#11
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visibility of DRL
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote:
From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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#12
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visibility of DRL
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. -- Jay Beattie. |
#13
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visibility of DRL
jbeattie writes:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 7:55:50 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/3/2019 9:58 PM, David Scheidt wrote: David Scheidt wrote: :From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running :lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the :time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found :myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed :by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the :bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over :several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's :more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before :dark, and overcast November day. :https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p And one that will make Frank happy: https://goo.gl/maps/S1QRDrdpBhz I used your Street Views to track you along the street for quite a while. Looks to me like in most photos, the light is visible only as a white dot. (I suspect the photos where it looks brighter happened to capture a moment when your handlebars twitched a big more toward the Google car.) Overall, I doubt very much that it will make any more difference than, say, if you painted a white circle on the middle of your chest. Which is not to say your light - or a white circle - has zero value in daylight. There's data out there showing that motorcyclists who choose white helmets get hit a bit less than motorcyclists who choose dark helmets. However, that doesn't justify forcing all motorcyclists to wear only white hats. Some here will say that the problem is your Busch & Mueller headlight, which is designed for lighting the road but not glaring in the eyes of other road users. They have called for super-bright lights with unsophisticated round beams, the kind that can irritate or even blind others. A couple weeks ago, my wife and I were on vacation in a city south of here. On a riverside bike path at night, we were assaulted by one of those glaring beams used by a rider coming the opposite direction. We had to stop by the side of the bike path and shield our eyes until he rode by. But I'm sure he felt very virtuous as well as safe. We were passed by only one other cyclist. She had no lights at all. So much for the Golden Mean. I just yell at them -- like some psychotic homeless guy. I don't care. There is no excuse for a 1,000 lumen light with no cut-off in a side-by-side bike facility. Helmet lights are the worst. They're right at eye level, and even a 300-500 lumen light can be blinding. But when you yell at them, they just look at you, melting your eyeballs. With daylight savings, a little one-watt flasher is sufficient, and is what I use when riding home in overcast or gloom. -- Jay Beattie. -- |
#14
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visibility of DRL
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away. What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top? https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2 -- - Frank Krygowski |
#15
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visibility of DRL
On 2019-04-04 12:15, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. Next to the red car behind it, less visible: https://goo.gl/maps/dNQBiRm4z672 I am not talking about you or me seeing him. I am talking about the slightly soused dude who is keeping an eye on his smart phone. Point is, bright yet non-blinding LED lighting is so easy and cheap these days that I see no reason not to take advantage of it. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#16
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visibility of DRL
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 2:35:52 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away. What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top? https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2 The commuter scrum: https://bikeportland.org/2016/05/04/...o-essay-182506 Imagine if all those people had eye-popping, retina burning flashers and headlights. And why do you need mega-light DRLs anyway? The vaunted Odense study proved that a tiny, induction powered front light prevented bicycle accidents -- even one-bike accidents, which is pretty amazing. http://www.eltis.org/discover/case-s...odense-denmark https://www.reelight.com/collections...s/products/cph I'm fine with safety equipment that isn't annoying or unsafe. I'm not going to prescribe for others. Get your vest and flippy flag, clog the facility riding 8mph, but don't f****** blind me with your mega-light DRL! Consider this my very brief manifesto. Violators will be insulted with grammatically complex, late Victorian put-downs provided by Andre Jute. -- Jay Beattie. |
#17
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visibility of DRL
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 11:07:35 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/4/2019 10:09 AM, sms wrote: Studies show the benefit of DRLs on bicycles, but it doesn't make any difference to those that don't believe in scientific studies. The study that's most often cited by Daytime Running Light fans did, indeed, purport to show that the lights caused fewer crashes. The assumption, of course, is that because the cyclists were more visible, cars and pedestrians avoided them more often. But that study was funded by the company that manufactured the lights and gave them away to the subjects of the study. It would be hard to dream up a more biased way of conducting a study. And indeed, the study's data tables showed that those using the lights suffered far fewer _solo_ crashes. Those are crashes where the cyclist simply falls on his own, perhaps running into a curb, losing balance when starting out, slipping on wet leaves, etc. It's proof of bias built into the study. But to a person like "sms" (AKA Stephen M. Scharf) those fine points don't matter. Any study that confirms his prejudices is just fine, no matter how badly it's done. And his main prejudice is that bicycling is terribly dangerous! SO terribly dangerous that one must always use lights front and back that blind others, and one must never ride without a funny plastic hat, and cities must build cattle chutes to hind cyclists behind parked cars, and you really ought to have a flippy flag sticking out sideways from your bike, and you're foolish if you ride without a loud electric horn on your bike... Given that bicycles, in all states I believe, are deemed to be vehicles that have a legal right to use the public roads and highways why shouldn't they be equipped as other vehicles are? After all, if vehicle "A" must be equipped with a horn, stop lights, turn lights, etc, why shouldn't vehicle "B" be equally as well equipped? -- cheers, John B. |
#18
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visibility of DRL
On Thu, 4 Apr 2019 10:55:46 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 4/3/2019 9:58 PM, David Scheidt wrote: David Scheidt wrote: :From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running :lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the :time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found :myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed :by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the :bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over :several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's :more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before :dark, and overcast November day. :https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p And one that will make Frank happy: https://goo.gl/maps/S1QRDrdpBhz I used your Street Views to track you along the street for quite a while. Looks to me like in most photos, the light is visible only as a white dot. (I suspect the photos where it looks brighter happened to capture a moment when your handlebars twitched a big more toward the Google car.) Overall, I doubt very much that it will make any more difference than, say, if you painted a white circle on the middle of your chest. Which is not to say your light - or a white circle - has zero value in daylight. There's data out there showing that motorcyclists who choose white helmets get hit a bit less than motorcyclists who choose dark helmets. However, that doesn't justify forcing all motorcyclists to wear only white hats. Some here will say that the problem is your Busch & Mueller headlight, which is designed for lighting the road but not glaring in the eyes of other road users. They have called for super-bright lights with unsophisticated round beams, the kind that can irritate or even blind others. I've read you and others going on about lights that blind oncoming riders but frankly I don't see how that happens if the light is aimed to illuminate the road. I use a regular single cell (3.7 VDC) flashlight with the normal "unsophisticated" round beam and if I aim it to illuminate the road it does not shine in the eyes of oncoming riders, in fact after reading your various posts about blinding lights I tested my lights. I tested this, in full darkness, by parking the bike and walking a distance in front of the bike and then turning and walking back toward the bike. If the flashlight is aimed to illuminate the road it doesn't shine in my eyes. At other times I have observed where the light shines on autos that I overtake in traffic and the beam seems to hit a car at about the level of the tail lights. Thus it would appear that blinding bicycle lights are simply aimed to shine in approaching traffic's eyes. I might point out also that a normal bicyclist's eyes are at a height above the roof level of the average modern automobile. This is not to say that it can't happen rather that it appears to be just one of the usual short comings of the bicyclist. A couple weeks ago, my wife and I were on vacation in a city south of here. On a riverside bike path at night, we were assaulted by one of those glaring beams used by a rider coming the opposite direction. We had to stop by the side of the bike path and shield our eyes until he rode by. But I'm sure he felt very virtuous as well as safe. We were passed by only one other cyclist. She had no lights at all. So much for the Golden Mean. -- cheers, John B. |
#19
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visibility of DRL
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away. What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top? https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2 Are you advocating installing an entire box of 25 per bicycle, or was that just the first product that came up when you Googled "bicycle safety flag"? :-) |
#20
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visibility of DRL
On 4/4/2019 7:43 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote: On 4/4/2019 3:15 PM, jbeattie wrote: On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:15:40 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote: On 2019-04-03 18:56, David Scheidt wrote: From time to time, we have discussed the visibility of daytime running lights. I commute on a bike with B&M Cyo, which I leave on all the time, because I can't tell the difference if it's on or off. I found myself on google street view on my ride home last fall. I got passed by the car, and then passed it, and got passed again. So I, and the bike, are in a bunch of pictures, from the front and behind, over several blocks. This one gives a good view of the headlight. It's more visible than I'd have expected. This was about an hour before dark, and overcast November day. https://goo.gl/maps/NQURJ9dps3p Not bad, for a StVZO light. However, I went virtually behind you in the street view and it seems you need a better rear light. And as a male toddler I wouldn't want to be seen sitting in that rose-colored baby seat :-) Really? https://tinyurl.com/y5v8pva3 He's more visible than the gray Hyundai ahead of him. I would have absolutely no problem seeing him if I were in a car or on a bike. For some "Danger! Danger!" people, it's not enough to be clearly visible. They're not satisfied unless they are absolutely the most noticeable people on the street, visible from a mile away. What's next? Several of these per bike, with lights fastened to the top? https://www.amazon.com/Safety-Flags-...=fsclp_pl_dp_2 Are you advocating installing an entire box of 25 per bicycle, or was that just the first product that came up when you Googled "bicycle safety flag"? :-) Oh, a mere dozen would never be safe enough! ;-) -- - Frank Krygowski |
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