Brakes

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On 12/13/2015 10:16 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered Sun, 13 Dec
2015 16:42:19 -0000 the perfect time to write:


I'd been running a motorcycle with a pretty worn engine on Halfords
cheap
own brand motor oil for a couple of years - one day I went for more oil
and
they had Castrol cheaper on special offer. the main bearings failed less
than 500 miles on from putting that oil in!

Sadly, not an unusual tale.
More modern oils are usually lower in viscousity (because it improves
efficiency) and older engines tend to have bearing clearances too
large to sustain oil pressure with these better quality (but thinner)
oils. Older engines were built at a time when ordinary production
processes just weren't up to building bearings with close enough
tolerances for the more modern oils, even before they were well worn.

I wonder if the cheap Halfords stuff was non-detergent, and the Castrol
was detergent?

I've heard rumors that non-detergent would leave significant deposits at
certain points inside an engine, and that subsequent use of detergent oil
could send those lumps circulating, to where they would block oil
passages. However, I have no direct experience with that.

The oil system was pretty basic on that engine, and fairly robust.

It has a wire gauze strainer at the sump pick up and a centrifugal fine
particle filter.

The only crap I found in the lubrication system was bits of main bearing.

"Clive George" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 14/12/2015 05:04, David Scheidt wrote:

Maybe not in backwaters like the UK, but in the civilized world, engine
oils in the old fashioned viscosities are widely available in
formulations with modern additive packages.

Is it still common practice on your side of the pond to change car oil
every 3000 miles?

The manual for my motorcycle said every 1500 miles - AFAIK: its about 10x
that for most cars.

Most cars don't share the sump oil with the gear box.

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On 12/13/2015 6:11 PM, John B. wrote:

Years ago I worked at a division of the Indonesian National Oil
company where oil testing was performed. They had consultants from the
French National Laboratories to train their people and the process is
quite interesting - they actually run small one cylinder engines at a
constant temperature and load for weeks, with a specific oil, then
disassemble them and measure wear, amount of deposits, etc.

I asked the "Oil People" about what oil to use in our company cars and
they suggested the Indonesian oil as it was cheaper.... but change it
frequently :-)

A while back, one of the Magliozzi brothers (of Car Talk fame) had begun a
one-person test, resolving to never change the oil in one of his cars. He
said he'd just add fresh oil as needed.

When I'm running a knackered motorcycle, I do that routinely.

But that's only when it gets to the stage of burning oil so fast I have to
top it up more than once a month.

On 12/14/2015 12:28 PM, Ian Field wrote:


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On 12/13/2015 10:16 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered
Sun, 13 Dec
2015 16:42:19 -0000 the perfect time to write:


I'd been running a motorcycle with a pretty worn engine
on Halfords cheap
own brand motor oil for a couple of years - one day I
went for more oil and
they had Castrol cheaper on special offer. the main
bearings failed less
than 500 miles on from putting that oil in!

Sadly, not an unusual tale.
More modern oils are usually lower in viscousity (because
it improves
efficiency) and older engines tend to have bearing
clearances too
large to sustain oil pressure with these better quality
(but thinner)
oils. Older engines were built at a time when ordinary
production
processes just weren't up to building bearings with close
enough
tolerances for the more modern oils, even before they
were well worn.

I wonder if the cheap Halfords stuff was non-detergent,
and the Castrol was detergent?

I've heard rumors that non-detergent would leave
significant deposits at certain points inside an engine,
and that subsequent use of detergent oil could send those
lumps circulating, to where they would block oil
passages. However, I have no direct experience with that.

The oil system was pretty basic on that engine, and fairly
robust.

It has a wire gauze strainer at the sump pick up and a
centrifugal fine particle filter.

The only crap I found in the lubrication system was bits of
main bearing.

A white paste or actual chunks?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"AMuzi" wrote in message
...
On 12/14/2015 12:28 PM, Ian Field wrote:


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On 12/13/2015 10:16 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered
Sun, 13 Dec
2015 16:42:19 -0000 the perfect time to write:


I'd been running a motorcycle with a pretty worn engine
on Halfords cheap
own brand motor oil for a couple of years - one day I
went for more oil and
they had Castrol cheaper on special offer. the main
bearings failed less
than 500 miles on from putting that oil in!

Sadly, not an unusual tale.
More modern oils are usually lower in viscousity (because
it improves
efficiency) and older engines tend to have bearing
clearances too
large to sustain oil pressure with these better quality
(but thinner)
oils. Older engines were built at a time when ordinary
production
processes just weren't up to building bearings with close
enough
tolerances for the more modern oils, even before they
were well worn.

I wonder if the cheap Halfords stuff was non-detergent,
and the Castrol was detergent?

I've heard rumors that non-detergent would leave
significant deposits at certain points inside an engine,
and that subsequent use of detergent oil could send those
lumps circulating, to where they would block oil
passages. However, I have no direct experience with that.

The oil system was pretty basic on that engine, and fairly
robust.

It has a wire gauze strainer at the sump pick up and a
centrifugal fine particle filter.

The only crap I found in the lubrication system was bits of
main bearing.

A white paste or actual chunks?

Actual chunks of hardened steel.

The small to medium size motorcycles don't have white metal bearings.

This one had a large regular cartridge bearing one side, the other side was
a roller bearing with a phosphor bronze cage.

The wire strainer caught the chunks, the fine particles ended up in the
centrifugal filter.

"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
...
"Ian Field" considered Mon, 14 Dec
2015 20:35:08 -0000 the perfect time to write:



"AMuzi" wrote in message
...
On 12/14/2015 12:28 PM, Ian Field wrote:


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On 12/13/2015 10:16 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered
Sun, 13 Dec
2015 16:42:19 -0000 the perfect time to write:


I'd been running a motorcycle with a pretty worn engine
on Halfords cheap
own brand motor oil for a couple of years - one day I
went for more oil and
they had Castrol cheaper on special offer. the main
bearings failed less
than 500 miles on from putting that oil in!

Sadly, not an unusual tale.
More modern oils are usually lower in viscousity (because
it improves
efficiency) and older engines tend to have bearing
clearances too
large to sustain oil pressure with these better quality
(but thinner)
oils. Older engines were built at a time when ordinary
production
processes just weren't up to building bearings with close
enough
tolerances for the more modern oils, even before they
were well worn.

I wonder if the cheap Halfords stuff was non-detergent,
and the Castrol was detergent?

I've heard rumors that non-detergent would leave
significant deposits at certain points inside an engine,
and that subsequent use of detergent oil could send those
lumps circulating, to where they would block oil
passages. However, I have no direct experience with that.

The oil system was pretty basic on that engine, and fairly
robust.

It has a wire gauze strainer at the sump pick up and a
centrifugal fine particle filter.

The only crap I found in the lubrication system was bits of
main bearing.

A white paste or actual chunks?

Actual chunks of hardened steel.

The small to medium size motorcycles don't have white metal bearings.

That depends on the small to medium sized motorcycle in question.
Anything with a forged crankshaft and more than one cyclinder will use
a plain bearing design, because you can't slide roller bearings onto
anywhere but the ends.

This one had a large regular cartridge bearing one side, the other side
was
a roller bearing with a phosphor bronze cage.

Well, that rules out oil pressure being the problem then, as roller
bearings do not rely on pressure in the way that plain bearings do.
Just having some oil present (i.e. not running dry) is enough for
them.

The wire strainer caught the chunks, the fine particles ended up in the
centrifugal filter.

Probably just coincidence on the timing of the failure then.

Like James Bond said - once is chance, twice is coincidence and three times
is enemy action.

I seem to have more "coincidences" with Castrol than any other brand -
including cheap own brand.

The engine was a bit rattly when I bought the bike, that's why I didn't
waste expensive oil on it. My expectation was maybe 6 months to a year, it
lasted nearly three on cheap own brand oil - then I put Castrol in it!

"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
...
"Ian Field" considered Wed, 16 Dec
2015 18:34:55 -0000 the perfect time to write:



"Phil W Lee" wrote in message
. ..
"Ian Field" considered Mon, 14 Dec
2015 20:35:08 -0000 the perfect time to write:



"AMuzi" wrote in message
...
On 12/14/2015 12:28 PM, Ian Field wrote:


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On 12/13/2015 10:16 PM, Phil W Lee wrote:
"Ian Field" considered
Sun, 13 Dec
2015 16:42:19 -0000 the perfect time to write:


I'd been running a motorcycle with a pretty worn engine
on Halfords cheap
own brand motor oil for a couple of years - one day I
went for more oil and
they had Castrol cheaper on special offer. the main
bearings failed less
than 500 miles on from putting that oil in!

Sadly, not an unusual tale.
More modern oils are usually lower in viscousity (because
it improves
efficiency) and older engines tend to have bearing
clearances too
large to sustain oil pressure with these better quality
(but thinner)
oils. Older engines were built at a time when ordinary
production
processes just weren't up to building bearings with close
enough
tolerances for the more modern oils, even before they
were well worn.

I wonder if the cheap Halfords stuff was non-detergent,
and the Castrol was detergent?

I've heard rumors that non-detergent would leave
significant deposits at certain points inside an engine,
and that subsequent use of detergent oil could send those
lumps circulating, to where they would block oil
passages. However, I have no direct experience with that.

The oil system was pretty basic on that engine, and fairly
robust.

It has a wire gauze strainer at the sump pick up and a
centrifugal fine particle filter.

The only crap I found in the lubrication system was bits of
main bearing.

A white paste or actual chunks?

Actual chunks of hardened steel.

The small to medium size motorcycles don't have white metal bearings.

That depends on the small to medium sized motorcycle in question.
Anything with a forged crankshaft and more than one cyclinder will use
a plain bearing design, because you can't slide roller bearings onto
anywhere but the ends.

This one had a large regular cartridge bearing one side, the other side
was
a roller bearing with a phosphor bronze cage.

Well, that rules out oil pressure being the problem then, as roller
bearings do not rely on pressure in the way that plain bearings do.
Just having some oil present (i.e. not running dry) is enough for
them.

The wire strainer caught the chunks, the fine particles ended up in the
centrifugal filter.

Probably just coincidence on the timing of the failure then.

Like James Bond said - once is chance, twice is coincidence and three
times
is enemy action.

I seem to have more "coincidences" with Castrol than any other brand -
including cheap own brand.

The engine was a bit rattly when I bought the bike, that's why I didn't
waste expensive oil on it. My expectation was maybe 6 months to a year, it
lasted nearly three on cheap own brand oil - then I put Castrol in it!

It's possible that the friction reducers added to more modern oils
(like the Castrol you mention) allowed the rollers/balls to slide
around in their races instead of rolling,

Yeah right.................................I've taken to using the cheapest
(even supermarket) own brand oil, with plenty of both PTFE and molybdenum
friction modifiers. With no evidence of any such problem.