#31
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On Jul 15, 10:01*am, "Ronsonic" wrote:
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message ... On Jul 14, 7:48 am, SMS wrote: On 7/12/2011 5:08 PM, James wrote: This is a shame since if he could be educated to direct his efforts against the trail users that cause the most damage he would give up on mountain bikes and concentrate on equestrians. The trail users who cause the most damage, BY FAR, are mountain bikers. They travel much farther & faster than anyone else. What makes you think that "farther & faster" equals more damaging. Farther and faster means more efficient, less weight and less impact. BS. If you do X damage in one mile, then you do 10X damage in 10 miles. Did you flunk grade school math? Where you startled by a rude cyclist out on a trail and this is what it's all about? It's all explained on my website. Do your homework. ALL mountain biking is rude, whether it's in my presence or not. |
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#32
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On Jul 15, 10:03*am, "Ronsonic" wrote:
"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message ... On Jul 14, 1:02 pm, Peter Cole wrote: You obviously haven't studied the SCIENCE (REAL science, not the JUNK science created by mountain bikers). The SCIENCE shows that mountain bikers have greater impacts on erosion, plants, and animals, partly because they generally travel several times as FAR and as FAST as other trail users, multiplying their impacts. (Seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/scb7.htm.) Besides that, horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have the right to go wherever they want to. BIKES, on the other hand, and inanimate OBJECTS, and have no rights whatsoever. And there is no right to mountain bike (seehttp://mjvande/nfshost.com/mtb10.htm). Horses were EXTINCT in North America and every single one of them is foreign. Can't you read? "horses evolved in North America, and hence arguably have the right to go wherever they want to". Did you flunk grade school English, as well? I agree with you on a philosophic basis, bikes are indeed inanimate and if I ever see one out on a trail on its own, I'll order it off the trail. There is no right to bring a bike onto a trail. |
#33
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On Jul 15, 10:14*am, "Ronsonic" wrote:
"SMS" wrote in message ... On 7/14/2011 4:18 PM, Chalo wrote: And for every one of us in this discussion who has the integrity of the natural environment at heart, there are probably a crowd of folks whose idea of outdoors adventure involves gratuitously murdering wild animals for entertainment, or making a huge amount of motor noise and pollution. What's funny-sad is that MV probably does have the integrity of the natural environment at heart, but he lacks the knowledge and personal integrity to make a difference for it. This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to chainsaws. BS. 99% of our parks have no pigs, but lots of erosion-causing mountain bikers. You are grasping at straws. |
#34
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"Mike Vandeman" wrote in message ... On Jul 15, 10:14 am, "Ronsonic" wrote: "SMS" wrote in message ... On 7/14/2011 4:18 PM, Chalo wrote: And for every one of us in this discussion who has the integrity of the natural environment at heart, there are probably a crowd of folks whose idea of outdoors adventure involves gratuitously murdering wild animals for entertainment, or making a huge amount of motor noise and pollution. What's funny-sad is that MV probably does have the integrity of the natural environment at heart, but he lacks the knowledge and personal integrity to make a difference for it. This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to chainsaws. BS. 99% of our parks have no pigs, but lots of erosion-causing mountain bikers. You are grasping at straws. I'm not grasping at a damn thing. Your parks might be another matter. We have a pig problem. |
#35
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On 7/15/2011 10:14 AM, Ronsonic wrote:
This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to chainsaws. Well in many states, including California, they definitely have problems with horses. It's not just the enormous trail damage (it's estimated that one horse does more damage than 50 mountain bikes or 50 hikers), but the mess, the smell, and the pollution. If we could buy each equestrian a mountain bike to ride our parks would be much better off. The problem with MV is that he hasn't studied any science because he knows that the actual science totally contradicts his position. It's called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (argument from ignorance). Every study shows that the impact of mountain bikers on erosion, plants, and wildlife is less than or equal to the damage of hikers, and far less than the damage of horses. Mountain bikers move through an area quickly, minimizing the time that they are disrupting wildlife, compared to hikers. Here's a similar example: today we were kayaking in Elkhorn Slough near Monterey. One of the volunteer docents that travels around by kayak asked us to move more quickly through an area with sea otters (we were stopped watching them). She said that to minimize the disruption to their activities it's better to go through the area quickly. This is the same thing that mountain bikers do. |
#36
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On Jul 16, 11:35*pm, SMS wrote:
On 7/15/2011 10:14 AM, Ronsonic wrote: This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to chainsaws. Well in many states, including California, they definitely have problems with horses. It's not just the enormous trail damage (it's estimated that one horse does more damage than 50 mountain bikes or 50 hikers), but the mess, the smell, and the pollution. If we could buy each equestrian a mountain bike to ride our parks would be much better off. The problem with MV is that he hasn't studied any science because he knows that the actual science totally contradicts his position. It's called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (argument from ignorance). Every study shows that the impact of mountain bikers on erosion, plants, and wildlife is less than or equal to the damage of hikers, and far less than the damage of horses. Mountain bikers move through an area quickly, minimizing the time that they are disrupting wildlife, compared to hikers. Here's a similar example: today we were kayaking in Elkhorn Slough near Monterey. One of the volunteer docents that travels around by kayak asked us to move more quickly through an area with sea otters (we were stopped watching them). She said that to minimize the disruption to their activities it's better to go through the area quickly. This is the same thing that mountain bikers do. If you knew ANYTHING about the research, you would know that NOT ONE study addresses moving quickly. You are bluffing. The Wisdom et al study proved that mountain bikers have more impact on elk than either hikers or equestrians. Moving quickly didn't help them one bit. Like ALL mountain bikers, you don't know what you are talking about, and substitute LIES instead. No surprize there! |
#37
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Mike Vandeman wrote:
SMS wrote: Ronsonic wrote: This whole conversation is absolutely bizarre to this Floridian. Here the greatest threat to our wildlands and their flora and fauna are wild / feral pigs. You can use an army of motorcycles to drive entire herds of horses each dragging a mountain bike through our forests and marshes and it wouldn't cause the damage these hogs do. Seriously. This is paper cuts to chainsaws. Well in many states, including California, they definitely have problems with horses. It's not just the enormous trail damage (it's estimated that one horse does more damage than 50 mountain bikes or 50 hikers), but the mess, the smell, and the pollution. If we could buy each equestrian a mountain bike to ride our parks would be much better off. The problem with MV is that he hasn't studied any science because he knows that the actual science totally contradicts his position. It's called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (argument from ignorance). Every study shows that the impact of mountain bikers on erosion, plants, and wildlife is less than or equal to the damage of hikers, and far less than the damage of horses. Mountain bikers move through an area quickly, minimizing the time that they are disrupting wildlife, compared to hikers. Here's a similar example: today we were kayaking in Elkhorn Slough near Monterey. One of the volunteer docents that travels around by kayak asked us to move more quickly through an area with sea otters (we were stopped watching them). She said that to minimize the disruption to their activities it's better to go through the area quickly. This is the same thing that mountain bikers do. If you knew ANYTHING about the research, you would know that NOT ONE study addresses moving quickly. You are bluffing. The Wisdom et al study proved that mountain bikers have more impact on elk than either hikers or equestrians. Moving quickly didn't help them one bit. Like ALL mountain bikers, you don't know what you are talking about, and substitute LIES instead. No surprize there! Crazy mother****er, Have you not had your fill of the troubles your craziness causes you? Why don't you leave this stuff to people who can think and act clearly and responsibly? Go do the things that give you joy, and leave quarreling about things to people who can be trusted to observe the rules of social interaction. Having a crackpot stalker in our group is no fun to us, but it's surely even less fun to the crackpot. Win the game. Go commune with nature, instead of hassling other more level-headed folks about it. Find your favorite quiet spot and take some mindful deep breaths. Go out and see if you can't feel the life force in a Genista and try to make contact with it instead of trying to destroy it. Then try to see that all things can find a rapport with the wilderness within their own ability to grasp and appreciate it. Not your ability, but theirs. As long as their ways comply with common ethical and legal rules, you are no more correct than they are in the ways you commune with nature. Have your own way, and leave others to have theirs. Chalo |
#38
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On 7/17/2011 3:09 AM, Çhâlõ Çólîñã wrote:
Mike Vandeman wrote: SMS wrote: Well in many states, including California, they definitely have problems with horses. It's not just the enormous trail damage (it's estimated that one horse does more damage than 50 mountain bikes or 50 hikers), but the mess, the smell, and the pollution. If we could buy each equestrian a mountain bike to ride our parks would be much better off. Not to mention that the mountain bikers are getting to the trail heads in vehicles that typically achieve 20 to 30+ mpg, while a truck or oversize SUV with a gas motor hauling a horse trailer will usually be in the 6 to 9 mpg range. The problem with MV is that he hasn't studied any science because he knows that the actual science totally contradicts his position. It's called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (argument from ignorance). Scary that Vandeman makes Scharf look like a fountain of knowledge and reason. Every study shows that the impact of mountain bikers on erosion, plants, and wildlife is less than or equal to the damage of hikers, and far less than the damage of horses. Mountain bikers move through an area quickly, minimizing the time that they are disrupting wildlife, compared to hikers. Here's a similar example: today we were kayaking in Elkhorn Slough near Monterey. One of the volunteer docents that travels around by kayak asked us to move more quickly through an area with sea otters (we were stopped watching them). She said that to minimize the disruption to their activities it's better to go through the area quickly. This is the same thing that mountain bikers do. If you knew ANYTHING about the research, you would know that NOT ONE study addresses moving quickly. You are bluffing. The Wisdom et al study proved that mountain bikers have more impact on elk than either hikers or equestrians. Moving quickly didn't help them one bit. Like ALL mountain bikers, you don't know what you are talking about, and substitute LIES instead. No surprize there! Yawn Crazy mother****er, Have you not had your fill of the troubles your craziness causes you? Why don't you leave this stuff to people who can think and act clearly and responsibly? Go do the things that give you joy, and leave quarreling about things to people who can be trusted to observe the rules of social interaction. Maybe this *is* what gives Vandeman joy? Having a crackpot stalker in our group is no fun to us, but it's surely even less fun to the crackpot. Win the game. Go commune with nature, instead of hassling other more level-headed folks about it. Find your favorite quiet spot and take some mindful deep breaths. Go out and see if you can't feel the life force in a Genista and try to make contact with it instead of trying to destroy it. Then try to see that all things can find a rapport with the wilderness within their own ability to grasp and appreciate it. Not your ability, but theirs. As long as their ways comply with common ethical and legal rules, you are no more correct than they are in the ways you commune with nature. Have your own way, and leave others to have theirs. I think Mikey V. cares more about spoiling mountain biking than preserving nature. -- Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W I am a vehicular cyclist. |
#39
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On 7/17/2011 1:09 AM, Chalo wrote:
snip As long as their ways comply with common ethical and legal rules, you are no more correct than they are in the ways you commune with nature. Have your own way, and leave others to have theirs. Well stated. If you believe the rules are wrong, or are not being enforced, work for changes, don't take the law into your own hands and physically attack anyone. I expect that jail was not a pleasant experience. The rules about access are not always logical and sometimes should be changed. I.e., both hikers and mountain bikers would like to see greatly reduced access for equestrians, but the equestrians are generally well-connected and wealthy, and get their way. The big expansion of mountain biking should take place in national parks outside the heavily used core area. Let's get kids out from in front of the video games and out on mountain bikes. Not only will it get them some exercise, it builds a future constituency for the national parks. Since all the experts agree that mountain bicycling is no more damaging to trails or wildlife than hiking, there is no reason to have such limits on mountain biking in national parks. |
#40
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On Jul 17, 9:53*am, SMS wrote:
snipity Since all the experts agree that mountain bicycling is no more damaging to trails or wildlife than hiking, there is no reason to have such limits on mountain biking in national parks. "Experts" other than Mikey, you mean? |
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