Alexa says, 'Take the lane'

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph..

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

There is a certain amount of self-delusion believing that one can control traffic.

For example, there is a descending, hard-right turn on one of my ways home out of town. It's a blind turn, and if you go wide, you can get whacked by the cars coming around the corner from the other direction. Anyway, I take the whole lane setting up for the turn -- I practically get on the center-line so I can swoop hard right. I was doing that the other night, knowing that a car was approaching from the rear. I get practically on the center-line, probably going 25-30mph setting up for the swoop to the right. I look back, and this car is behind me trying to get around -- on a blind turn in the oncoming lane. WTF? If I had gone any more to the left, it probably would have tried to pass me on the right. Nothing happened because I was carrying more speed through the turn than the car, and I think the driver finally decided that accelerating around a bike on a blind turn was a bad idea. As punishment though, I took the lane on the other side of the turn and took my time getting to the next turn to the left.

On the next left -- down this little chute of a road -- I actually did have a lady pass me one evening in a Suburban, while on the cell phone in the middle of the turn while I was in the middle of the road. She basically pushed me over. It was f****** incredible. I was yelling and screaming and beating on her front-right quarter panel -- to no avail. Now not taking the lane would have been wrong in those situations, but some cars you can herd and some you can't. You take the lane, and some cars cross the double yellow, squeeze by you within an inch or two and play chicken with on-coming traffic. It is truly amazing -- and don't get me going about the buses.


-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 4:14:15 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

There is a certain amount of self-delusion believing that one can control traffic.

For example, there is a descending, hard-right turn on one of my ways home out of town. It's a blind turn, and if you go wide, you can get whacked by the cars coming around the corner from the other direction. Anyway, I take the whole lane setting up for the turn -- I practically get on the center-line so I can swoop hard right. I was doing that the other night, knowing that a car was approaching from the rear. I get practically on the center-line, probably going 25-30mph setting up for the swoop to the right. I look back, and this car is behind me trying to get around -- on a blind turn in the oncoming lane. WTF? If I had gone any more to the left, it probably would have tried to pass me on the right. Nothing happened because I was carrying more speed through the turn than the car, and I think the driver finally decided that accelerating around a bike on a blind turn was a bad idea. As punishment though, I took the lane on the other side of the turn and took my time getting to the next turn to the left.

On the next left -- down this little chute of a road -- I actually did have a lady pass me one evening in a Suburban, while on the cell phone in the middle of the turn while I was in the middle of the road. She basically pushed me over. It was f****** incredible. I was yelling and screaming and beating on her front-right quarter panel -- to no avail. Now not taking the lane would have been wrong in those situations, but some cars you can herd and some you can't. You take the lane, and some cars cross the double yellow, squeeze by you within an inch or two and play chicken with on-coming traffic. It is truly amazing -- and don't get me going about the buses.

I was on a hot 40 miler today and almost the same thing happened to me. There is a hard right turn with undergrowth on the right cliff-side and cars coming the other way cut the corner so as a bike I'm always careful to cross the apex exactly on. This is a slight downhill and I get up to about 22 through the corner. Some ass tried to pass me before the turn and then passed across a double yellow with poor forward vision after we cleared the turn.

There was road work ahead and the flagman said - "I'll send the bike first" I thanked him and cleared through as fast as possible while three cars were let through before her. Revenge is sweet.

On 8/31/2017 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

Like many vehicular cycling skeptics, you're pretending that vehicular
cyclists say things they never say. You're constructing straw men to
argue against, as a way to pretend to yourself that you've won some
argument.

Of course there are roads that are better and roads that are worse. Some
are far worse. I've never said a cyclist can comfortably ride absolutely
everywhere. I don't know a single cyclist that has said that, and I've
met and corresponded with the most prominent people who have developed
and taught vehicular cycling techniques.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/31/2017 7:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.


There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.


There is a certain amount of self-delusion believing that one can control traffic.

For example, there is a descending, hard-right turn on one of my ways home out of town. It's a blind turn, and if you go wide, you can get whacked by the cars coming around the corner from the other direction. Anyway, I take the whole lane setting up for the turn -- I practically get on the center-line so I can swoop hard right. I was doing that the other night, knowing that a car was approaching from the rear. I get practically on the center-line, probably going 25-30mph setting up for the swoop to the right. I look back, and this car is behind me trying to get around -- on a blind turn in the oncoming lane. WTF? If I had gone any more to the left, it probably would have tried to pass me on the right. Nothing happened because I was carrying more speed through the turn than the car, and I think the driver finally decided that accelerating around a bike on a blind turn was a bad idea. As punishment though, I took the lane on the other side of the turn and took my time getting to the next turn to the left.

On the next left -- down this little chute of a road -- I actually did have a lady pass me one evening in a Suburban, while on the cell phone in the middle of the turn while I was in the middle of the road. She basically pushed me over. It was f****** incredible. I was yelling and screaming and beating on her front-right quarter panel -- to no avail. Now not taking the lane would have been wrong in those situations, but some cars you can herd and some you can't. You take the lane, and some cars cross the double yellow, squeeze by you within an inch or two and play chicken with on-coming traffic. It is truly amazing -- and don't get me going about the buses.


Or to put it much more briefly: No technique is perfect. That's true of
every human activity on earth.

But on the road you describe, is it usually better to ride near lane
center? Or is it usually better to hug the gutter as close as you can?

Most American cyclists tend to hug the gutter or road edge no matter
what. That's true even of avid racers who put in many thousands of
training miles each year. (I've had them brag about how riding inches
from the road edge and not flinching at the resulting close passes is a
sign of great bike handling.)

In my experience and the experience of most people who learn these
things, riding more leftward when circumstances (and the laws) make it
reasonable results in fewer close passes, and results in most motorists
passing only when its safe to do so.

Yes, there are idiot motorists who pass anyway, sometimes risking
head-on collisions with other motorists. In that situation, riding more
leftward gives more escape room to the right.

I don't know a sensible argument for always riding at the extreme edge
of the road. Most (like Joerg's "You'll get arrested") that are based on
ignorance of the law.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:12:12 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 7:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

There is a certain amount of self-delusion believing that one can control traffic.

For example, there is a descending, hard-right turn on one of my ways home out of town. It's a blind turn, and if you go wide, you can get whacked by the cars coming around the corner from the other direction. Anyway, I take the whole lane setting up for the turn -- I practically get on the center-line so I can swoop hard right. I was doing that the other night, knowing that a car was approaching from the rear. I get practically on the center-line, probably going 25-30mph setting up for the swoop to the right. I look back, and this car is behind me trying to get around -- on a blind turn in the oncoming lane. WTF? If I had gone any more to the left, it probably would have tried to pass me on the right. Nothing happened because I was carrying more speed through the turn than the car, and I think the driver finally decided that accelerating around a bike on a blind turn was a bad idea. As punishment though, I took the lane on the other side of the turn and took my time getting to the next turn to the left.

On the next left -- down this little chute of a road -- I actually did have a lady pass me one evening in a Suburban, while on the cell phone in the middle of the turn while I was in the middle of the road. She basically pushed me over. It was f****** incredible. I was yelling and screaming and beating on her front-right quarter panel -- to no avail. Now not taking the lane would have been wrong in those situations, but some cars you can herd and some you can't. You take the lane, and some cars cross the double yellow, squeeze by you within an inch or two and play chicken with on-coming traffic. It is truly amazing -- and don't get me going about the buses.

Or to put it much more briefly: No technique is perfect. That's true of
every human activity on earth.

But on the road you describe, is it usually better to ride near lane
center? Or is it usually better to hug the gutter as close as you can?

No, I'm a true believer of taking the lane in some places -- although the two of us may differ on when or where.

My point is that like any true believer, there is a certain amount of faith or self-delusion that taking the lane will be safer. It is often the case that the truly punctilious drivers will give you ten feet of clearance even when you're in the gutter or on the shoulder. It's odd. They'll sit behind you 'til the cows come home if you take the lane. And then other drivers will practically run you down when you take the lane. They get enraged and do stupid things to get around you, typically in tight spaces with oncoming traffic. This happens not infrequently on the Old Gorge Highway, which is like a tourist spot -- people are supposed to be chillin', looking at the waterfalls. People who want to make time can take HWY 84. Serious amount of dopes climbing out of Vista House. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOieB41-hfE&t=49s

-- Jay Beattie.

On 01/09/17 11:12, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Most American cyclists tend to hug the gutter or road edge no matter
what. That's true even of avid racers who put in many thousands of
training miles each year. (I've had them brag about how riding inches
from the road edge and not flinching at the resulting close passes is a
sign of great bike handling.)


snip


I don't know a sensible argument for always riding at the extreme edge
of the road. Most (like Joerg's "You'll get arrested") that are based on
ignorance of the law.


I sometimes practise riding on the white fog line. Being able to ride a
straight line unflinchingly becomes useful to cross any of the numerous
pick-a-plank bridges in the area where I live.

--
JS

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:02:23 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

Like many vehicular cycling skeptics, you're pretending that vehicular
cyclists say things they never say. You're constructing straw men to
argue against, as a way to pretend to yourself that you've won some
argument.

Of course there are roads that are better and roads that are worse. Some
are far worse. I've never said a cyclist can comfortably ride absolutely
everywhere. I don't know a single cyclist that has said that, and I've
met and corresponded with the most prominent people who have developed
and taught vehicular cycling techniques.

And all you're doing here is complaining that you were caught saying exactly the same thing as Joerg after telling him he's full of crap.

On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:43:27 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:12:12 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 7:14 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 2:56:51 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

There is a certain amount of self-delusion believing that one can control traffic.

For example, there is a descending, hard-right turn on one of my ways home out of town. It's a blind turn, and if you go wide, you can get whacked by the cars coming around the corner from the other direction. Anyway, I take the whole lane setting up for the turn -- I practically get on the center-line so I can swoop hard right. I was doing that the other night, knowing that a car was approaching from the rear. I get practically on the center-line, probably going 25-30mph setting up for the swoop to the right. I look back, and this car is behind me trying to get around -- on a blind turn in the oncoming lane. WTF? If I had gone any more to the left, it probably would have tried to pass me on the right. Nothing happened because I was carrying more speed through the turn than the car, and I think the driver finally decided that accelerating around a bike on a blind turn was a bad idea. As punishment though, I took the lane on the other side of the turn and took my time getting to the next turn to the left.

On the next left -- down this little chute of a road -- I actually did have a lady pass me one evening in a Suburban, while on the cell phone in the middle of the turn while I was in the middle of the road. She basically pushed me over. It was f****** incredible. I was yelling and screaming and beating on her front-right quarter panel -- to no avail. Now not taking the lane would have been wrong in those situations, but some cars you can herd and some you can't. You take the lane, and some cars cross the double yellow, squeeze by you within an inch or two and play chicken with on-coming traffic. It is truly amazing -- and don't get me going about the buses.

Or to put it much more briefly: No technique is perfect. That's true of
every human activity on earth.

But on the road you describe, is it usually better to ride near lane
center? Or is it usually better to hug the gutter as close as you can?

No, I'm a true believer of taking the lane in some places -- although the two of us may differ on when or where.

My point is that like any true believer, there is a certain amount of faith or self-delusion that taking the lane will be safer. It is often the case that the truly punctilious drivers will give you ten feet of clearance even when you're in the gutter or on the shoulder. It's odd. They'll sit behind you 'til the cows come home if you take the lane. And then other drivers will practically run you down when you take the lane. They get enraged and do stupid things to get around you, typically in tight spaces with oncoming traffic. This happens not infrequently on the Old Gorge Highway, which is like a tourist spot -- people are supposed to be chillin', looking at the waterfalls. People who want to make time can take HWY 84. Serious amount of dopes climbing out of Vista House. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOieB41-hfE&t=49s

My biggest complaint is that when these drivers do this directly in front of a cop, the cop doesn't do a thing.

On 9/1/2017 9:54 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 6:02:23 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/31/2017 5:56 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 31, 2017 at 10:05:44 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/30/2017 10:33 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 5:39:46 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/...icle-1.3453744

There are some tunnels on the San Francisco Penesula that are damned scary. One in particular has you 100 yards into the approach on a slight downhill grade going 20 mph or so and there's a sign that reads "Bicycles not Recommended".

Coming from bright sunlight into the tunnel cars do NOT turn on their lights and bicycles become invisible as the cars speed up to 50+ mph. There is a shoulder wide enough that you aren't in too much danger.

But the other side of the tunnel you are in the number 1 lane of a freeway exit that is four lanes wide with cars exiting the freeway at 70+ mph.

Hugging the left curb until there's a break in traffic I managed to get across into the right shoulder but you can be damn certain I won't be making that mistake again.

Two blocks before that entrance there is a sign that says - "bicycles recommended route" - but there is a lot of truck traffic in that area and it's very easy to miss the sign while watching the traffic.

This is the sort of thing that causes Joerg to make his comments about bicycle paths. Of course as we all know this wouldn't even give Frank a pause.

There are certainly places that "give me pause." I recall years ago, on
a solo overnight camping trip, I rode toward Pittsburgh before heading
further south. At one point near rush hour I found myself trapped on a
limited access highway along a river, probably 45 mph speed limit with
two narrow lanes (maybe nine feet wide), rough pavement, high traffic
and a wall at my right side. I had to ride it for maybe two or three
miles before managing to get to an intersection where I could escape.

Cycling was legal there, but I wouldn't repeat the experience. It was
VERY unpleasant, and had I known the situation ahead of time I'd have
found some alternative. But sometimes these things happen, especially
riding in unfamiliar areas.

BTW, what did I do while riding that stretch of road? I controlled the
lane, of course. Yes, motorists didn't like it. Many honked. But there
was literally no alternative to riding lane center. Letting people
squeeze by without changing lanes would have been stupidly risky.

There, now that didn't hurt did it? That is, admitting that there are some times where vehicular riding just isn't right. I do vehicular riding as much as possible but there are simply times when a bike path is a relief.

Like many vehicular cycling skeptics, you're pretending that vehicular
cyclists say things they never say. You're constructing straw men to
argue against, as a way to pretend to yourself that you've won some
argument.

Of course there are roads that are better and roads that are worse. Some
are far worse. I've never said a cyclist can comfortably ride absolutely
everywhere. I don't know a single cyclist that has said that, and I've
met and corresponded with the most prominent people who have developed
and taught vehicular cycling techniques.

And all you're doing here is complaining that you were caught saying exactly the same thing as Joerg after telling him he's full of crap.

Joerg posted a photo of a totally empty, completely straight two lane
road in open country and said it was very dangerous.

I said riding in fast, dense rush hour traffic in a nine foot lane was
very unpleasant.

Are you claiming those two statements are exactly the same?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 8/31/2017 10:57 PM, James wrote:
On 01/09/17 11:12, Frank Krygowski wrote:


Most American cyclists tend to hug the gutter or road edge no matter
what. That's true even of avid racers who put in many thousands of
training miles each year.Â* (I've had them brag about how riding inches
from the road edge and not flinching at the resulting close passes is a
sign of great bike handling.)


snip


I don't know a sensible argument for always riding at the extreme edge
of the road. Most (like Joerg's "You'll get arrested") that are based on
ignorance of the law.


I sometimes practise riding on the white fog line.Â* Being able to ride a
straight line unflinchingly becomes useful to cross any of the numerous
pick-a-plank bridges in the area where I live.

I sometimes do it for practice as well. It's even more challenging on a
tandem. And sometimes on local roads, the white line is the smoothest
part, so my stoker appreciates it.

But if the adjacent lane were narrow and a motorist was approaching from
behind, I'd probably put up with more roughness to ride lane center and
dissuade a close pass.

--
- Frank Krygowski