Economics of Custom Frame Building in non Ferrous Materials

Ryan Cousineau wrote in message ...
In article ,
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

ryan- I realize that steel frames can be made without lugs, but I was
positing
lugs as a potential "benefit" of steel. BRBR

Then you need to be clearer, instead of posting, " ryan- What's that?
The
extra weight of lugged construction? BRBR

ryan I don't think most frames succumb to corrosion, but when I hear people
extol the virtues of steel, they generally refrain from mentioning its
vices, however minor. BRBR

As do those that fail to mention the problems with other materials....like
repairability of carbon, or the soft ride of ti or the lack of durability of
aluminum.

Ryan Sheesh, it seems like I've been picking on you a lot this week. Maybe
it's time to go for a ride. BRBR

My skin is a lot thicker than that. I have been slammed by the likes of
Jobst,
after-all...

Probably because you attribute ride characteristics to Ti frames.

BTW, carbon fibre is easy to repair. Nobody likes to think about it, but
carbon fibre is fibreglass boat technology with a lighter-weight
matting. I believe the major reason nobody considers repairing carbon
fibre is because Trek's frame warranty is so good. Don't know if the
same goes for Calfee, et al.

Don't know about other carbon builders, but Calfee can and does repair
his own frames. Here's one that was repaired for $250:

http://damonrinard.com/photos/calfeedoh.jpg

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

ryan- What's that? The extra weight of lugged construction? BRBR

Why don't you read the post. Didn't mention 'lugs', you did. BTW, I have a 3.6
pound lugged steel frameset. Weigh a stadard aluminum frameset lately?? How
about the low end Seven ti??

Ryan The lack of
natural corrosion resistance? BRBR

Here we go-aluminum corrodes quite well and I have an 18 year old Ciocc w/o any
corrosion on it or in it.

ryan The general inability to build a frame as
light as other materials? BRBR

Horse****. My steel builder builds steel in the 3.2 to 3.5 pound range all the
time, just like most aluminum and mid range ti. If ya want a light frameset,
sure you can get one, for a lot more $$($2900 for a Calfee Dragonfly), or in
Ti-check out the prices of the 1 kilo ti Litespeed framesets or perhaps an
aluminum/scamdium 1 kilo framesets that are $2500 and may last one season...

COMBINATION of things that make a good frameset.

Well that depends on what the purpose is. I think for the non-racer,
steel is a very nice choice. Especially given all the perfectly good
used 5.5-6 lb steel frame/forks on the market. One should expect to pay
only $50-100 for these. I train on a 21.5 lb steel bike. But there's
no way it is going to compete when that "COMBINATION" you talk about is
slanted heavily towards weight and possibly lateral/torsional
stiffness. I have 5 steel bikes. I bought a $1900 frame/fork CF
finally because it is 3.0 lbs. A new steel frame/fork would likely
cost a similar amount and it would weigh in at about a lb more (at
least). Being able to "feel" the lb or two is irrelevent. People get
blisters because they didn't "feel" it soon enough. I can stomp on my
light CF frame in a sprint and it seems quite rigid, for whatever worth
this sort of subjectivity has. Granted, it is hard to separate what is
twisting in a sprint, but the CF bike has 225g Al handlebars. I do
wonder how a 3.2 lb steel frame would feel, all other things equal. I
don't like that twisting feeling in sprints.

Steel is still a very good material, even if it is out of favor
currently. But for racing, I think the "performance factor" gets much
more weight when your "COMBINATION" is summed up. There, the edge goes
to other materials, particularly CF. For non-racing, steel is a great
choice, and it isn't like one could not race with it. I did many flat
crits last year on my old steel 22 lb crit beast (more mass to
accelerate in sprints). For climbing events, I'll certainly go with the
lightest I can afford: steel isn't happening for that. I'm not going to
work hard driving the weight on my body down to a 21.0 BMI only to add
it back on the bike frame.


I didn't have a bell, but I did turn on my rear blinker light for the
sprint signs.

Ryan- BTW, carbon fibre is easy to repair. BRBR

Call Veltec, importer of LOOK framesets and ask about frame repair. Do the same
with Aegis..It may be easy but few do it(TREK, Calfee, Kestrel)



Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:

gwhite-

If ya want to race, get a throw away aluminum frameset, save even more wierght,
get a stiff, light racing frameset, not CF.

No thanks.

OBTW-$1900 for a steel frameset and fork is way too much...

It isn't hard to get up into the $1200-1300 range. The last bit of
margin is usually the most expensive, and this case is no different. It
ends up as a personal choice as to whether it is "worth it."

I do
wonder how a 3.2 lb steel frame would feel, all other things equal. I
don't like that twisting feeling in sprints. BRBR

On a test machine, i think it would fell a lot alike. A light steel frameset
isn't all squishy.

No point in going further with this. Measurements would sort it out.
Conceptually, CF would seem to have the advantage over steel. The issue
is probably more magnitude than anything: is it enough to care about?

But for racing, I think the "performance factor" gets much
more weight when your "COMBINATION" is summed up. BRBR

Most 'racers' are more about equipment than performance...

Many may not really know the details, but when they see the total weight
at sub 16.5 lbs,... well, that by itself is simple enough. Steel has
trouble getting there. People know it -- it is simple.

I'm not going to
work hard driving the weight on my body down to a 21.0 BMI only to add
it back on the bike frame. BRBR

\Errrrr-adding a pound on the frameset and taking off 10 off your body-not
quite the same.

Who said it was? Again, I'm not going to remove weight from my body and
needlessly add some back onto the bike. But since you seem to be
asking: how different is a pound on the body versus a pound on the bike?

In article ,
(Appkiller) wrote:

snip
BTW, carbon fibre is easy to repair. Nobody likes to think about it, but
carbon fibre is fibreglass boat technology with a lighter-weight
matting. I believe the major reason nobody considers repairing carbon
fibre is because Trek's frame warranty is so good. Don't know if the
same goes for Calfee, et al.
snip

Have you ever worked with composites? Do you have experience building
or repairing composite structures? I think not or you wouldn't spout
such inane nonsense.

Touche. I'll take your word for the details of repairing this stuff.
What I have seen is the diaries of some handbuilt carbon work (Mainly
Damon Rinard's), and he seemed pretty cavalier about post-hoc repair
work, notably to a beam-bike design where he deliberately tested the
beam to failure.

First, there would be the grinding. You couldn't just take the
damaged area out and fill like bondo as the fibers have to be
continuous for some distance to provide the strength that the tube
originally had. Discontinuity of fibers, unless engineered for, is
bad in composites. It would have to be calculated what strength was
lost and thereby, how much material needs to be re-applied and how
(fiber orientation(s), etc..) . Then, the whole deal would need to be
vacuum bagged or otherwise compressed to squeeze out the air. Then,
the now repaired but butt-ugly frame would need to sanded (be careful
not to remove any fiber or strength will be lost) and refinished.

If a lug were damaged then things would get really interesting.

I assume you mean the lug area? There are quite a few frames (Trek,
Look, etc.) that are either lugless or use metal lugs.

I would suggest that the current cost to Trek for a 5500 frame (not
including tooling and R+D costs) is less than $100. At $50 an hour
for skilled composite work (less than boat repair rate), unless you
have a tiny ding, it just ain't worth it.

Who worked for a major racing dinghy manufacturer for four years and
repaired composite sailboats for another three.

The "not worth it" is sort of my point. From what I hear, Trek has a
pretty liberal warranty policy: you can pretty much assume the frame is
covered if you didn't put it under a car or into your garage door. That
may be a combination of a tough frame and a low marginal cost for frames.

--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

ryan- I assume you mean the lug area? There are quite a few frames (Trek,
Look, etc.) that are either lugless or use metal lugs.
BRBR

Neither TREK nor most LOOKs are lug-less. OCLV are carbon lugs, AFAIK...

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

one of the six billion wrote:
"Ryan Cousineau" wrote in message
What I like best about my steel Pinarello (besides the price and the
pretty chromed chainstay) is that finishing well in my crit races
(personal-best of 5th place last time, woo hoo) makes the riders behind
me on lighter, newer bikes feel even worse.
situation. I would also not feel any worse because someone with a steel
frame was faster than me. I have an 18 lb bike, a 20 lb bike and a 22 lb
steel bike. I don't gain or lose performance on any of the bikes.

But the people finishing behind Mr. Cousineau think you do, and that's why
it bugs them.

Of course they are probably quite careful to avoid blind tests.
--
David Damerell Distortion Field!

Benjamin Weiner wrote:
There are smaller builders who build in aluminum and titanium,
but not as many. BTW, 30 years ago my guess is that the US
was only partway into its framebuilding renaissance; the UK
was probably different.

It's not clear to me that small framebuilders ever really went away here.
--
David Damerell Distortion Field!

In article ,
(Qui si parla Campagnolo) wrote:

ryan- I assume you mean the lug area? There are quite a few frames (Trek,
Look, etc.) that are either lugless or use metal lugs.
BRBR

Neither TREK nor most LOOKs are lug-less. OCLV are carbon lugs, AFAIK...

Bother. Right after I said this, I found a video showing the manufacture
of carbon OCLV lugs on Trek's site.

Not getting much right this week, but thinking I should buy a cheap
steel frame for my next race bike,
--
Ryan Cousineau, http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine
President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

ryan- Not getting much right this week, but thinking I should buy a cheap
steel frame for my next race bike, BRBR

if I was gonna race again(and I'm not), i would have Mark Nolilette make me a
steel frameset, use a carbon fork, a mix of Campagnolo Record, Veloce and
Mirage and go race-

Mirage levers(converted to 10s), Mirage ders, Veloce brakes, Record
crank/BB/hubset/cogset.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"