Good quality bikes

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:32:08 PM UTC+2, Joerg wrote:

My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor manufacturer
used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688


I rode one of those once. The first impression was 'that is not too bad' but after a while you noticed that is not as efficient as a chain or in my case a Rohloff hub. But for short ride is was OK-ish.

Lou

On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:14:06 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:12:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 5/31/21 4:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2021 12:45:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 5/25/21 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
The Airborne looks like it will be about a half lb less weight than the Trek Emonda in the same size. One might suppose that the Trek might be more Aero but like the Airborne, it has large diameter tubes that had no attempt at being aero in design. Also one would have to question whether small diameter round steel tubes are less aero than the much larger diameter of, say, the Pinarello frameset. I can't say that I ever noticed any difference between the late Basso Loto I had and the Trek Madone which was supposedly quite aero.

Of course I'm not a pro rider and I very seldom even approach the speeds that the pros commonly get in the peloton.

But isn't that the entire point of Aero? To give you that very small gain when you ride at those sorts of speeds all day long? You sure as hell aren't going to put out these sorts of power and my entire reason for posting this is to tell you that you sure as hell aren't going to gain enough to even consider spending large amounts of money on a fantasy bike to make it worth your while.

Another point - Components are now more expensive than good frames. But China is invading that space as well. You can get a Sensah 11 speed group complete for $200. They have been working their way up from not very reliable and seem to have now hit a high enough reliability standard that I will give them a test. The failure points seem to be the levers on the previous versions but that supposedly has been reengineered to be reliable. And if it weren't so you could always buy SRAM levers which have the same pull ratio and we know that those levers are reliable. And you would still save a pile of money. I'll see after I get rid of all of my extraneous bikes.


I wish bikes would achieve at least the quality of a cheap car. But they
don't and that includes expensive stuff. Every few hundred miles
something needs maintenance, wears out of needs service. Our cars go
tens of thousands of miles without a lick of trouble, all they needs is
an oil change every 4000-5000mi.

Yesterday the MicroShift derailer on the road bike began biting the
dust. The freehub is announcing its demise as well. Same for the bottom
bracket which began noise messaging, again. For both I bought the most
expensive ones from Shimano that I could find and that would fit. Not
going to do that again.

And don't get me started on tires. Hurumph, grumble.

Well, this has been discussed before buy I would suggest (again) that
if you are willing to pay as much for a bicycle as you do for your
auto then it is highly likely that you will be able to get one that
will last practically for ever.

But you are the guy that brags about using the cheapest tires that you
can get, aren't you?

No, I buy cheap tires because with lots of bike stuff you simply do not
get what you pay for. I found out that $15 road bike tires do not last
any less on average than $50 ones. Same on the MTB. I had really
expensive tires on the rear. Lasted 800mi. Now I use $20 tires and they
last ... 800mi. Then the tread is gone.

My SUV tires cost me $80 and they last well over 50,000mi even when
often schlepping half a ton of firewood across rutty dirt roads. Now
that's what I call a good price/performance ratio.

All I am asking for is, for example, this: Offer a derailer that has
ball bearings in the linkages, a really strong cage and then charge 2x
the usual price for it. Not 10x. To heck with the extra 200 grams, offer
people some reasonable choice. There are a lot of people who aren't
weight weenies but they simply want to arrive on time. Just like they
can with their cars.

I am aware there are things such as Rohloff hubs. However, I have known
people who have crunched those or had other issues with them such as
erratic shifting and gears not holding. That simply does not happen on a
car. When I inquired about the cost that took the cake. They wanted
$1500 just for the hub. Plus tax. Plus shifter. Plus cable. Plus labor.
Crazy.
Crazy to you but not to all the people on expedition bikes headed to Tierra Del Fuego, which is considerably more difficult than riding a '70s Euro sport bike around the roads and trails in Cameron Park. http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Th...loff_LoRes.pdf BTW, I know people (me) who have had issues with car transmissions, so I'm not surprised that some number of purchasers had issues with their Rohloff hubs -- or any other product for that matter. Every product has a failure rate.

I'm not a Rohloff fan because they're too expensive for my needs, but you apparently need a bomb-proof road bike. Get ready to pay and quit moaning about how a 3,000 pound car is more durable.

Other cheaper options include six speed and a triple and friction shift. I don't think there was an STI/Ergo 6speed system, so you're stuck with friction -- maybe some bar-ends. You can use old Deore derailleurs, which are the true survivor cockroaches of derailleurs.

-- Jay Beattie.


I think people here can't help Joerg. We tried though. What was it? Light, durable and cheap? You can choose 2 out of 3. In Joerg's case it has to be durable and cheap. That is a problem so far.

Lou

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 15:58:08 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
[...]
My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor
manufacturer used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough
to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US. -- Regards, Joerg

I'm confident AGCO is totally eager to set up a production line in
California once Jorge points them to the right sturdy components!

A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better
efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course,
it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference
was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a
shaft drive and a [Rohloff 14] speed.

Adding a shaft drive and keeping the sturdy Pinion-P1.12, Jorge could push
this Ti bike to beyond 15 kilos:
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/viral-skeptic-review/

92% would be perfectly fine with me. Just the absence of chain
maintenance would be worth it.

But you can buy a shaft drive bicycle. See:
http://www.webbicycle.com/bikes/cruz3.php

You forgot to rename this thread, "Crap bikes they could not sell in China"

This one is even cheaper, and the fork is easier to sort for recycling:
http://www.webbicycle.com/bikes/newport.php

These people have the nerve to depict a Rohloff when describing a 7sp
shimano. Makes one wonder what else is a scam. But yes, Jorge definitely
deserves to ride that 3sp to Newport Beach. Someone there will take it of
his hands, for a tenner.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 3:00:56 a.m. UTC-4, wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 9:14:06 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 11:12:31 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 5/31/21 4:13 PM, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 May 2021 12:45:24 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 5/25/21 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
The Airborne looks like it will be about a half lb less weight than the Trek Emonda in the same size. One might suppose that the Trek might be more Aero but like the Airborne, it has large diameter tubes that had no attempt at being aero in design. Also one would have to question whether small diameter round steel tubes are less aero than the much larger diameter of, say, the Pinarello frameset. I can't say that I ever noticed any difference between the late Basso Loto I had and the Trek Madone which was supposedly quite aero.

Of course I'm not a pro rider and I very seldom even approach the speeds that the pros commonly get in the peloton.

But isn't that the entire point of Aero? To give you that very small gain when you ride at those sorts of speeds all day long? You sure as hell aren't going to put out these sorts of power and my entire reason for posting this is to tell you that you sure as hell aren't going to gain enough to even consider spending large amounts of money on a fantasy bike to make it worth your while.

Another point - Components are now more expensive than good frames. But China is invading that space as well. You can get a Sensah 11 speed group complete for $200. They have been working their way up from not very reliable and seem to have now hit a high enough reliability standard that I will give them a test. The failure points seem to be the levers on the previous versions but that supposedly has been reengineered to be reliable. And if it weren't so you could always buy SRAM levers which have the same pull ratio and we know that those levers are reliable. And you would still save a pile of money. I'll see after I get rid of all of my extraneous bikes.


I wish bikes would achieve at least the quality of a cheap car. But they
don't and that includes expensive stuff. Every few hundred miles
something needs maintenance, wears out of needs service. Our cars go
tens of thousands of miles without a lick of trouble, all they needs is
an oil change every 4000-5000mi.

Yesterday the MicroShift derailer on the road bike began biting the
dust. The freehub is announcing its demise as well. Same for the bottom
bracket which began noise messaging, again. For both I bought the most
expensive ones from Shimano that I could find and that would fit. Not
going to do that again.

And don't get me started on tires. Hurumph, grumble.

Well, this has been discussed before buy I would suggest (again) that
if you are willing to pay as much for a bicycle as you do for your
auto then it is highly likely that you will be able to get one that
will last practically for ever.

But you are the guy that brags about using the cheapest tires that you
can get, aren't you?

No, I buy cheap tires because with lots of bike stuff you simply do not
get what you pay for. I found out that $15 road bike tires do not last
any less on average than $50 ones. Same on the MTB. I had really
expensive tires on the rear. Lasted 800mi. Now I use $20 tires and they
last ... 800mi. Then the tread is gone.

My SUV tires cost me $80 and they last well over 50,000mi even when
often schlepping half a ton of firewood across rutty dirt roads. Now
that's what I call a good price/performance ratio.

All I am asking for is, for example, this: Offer a derailer that has
ball bearings in the linkages, a really strong cage and then charge 2x
the usual price for it. Not 10x. To heck with the extra 200 grams, offer
people some reasonable choice. There are a lot of people who aren't
weight weenies but they simply want to arrive on time. Just like they
can with their cars.

I am aware there are things such as Rohloff hubs. However, I have known
people who have crunched those or had other issues with them such as
erratic shifting and gears not holding. That simply does not happen on a
car. When I inquired about the cost that took the cake. They wanted
$1500 just for the hub. Plus tax. Plus shifter. Plus cable. Plus labor.
Crazy.
Crazy to you but not to all the people on expedition bikes headed to Tierra Del Fuego, which is considerably more difficult than riding a '70s Euro sport bike around the roads and trails in Cameron Park. http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Th...loff_LoRes.pdf BTW, I know people (me) who have had issues with car transmissions, so I'm not surprised that some number of purchasers had issues with their Rohloff hubs -- or any other product for that matter. Every product has a failure rate.

I'm not a Rohloff fan because they're too expensive for my needs, but you apparently need a bomb-proof road bike. Get ready to pay and quit moaning about how a 3,000 pound car is more durable.

Other cheaper options include six speed and a triple and friction shift.. I don't think there was an STI/Ergo 6speed system, so you're stuck with friction -- maybe some bar-ends. You can use old Deore derailleurs, which are the true survivor cockroaches of derailleurs.

-- Jay Beattie.
I think people here can't help Joerg. We tried though. What was it? Light, durable and cheap? You can choose 2 out of 3. In Joerg's case it has to be durable and cheap. That is a problem so far.

Lou

If Joerg were to cut a car tire in half and also cut a bicycle tire in half he'd notice a major difference in thickness of tread and sidewalls. I keep telling him to get a dirt motorcycle, remove the engine and put a crankset and chain on it if he want's automobile/motorcycle longevity . LOL VBEG

Cheers

On 6/2/2021 4:10 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 15:58:08 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
[...]
My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor
manufacturer used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough
to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US. -- Regards, Joerg

I'm confident AGCO is totally eager to set up a production line in
California once Jorge points them to the right sturdy components!

A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better
efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course,
it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference
was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a
shaft drive and a [Rohloff 14] speed.

Adding a shaft drive and keeping the sturdy Pinion-P1.12, Jorge could push
this Ti bike to beyond 15 kilos:
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/viral-skeptic-review/

From that site: "a rear derailleur will always be one of the most
damage-prone and vulnerable parts on a modern mountain bike. Aside from
spokes and the chain, it’s the most susceptible to mud, dirt and debris.
Let’s face it, it’s a fragile mechanical device that’s essentially
hanging off the side of your bike ready to be ripped off at will by the
next rock or tree branch on the trail."

Two thoughts: I've seen derailleur guards on kids bikes, loops of 1/4"
steel rod intended to reduce that problem.

But there were also a couple (rare) designs of derailleurs that mounted
under the chainstay and forward of the rear axle. Those seem like they'd
be much more protected.

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...leur_S120.html

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...erailleur.html

I gather this is based on a Nivex derailleur from the 1930s.

ISTM this scheme could reduce or eliminate derailleur damage, and
require far less modification than a shaft drive.

By the time SunTour made this derailleur, its company was crushed by
Shimano, so it never went anywhere in the marketplace.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 1:10:33 AM UTC-7, Sepp Ruf wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 15:58:08 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
[...]
My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor
manufacturer used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough
to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US. -- Regards, Joerg
I'm confident AGCO is totally eager to set up a production line in
California once Jorge points them to the right sturdy components!
A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better
efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course,
it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference
was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a
shaft drive and a [Rohloff 14] speed.

Adding a shaft drive and keeping the sturdy Pinion-P1.12, Jorge could push
this Ti bike to beyond 15 kilos:
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/viral-skeptic-review/
92% would be perfectly fine with me. Just the absence of chain
maintenance would be worth it.

But you can buy a shaft drive bicycle. See:
http://www.webbicycle.com/bikes/cruz3.php
You forgot to rename this thread, "Crap bikes they could not sell in China"

This one is even cheaper, and the fork is easier to sort for recycling:
http://www.webbicycle.com/bikes/newport.php

These people have the nerve to depict a Rohloff when describing a 7sp
shimano. Makes one wonder what else is a scam. But yes, Jorge definitely
deserves to ride that 3sp to Newport Beach. Someone there will take it of
his hands, for a tenner.
It seems pretty clear to me that this is the future of the sports bike industry. It is heavier than a shimano or other set-up but the trade-off is almost no maintenance and the only problems you will run across is flats. Since overall it only ads some 1.3 lbs and you end up with a stronger rear wheel it seems like a very good tradeoff.

I've been saying that I liked the old 8 speeds because the gears had significant changes in ratio unlike am 11 speed that has tiny changes in the entire upper end of the cogs that are of use only to professional racers who might hit 70KPH with a tailing wind or a slight downhill near the sprint finish. These are literally useless to the sport rider and he wastes a lot of time shifting up and down. I also have this problem with my 10 speeds.

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 7:59:35 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/2/2021 4:10 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 15:58:08 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
[...]
My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor
manufacturer used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough
to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US. -- Regards, Joerg

I'm confident AGCO is totally eager to set up a production line in
California once Jorge points them to the right sturdy components!

A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better
efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course,
it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference
was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a
shaft drive and a [Rohloff 14] speed.

Adding a shaft drive and keeping the sturdy Pinion-P1.12, Jorge could push
this Ti bike to beyond 15 kilos:
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/viral-skeptic-review/
From that site: "a rear derailleur will always be one of the most
damage-prone and vulnerable parts on a modern mountain bike. Aside from
spokes and the chain, it’s the most susceptible to mud, dirt and debris.
Let’s face it, it’s a fragile mechanical device that’s essentially
hanging off the side of your bike ready to be ripped off at will by the
next rock or tree branch on the trail."

Two thoughts: I've seen derailleur guards on kids bikes, loops of 1/4"
steel rod intended to reduce that problem.

But there were also a couple (rare) designs of derailleurs that mounted
under the chainstay and forward of the rear axle. Those seem like they'd
be much more protected.

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...leur_S120.html

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...erailleur.html

I gather this is based on a Nivex derailleur from the 1930s.

ISTM this scheme could reduce or eliminate derailleur damage, and
require far less modification than a shaft drive.

By the time SunTour made this derailleur, its company was crushed by
Shimano, so it never went anywhere in the marketplace.

BTW, the Portland Biketown Bikes were shaft drive -- now replaced by chain drive ebikes. They weighed 60 pounds and were dogs. Joerg could probably get one of the old bikes free with phone call. https://bikeportland.org/2020/08/04/...n-bikes-318974

And note that Joerg was complaining about his road bike, which is a late 70s/early 80s (IIRC) mid-fi Euro sport racing bike lucky to fit 28mm tires. It is a collection of kludged freewheels, derailleurs, etc. and should be relegated to a thrift shop. He apparently rides it like a mountain bike or at least a gravel bike. One would expect it to get wrecked. It is the wrong bike for the job -- but Joerg wants to complaint that it is not as durable as a car.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 6/1/21 5:25 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 11:12:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


[...]

No, I buy cheap tires because with lots of bike stuff you simply do
not get what you pay for. I found out that $15 road bike tires do
not last any less on average than $50 ones. Same on the MTB. I had
really expensive tires on the rear. Lasted 800mi. Now I use $20
tires and they last ... 800mi. Then the tread is gone.


Yes, but it is possible to make a bicycle tire that would last your
quoted 50,000 miles. Of course it will, like the auto tire, be
substantially heavier and thicker then the more up-market bike tires
and a cursory check of prices indicate that they will be in the $200
- $300 or higher , range.


So why can Michelin make them for cars for $80?


In fact there was a guy that used to post here that was making
tires. You could try and contact him to see whether you could have
custom tires with (I estimate) about 5/8" thick tread and perhaps
1/4" sidewalls.


Well, obviously I don't want to pay hundreds for a custom solution.


My SUV tires cost me $80 and they last well over 50,000mi even
when often schlepping half a ton of firewood across rutty dirt
roads. Now that's what I call a good price/performance ratio.

$1.60 that I believe I mentioned I had seen the tires that you
advocate on sale here for... lets see, that would be 80/1.60 = 50 X
800 = 40,000 miles... It sounds like you are getting your money's
worth.

Of course, if you are naive to pay $20 for a $1.60 item then there
is no help for you.


It's simple. You have to live with whatever prices are demanded where
you live. Give us an example here where we can order a Vittoria Zaffiro
for $1.60. Or as the Romans used to say, hic Rhodus, hic salta :-)

Besides, you can never get Continental Gatorskins for that price and
even those don't last. I tried four in a row and the results were poor.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 8:25:39 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, June 2, 2021 at 7:59:35 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/2/2021 4:10 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 15:58:08 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 6/1/21 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
[...]
My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor
manufacturer used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough
to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US. -- Regards, Joerg

I'm confident AGCO is totally eager to set up a production line in
California once Jorge points them to the right sturdy components!

A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better
efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course,
it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference
was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a
shaft drive and a [Rohloff 14] speed.

Adding a shaft drive and keeping the sturdy Pinion-P1.12, Jorge could push
this Ti bike to beyond 15 kilos:
https://bikepacking.com/bikes/viral-skeptic-review/
From that site: "a rear derailleur will always be one of the most
damage-prone and vulnerable parts on a modern mountain bike. Aside from
spokes and the chain, it’s the most susceptible to mud, dirt and debris.
Let’s face it, it’s a fragile mechanical device that’s essentially
hanging off the side of your bike ready to be ripped off at will by the
next rock or tree branch on the trail."

Two thoughts: I've seen derailleur guards on kids bikes, loops of 1/4"
steel rod intended to reduce that problem.

But there were also a couple (rare) designs of derailleurs that mounted
under the chainstay and forward of the rear axle. Those seem like they'd
be much more protected.

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...leur_S120.html

http://www.disraeligears.co.uk/Site/...erailleur.html

I gather this is based on a Nivex derailleur from the 1930s.

ISTM this scheme could reduce or eliminate derailleur damage, and
require far less modification than a shaft drive.

By the time SunTour made this derailleur, its company was crushed by
Shimano, so it never went anywhere in the marketplace.
BTW, the Portland Biketown Bikes were shaft drive -- now replaced by chain drive ebikes. They weighed 60 pounds and were dogs. Joerg could probably get one of the old bikes free with phone call. https://bikeportland.org/2020/08/04/...n-bikes-318974

And note that Joerg was complaining about his road bike, which is a late 70s/early 80s (IIRC) mid-fi Euro sport racing bike lucky to fit 28mm tires. It is a collection of kludged freewheels, derailleurs, etc. and should be relegated to a thrift shop. He apparently rides it like a mountain bike or at least a gravel bike. One would expect it to get wrecked. It is the wrong bike for the job -- but Joerg wants to complaint that it is not as durable as a car.

-- Jay Beattie.
Come on Jay, you know that public rental bikes are designed and built to be unbreakable.

On 6/1/21 5:54 PM, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 1 Jun 2021 15:58:08 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 6/1/21 3:46 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, June 1, 2021 at 12:32:08 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

[...]


My dream would be a shaft-driven bike. A German tractor manufacturer
used to build them but they don't look sturdy enough to me:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/94791513@N04/14033652688

Anyhow, can't get those in the US.
--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
A clean chain and cogset through a derailleur is about 98% or better efficient. That shaft drive bike was something like 92%. Of course, it was 92% almost until the gears were worn out. But the difference was substantial. That is why we don't see shaft drives. Imagine a shaft drive and a Rolhoff 12 speed.


92% would be perfectly fine with me. Just the absence of chain
maintenance would be worth it.

But you can buy a shaft drive bicycle. See:
http://www.webbicycle.com/bikes/cruz3.php
http://doingdesmoines.com/2015/08/03...s-bike-photos/


Thanks, didn't know those. The first one is probably too cheap to be
durable but the 2nd looks good, despite having an aluminum frame (I
prefer steel).

It would be a good one to recommend to people who don't have a bike yet
and (like me) do not like maintenance. Usually most of the complaints I
hear are "the chain squeals" and "it doesn't shift right anymore". Then
they stop riding. "Oh, I'll have that fixed ... one of these days" and
then those days never come.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/