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  #11  
Old June 15th 11, 09:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
N8N
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Posts: 836
Default Singapore Bikes

On Jun 15, 4:20*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jun 15, 3:33*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Jun 15, 8:58*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:


On Jun 14, 8:05*pm, john B. wrote:


The interesting thing is that there are no bike lanes and no special
rules for bikes. Bicycles seem to be treated as just another highway
user. You see them peddling along the side of the road, stopping for
stop lights and hardly ever on the sidewalks as bicycles and
motorcycles are forbidden to ride on sidewalks which are reserved for
foot traffic.


The idea that somehow you are different because you ride a bicycle to
work that I've noticed on various groups doesn't seem to exist and a
bicycle is viewed as just another variety of transportation.


By the way, no lycra, no foam hats, no half gloves. Just normal
attire.


In other words, Singapore proves that a city can have lots of
bicycling without weird multicolored bike lanes, barrier separated
"bike tracks," special traffic lights, etc.


And people can ride bicycles and feel adequately safe without weird
plastic hats and day-glo clothing.


Can someone please let the American "bike advocates" know? *Start with
Andy Clarke, John Pucher and Mia Birk.


(Of course, telling them to abandon fear mongering would be like like
telling them to abandon their life's work.)


Well, then there is Holland with separate bicycle facilities. *If you
believe that is the proper model, then current efforts in the USA are
woefully inadequate. We should be condemning rights of way to put in
extensive bicycle avenues -- maybe through your living room.


Of course, I don't think we need such things. *Or rather, we need them
only in a few unusual places.

In general, I'm pretty fond of the system of bike facilities we
already have. *They call them "roads" and they already go everywhere a
person is likely to want to go!


Eh, shoulders would be nice. For both cyclists and motorists. Far
too many "only way to get there from here" roads have paved/rideable
areas to the right of the white line only inches wide.

Aside from cyclist concerns, a flat tire or breakdown in a motor
vehicle can seriously fornicate traffic on such a road.

nate
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  #12  
Old June 15th 11, 10:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tºm Shermªn °_°
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Posts: 413
Default Singapore Bikes

On 6/15/2011 6:24 AM, john B. wrote:
On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 19:28:52 -0500, T�m Sherm�n �_�
" wrote:

On 6/14/2011 7:05 PM, john B. wrote:
[...]
The above is the norm during the week but on the weekend the
recreational riders appear, booted and spurred, they are very
noticeable on the more open highways and in certain areas of the
island where there are specified MTB tracks. The idea of "ride
anywhere" mountain bikes is abhorrent to the Singapore government and
there are serious fines imposed for riding in unspecified areas.


Better just a fine than being attacked by a handsaw wielding wacko nut.



It is fine to joke but the Singapore government takes its laws
seriously. $500 fine for spitting on the street, probably a thousand
for riding in a park.

No joke:
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2010/06/03/bicycle-opponent-arrested-for-assaulting-cyclist/.

Well know rec.bicycles.soc and alt.mountain-bike troll Mikey V. was
acquitted on two charges, hung jury on one charge, and convicted on
three charges stemming from the handsaw assault incident.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #13  
Old June 15th 11, 10:42 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tºm Shermªn °_°
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Posts: 413
Default Singapore Bikes

On 6/15/2011 3:20 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jun 15, 3:33�pm, Jay wrote:
On Jun 15, 8:58�am, Frank wrote:



On Jun 14, 8:05�pm, john wrote:


The interesting thing is that there are no bike lanes and no special
rules for bikes. Bicycles seem to be treated as just another highway
user. You see them peddling along the side of the road, stopping for
stop lights and hardly ever on the sidewalks as bicycles and
motorcycles are forbidden to ride on sidewalks which are reserved for
foot traffic.


The idea that somehow you are different because you ride a bicycle to
work that I've noticed on various groups doesn't seem to exist and a
bicycle is viewed as just another variety of transportation.


By the way, no lycra, no foam hats, no half gloves. Just normal
attire.


In other words, Singapore proves that a city can have lots of
bicycling without weird multicolored bike lanes, barrier separated
"bike tracks," special traffic lights, etc.


And people can ride bicycles and feel adequately safe without weird
plastic hats and day-glo clothing.


Can someone please let the American "bike advocates" know? �Start with
Andy Clarke, John Pucher and Mia Birk.


(Of course, telling them to abandon fear mongering would be like like
telling them to abandon their life's work.)


Well, then there is Holland with separate bicycle facilities. �If you
believe that is the proper model, then current efforts in the USA are
woefully inadequate. We should be condemning rights of way to put in
extensive bicycle avenues -- maybe through your living room.


Of course, I don't think we need such things. Or rather, we need them
only in a few unusual places.[...]


Indeed. The primary places special separated bicycle lanes are needed
are bridges on controlled access roads where there is not a nearby
bridge that is bicycle accessible.

--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
  #14  
Old June 15th 11, 11:26 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jay Beattie
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Posts: 4,322
Default Singapore Bikes

On Jun 15, 1:20*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jun 15, 3:33*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:





On Jun 15, 8:58*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:


On Jun 14, 8:05*pm, john B. wrote:


The interesting thing is that there are no bike lanes and no special
rules for bikes. Bicycles seem to be treated as just another highway
user. You see them peddling along the side of the road, stopping for
stop lights and hardly ever on the sidewalks as bicycles and
motorcycles are forbidden to ride on sidewalks which are reserved for
foot traffic.


The idea that somehow you are different because you ride a bicycle to
work that I've noticed on various groups doesn't seem to exist and a
bicycle is viewed as just another variety of transportation.


By the way, no lycra, no foam hats, no half gloves. Just normal
attire.


In other words, Singapore proves that a city can have lots of
bicycling without weird multicolored bike lanes, barrier separated
"bike tracks," special traffic lights, etc.


And people can ride bicycles and feel adequately safe without weird
plastic hats and day-glo clothing.


Can someone please let the American "bike advocates" know? *Start with
Andy Clarke, John Pucher and Mia Birk.


(Of course, telling them to abandon fear mongering would be like like
telling them to abandon their life's work.)


Well, then there is Holland with separate bicycle facilities. *If you
believe that is the proper model, then current efforts in the USA are
woefully inadequate. We should be condemning rights of way to put in
extensive bicycle avenues -- maybe through your living room.


Of course, I don't think we need such things. *Or rather, we need them
only in a few unusual places.


Like he http://highlandpark.wordpress.com/20...rnia-cycleway/
I want a board track cycleway -- ride silks to work and do impromptu
Madisons with the Bohemian fixie commuters. Not much fun in the rain
or snow, though.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #15  
Old June 16th 11, 01:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
john B.
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Posts: 2,603
Default Singapore Bikes

On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 08:58:10 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Jun 14, 8:05*pm, john B. wrote:


The interesting thing is that there are no bike lanes and no special
rules for bikes. Bicycles seem to be treated as just another highway
user. You see them peddling along the side of the road, stopping for
stop lights and hardly ever on the sidewalks as bicycles and
motorcycles are forbidden to ride on sidewalks which are reserved for
foot traffic.

The idea that somehow you are different because you ride a bicycle to
work that I've noticed on various groups doesn't seem to exist and a
bicycle is viewed as just another variety of transportation.

By the way, no lycra, no foam hats, no half gloves. Just normal
attire.


In other words, Singapore proves that a city can have lots of
bicycling without weird multicolored bike lanes, barrier separated
"bike tracks," special traffic lights, etc.

And people can ride bicycles and feel adequately safe without weird
plastic hats and day-glo clothing.

Can someone please let the American "bike advocates" know? Start with
Andy Clarke, John Pucher and Mia Birk.

(Of course, telling them to abandon fear mongering would be like like
telling them to abandon their life's work.)

- Frank Krygowski


Well, not really. Recently there has been a spat of complaints about
bicycle riders. Generally for such things as running red lights,
riding in the middle of the lane (on highways with plenty of room on
the sides) and other sins. The bicyclists on the other hand argue that
there is no "culture of cycling" in Singapore so no one knows how
bicycles act (I might comment that, say 40 years ago, very few
Singaporeans owned automobiles). The usual "I'm right and everyone
else is wrong" attitude.

But no helmet laws, and probably because there are so few accidents no
hair raising stories in the newspaper about the horrifying death of a
bicyclist.
  #16  
Old June 16th 11, 02:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
john B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,603
Default Singapore Bikes

On Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:20:41 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Jun 15, 3:33*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jun 15, 8:58*am, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Jun 14, 8:05*pm, john B. wrote:


The interesting thing is that there are no bike lanes and no special
rules for bikes. Bicycles seem to be treated as just another highway
user. You see them peddling along the side of the road, stopping for
stop lights and hardly ever on the sidewalks as bicycles and
motorcycles are forbidden to ride on sidewalks which are reserved for
foot traffic.


The idea that somehow you are different because you ride a bicycle to
work that I've noticed on various groups doesn't seem to exist and a
bicycle is viewed as just another variety of transportation.


By the way, no lycra, no foam hats, no half gloves. Just normal
attire.


In other words, Singapore proves that a city can have lots of
bicycling without weird multicolored bike lanes, barrier separated
"bike tracks," special traffic lights, etc.


And people can ride bicycles and feel adequately safe without weird
plastic hats and day-glo clothing.


Can someone please let the American "bike advocates" know? *Start with
Andy Clarke, John Pucher and Mia Birk.


(Of course, telling them to abandon fear mongering would be like like
telling them to abandon their life's work.)


Well, then there is Holland with separate bicycle facilities. *If you
believe that is the proper model, then current efforts in the USA are
woefully inadequate. We should be condemning rights of way to put in
extensive bicycle avenues -- maybe through your living room.


Of course, I don't think we need such things. Or rather, we need them
only in a few unusual places.

In general, I'm pretty fond of the system of bike facilities we
already have. They call them "roads" and they already go everywhere a
person is likely to want to go!

- Frank Krygowski


In Thailand the bicycle is considered, by law, to be one step above a
pedestrian and has no special rights at all. Just as the pedestrian
they are allowed to use the highways but with the caveat that they
have a very low priority. In fact there is a law that bicycles and
motorcycles are to ride on the side of the road; signs every couple of
kilometers on all highways.

There is another idiosyncrasy here, the larger vehicle is deemed to be
guilty, until proven innocent. If a bicycle hits a pedestrian the
bicycle is deemed wrong; an automobile hits a bicycle, the auto is
wrong, and so on. The burden of proof is on the larger vehicle to
prove that he/she/it was not guilty.

Of course, if the bicycle hits a larger vehicle while it is stationary
the moving vehicle (bicycle) is at fault. Getting "doored" is the
bicycle's fault and thus it is a rather uncommon accident here.
  #17  
Old June 16th 11, 04:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Posts: 6,153
Default Singapore Bikes

john B. wrote:

Of course, if the bicycle hits a larger vehicle while it is stationary
the moving vehicle (bicycle) is at fault. Getting "doored" is the
bicycle's fault and thus it is a rather uncommon accident here.


Even if the larger vehicle failed to give way?

If the larger vehicle pull out of a side road in front of a bicycle and
stopped before the bicycle collided with the vehicle, who is at fault?

--
JS.
  #18  
Old June 16th 11, 12:27 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
john B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,603
Default Singapore Bikes

On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:02:34 +1000, James
wrote:

john B. wrote:

Of course, if the bicycle hits a larger vehicle while it is stationary
the moving vehicle (bicycle) is at fault. Getting "doored" is the
bicycle's fault and thus it is a rather uncommon accident here.


Even if the larger vehicle failed to give way?

If the larger vehicle pull out of a side road in front of a bicycle and
stopped before the bicycle collided with the vehicle, who is at fault?


I don't know. Initially the larger vehicle is deemed to be wrong but
in the case where the vehicle is stationary, as you describe, I
suspect that the bicycle would be found at fault after an
investigation.

I can't give any reference for that scenario other then that my wife
rear-ending another auto driving down the out ramp in a parking garage
because he braked suddenly. The police weren't called as it happened
on private property but the insurance investigator reckoned that it
was my wife's insurance that paid.

  #19  
Old June 16th 11, 10:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,153
Default Singapore Bikes

On 16/06/2011 9:27 PM, john B. wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:02:34 +1000,
wrote:

john B. wrote:

Of course, if the bicycle hits a larger vehicle while it is stationary
the moving vehicle (bicycle) is at fault. Getting "doored" is the
bicycle's fault and thus it is a rather uncommon accident here.


Even if the larger vehicle failed to give way?

If the larger vehicle pull out of a side road in front of a bicycle and
stopped before the bicycle collided with the vehicle, who is at fault?


I don't know. Initially the larger vehicle is deemed to be wrong but
in the case where the vehicle is stationary, as you describe, I
suspect that the bicycle would be found at fault after an
investigation.

I can't give any reference for that scenario other then that my wife
rear-ending another auto driving down the out ramp in a parking garage
because he braked suddenly. The police weren't called as it happened
on private property but the insurance investigator reckoned that it
was my wife's insurance that paid.


Yeah, that's common here too. If you rear end someone, it's almost
always your fault. That's not the scenario I meant though. I've had
drivers fail to give way and stop at the last moment. Thankfully I've
made it around them, but I watched a friend T-bone a car that did just
that. He had his right knee cap surgically removed as a result. I
can't see that it is satisfactory to rule that the larger, stationary
vehicle is not to blame when clearly failing to give way to through traffic.

--
JS.
  #20  
Old June 17th 11, 12:58 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
john B.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,603
Default Singapore Bikes

On Fri, 17 Jun 2011 07:48:13 +1000, James
wrote:

On 16/06/2011 9:27 PM, john B. wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:02:34 +1000,
wrote:

john B. wrote:

Of course, if the bicycle hits a larger vehicle while it is stationary
the moving vehicle (bicycle) is at fault. Getting "doored" is the
bicycle's fault and thus it is a rather uncommon accident here.

Even if the larger vehicle failed to give way?

If the larger vehicle pull out of a side road in front of a bicycle and
stopped before the bicycle collided with the vehicle, who is at fault?


I don't know. Initially the larger vehicle is deemed to be wrong but
in the case where the vehicle is stationary, as you describe, I
suspect that the bicycle would be found at fault after an
investigation.

I can't give any reference for that scenario other then that my wife
rear-ending another auto driving down the out ramp in a parking garage
because he braked suddenly. The police weren't called as it happened
on private property but the insurance investigator reckoned that it
was my wife's insurance that paid.


Yeah, that's common here too. If you rear end someone, it's almost
always your fault. That's not the scenario I meant though. I've had
drivers fail to give way and stop at the last moment. Thankfully I've
made it around them, but I watched a friend T-bone a car that did just
that. He had his right knee cap surgically removed as a result. I
can't see that it is satisfactory to rule that the larger, stationary
vehicle is not to blame when clearly failing to give way to through traffic.


I cannot visualize the conditions that you are describing, but it is
really not a matter of describing the traffic laws as "satisfactory"
or "un-satisfactory", they just are. The individual can only obey or
not obey. Rather like the bloke who kills someone and then says that
he considers the law, that is going to hang him, to be unsatisfactory.

But as I said, the law here classifies a bicycle as one step up from a
pedestrian. If you walked into the side of a truck would it be the
truck's fault?

 




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