts: 4,166
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:03:49 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate
wrote:

If I want to know how to cycle safely, I consult a cycling coach, not a
cycle mechanic.


This is essentially what they are doing, much to the irritation of the
"cycle safety=helmets" mob.


Tell me more.


The DfT cycle safety consultation being conducted by TRL.

Guy
--
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk/urc | http://www.nohelmetlaw.org.uk/

"To every complex problem there is a solution which is
simple, neat and wrong" - HL Mencken

Newsgroup may contain nuts.
  #113  
Old April 23rd 09, 12:02 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
judith smith
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Posts: 1,883
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 22:02:46 +0100, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
wrote:

On Wed, 22 Apr 2009 13:03:49 -0700 (PDT), Nick L Plate
wrote:

If I want to know how to cycle safely, I consult a cycling coach, not a
cycle mechanic.


This is essentially what they are doing, much to the irritation of the
"cycle safety=helmets" mob.


Tell me more.


The DfT cycle safety consultation being conducted by TRL.

Guy



Is that the one where you originally posted:

"As I mentioned up there a bit I am peripherally involved in a DfT
research project into cycle safety"

and then sought volunteers:

"And anybody who is good with stats and wants to volunteer ......" to
let you know


I volunteered because I thought I had useful experience (which you
were then and are not now aware of) and you vetoed my application
with no good reason.

Was that the one?


Have you seen the thread where Nuxx Bar has asked why you are so
despised by so many people?


--
I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy Chapman)
I have never said that I encourage my children to wear helmets. (Guy
Chapman)
I would challenge judith to find the place where I said I encourage
my children to wear helmets. (Guy Chapman)
I pointed out the web page
He then quickly changed the web page - but "forgot" to change the date
of last amendment so it looked like the change had been there for
years.
  #114  
Old April 23rd 09, 11:15 AM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mark[_15_]
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Posts: 164
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:46:25 -0700 (PDT), Toom Tabard
wrote:

On 20 Apr, 00:52, Peter Keller wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:07:44 +0100, Marc wrote:

At the end of the day when the government decides that "something must
be done" , whose advice will they follow - the BMA or Guy Chapman?


We're dooomed


* And again I would like to understand why anyone pays that much
attention to body technicians?
If I want to know how to cycle safely, I consult a cycling coach, not a
cycle mechanic.
If I want to know how to drive safely I consult a driving instructor,
not a panel beater.
If I want to know how to fly safely I consult a flying instructor , not
a Queen Mary driver


Why then are Doctors presumed to know something about the physics of
accidents just because they are there to glue the body back together?


Not all doctors.

* I, too, (along with our Land Transport Safety Authority) was puzzled as
to why accidents, injuries and deaths to bicyclists were not reducing as
expected after our Mandatory Bicycle Helmet law was enacted and enforced.

* To my shame I, like most of the medical profession bought into the
propaganda that helmets were a magic cure-all.

* But then I started studying the evidence.

* I would say, that if you want to know the possible effects of a helmet
law, study what happened in places which enforced one.


One has, however, to also be aware that when there seems good
empirical reason for a public health or safety initiative, its
introduction is accompanied by an initiative to collect full and
correctly classified data to measure the effect. This data is then
frequently compared to the incomplete and inaccurate data from before
the initiative and can result in considerable disparity between the
statistical result and the expected effect. That frequently masks the
close correspondence between the expected and actual effects.


Or masks the lack of correspondence between the expected and actual
effects.

The only conclusions that you can draw from your scenario is that you
cannot draw any conclusions.

--
(\__/) M.
(='.'=) Owing to the amount of spam posted via googlegroups and
(")_(") their inaction to the problem. I am blocking most articles
posted from there. If you wish your postings to be seen by
everyone you will need use a different method of posting.

  #115  
Old April 23rd 09, 01:35 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Toom Tabard
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Posts: 523
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

On 23 Apr, 11:15, Mark wrote:
On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 02:46:25 -0700 (PDT), Toom Tabard





wrote:
On 20 Apr, 00:52, Peter Keller wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 16:07:44 +0100, Marc wrote:


At the end of the day when the government decides that "something must
be done" , whose advice will they follow - the BMA or Guy Chapman?


We're dooomed


* And again I would like to understand why anyone pays that much
attention to body technicians?
If I want to know how to cycle safely, I consult a cycling coach, not a
cycle mechanic.
If I want to know how to drive safely I consult a driving instructor,
not a panel beater.
If I want to know how to fly safely I consult a flying instructor , not
a Queen Mary driver


Why then are Doctors presumed to know something about the physics of
accidents just because they are there to glue the body back together?


Not all doctors.


* I, too, (along with our Land Transport Safety Authority) was puzzled as
to why accidents, injuries and deaths to bicyclists were not reducing as
expected after our Mandatory Bicycle Helmet law was enacted and enforced.


* To my shame I, like most of the medical profession bought into the
propaganda that helmets were a magic cure-all.


* But then I started studying the evidence.


* I would say, that if you want to know the possible effects of a helmet
law, study what happened in places which enforced one.


One has, however, to also be aware that when there seems good
empirical reason for a public health or safety initiative, its
introduction is accompanied by an initiative to collect full and
correctly classified data to measure the effect. This data is then
frequently compared to the incomplete and inaccurate data from before
the initiative and can result in considerable disparity between the
statistical result and the expected effect. That frequently masks the
close correspondence between the expected and actual effects.


Or masks the lack of correspondence between the expected and actual
effects.

The only conclusions that you can draw from your scenario is that you
cannot draw any conclusions.


Not necessarily. You may not have the statistical proof, but the
empirical experience and knowledge of the practitioners in the
particular area can be strongly indicative of the true effect and
point to the flaws, and the reasons for them, in the statistical
analysis. When reality seems at variance with the numbers, it is
frequently the numbers which are flawed. There a legions of social,
health and safety studies where concentration on the numbers followng
the issues receiving concentrated attention, result in problems with
comparison with earlier data which wasn't collected under the same
spotlight, but where the empirical experience of practitioners not
involved in the statistical studies can give some, possibly the best,
evidence of the true effect.

Toom


  #116  
Old April 23rd 09, 03:48 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Mike Clark
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Posts: 220
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

In message
Toom Tabard wrote:

[snip]

Not necessarily. You may not have the statistical proof, but the
empirical experience and knowledge of the practitioners in the
particular area can be strongly indicative of the true effect and
point to the flaws, and the reasons for them, in the statistical
analysis. When reality seems at variance with the numbers, it is
frequently the numbers which are flawed. There a legions of social,
health and safety studies where concentration on the numbers followng
the issues receiving concentrated attention, result in problems with
comparison with earlier data which wasn't collected under the same
spotlight, but where the empirical experience of practitioners not
involved in the statistical studies can give some, possibly the best,
evidence of the true effect.

Toom


Presumably you can cite some specific examples to substantiate your
generalisations above?

Mike
--
M.R. Clark PhD, Reader in Therapeutic and Molecular Immunology
Cambridge University, Department of Pathology
Tennis Court Road, Cambridge CB2 1QP
Tel +44 (0)1223 333705 Web http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/
  #117  
Old April 23rd 09, 03:57 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

Mike Clark wrote:
In message
Toom Tabard wrote:

[snip]
Not necessarily. You may not have the statistical proof, but the
empirical experience and knowledge of the practitioners in the
particular area can be strongly indicative of the true effect and
point to the flaws, and the reasons for them, in the statistical
analysis. When reality seems at variance with the numbers, it is
frequently the numbers which are flawed. There a legions of social,
health and safety studies where concentration on the numbers followng
the issues receiving concentrated attention, result in problems with
comparison with earlier data which wasn't collected under the same
spotlight, but where the empirical experience of practitioners not
involved in the statistical studies can give some, possibly the best,
evidence of the true effect.


Presumably you can cite some specific examples to substantiate your
generalisations above?


Preferably that take into account the lack of proper control data in a
comparative head injury scenario, and where the practitioners have been
bombarded with years of unsubstantiated claims (the infamous 85% figure
from TRT '89 in particular) about the effectiveness of the proposed
intervention to bias their opinion.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #118  
Old April 23rd 09, 04:04 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

Peter Clinch wrote:

Preferably that take into account the lack of proper control data in a
comparative head injury scenario, and where the practitioners have been
bombarded with years of unsubstantiated claims (the infamous 85% figure
from TRT '89 in particular) about the effectiveness of the proposed
intervention to bias their opinion.


Oh, and also accounts for the fact that the practitioners will only see
the end result of the accident, and are unlikely to take any account of
the degree to which the proposed intervention may have caused it to
happen in the first place.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #119  
Old April 23rd 09, 09:29 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Alan Braggins
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Posts: 1,869
Default The BMA Recycle BeHIT Bull****

In article , Mike Clark wrote:
Toom Tabard wrote:

[snip]
Not necessarily. You may not have the statistical proof, but the
empirical experience and knowledge of the practitioners in the
particular area can be strongly indicative of the true effect and
point to the flaws, and the reasons for them, in the statistical
analysis.

[...]
Presumably you can cite some specific examples to substantiate your
generalisations above?


Presumably he can't, or he would have done so by now. It's not as if
the generalisations above add anything new....
  #120  
Old April 23rd 09, 11:38 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
judith smith
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Posts: 1,883
Default Negative impact of helmet laws

On 20 Apr 2009 22:18:19 +0100 (BST), (Alan
Braggins) wrote:

In article , Tom Crispin wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 23:09:06 +0100, Judith Smith
wrote:
On Sun, 19 Apr 2009 22:39:32 +0100, Tom Crispin
wrote:

At a whole population level, do you think that a manatory helmet law
for cyclists would have a positive or negative effect on the health of
the nation?

I think


Evidence indicates the opposite is true.


Indeed - a recent paper estimates the negative health impact of a helmet
law would cost the UK about $0.4 billion. (About 0.19 billion pounds,
it's an Australian paper.)
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.c...act_id=1368064 via
http://www.ecovelo.info/2009/04/20/m...y-helmet-laws/


I see it says:


"Generally there has been solid support for bicycle helmet laws in
Canada, Australia and New Zealand,"

Are they countries which have compulsory wearing of helmets?
--

The BMA view of helmets:

The BMA (British Medical Association) urges legislation to make the wearing of cycle helmets compulsory for both adults and children.

The evidence from those countries where compulsory cycle helmet use has already been introduced is that such legislation has a beneficial effect on cycle-related deaths and head injuries. This strongly supports the case for introducing legislation in the UK. Such legislation should result in a reduction in the morbidity and mortality associated with cycling accidents.

 




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