Preserving polished aluminum

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 12:06:59 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/2/2017 11:15 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 13:42:40 +0700, John B.
wrote:

If it hadn't been for WWII, the Polish cavalry would have conquered
the world.

Liebermann is Polish?

German. My parents are from Krakow, Poland and had a very different
and unpronounceable last name. After WWII, the only European country
that wasn't totally trashed was Germany, so they emigrated there. I
was born in Munchen, Germany. When we later came to the USA, we took
a German relatives last name. Unfortunately, my parents neglected to
change my first name, which became a problem in skool. When we later
obtained US citizenship, I took the opportunity to change my first
name. After that, I was fully Americanized.

I read that the last Calvary charge, or at least the last one engaging
a substantial number of troops was in 1942 when "about 600 Italian
cavalrymen charged some 2,000 Soviet foot soldiers armed with machine
guns and mortars". They apparently charged, using saber and hand
grenades and rode through the Russian formation and then charged back
through the formation to return to their own lines.

Something like that. I guess the Italians followed the Polish bad
example. I dunno about the hand grenades. Tossing grenades in the
middle of a densely packed cavalry charge, on open ground, is going to
produce collateral damage.

Until I just read the following pages,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty
http://www.polamjournal.com/Library/APHistory/Cavalry_Myth/cavalry_myth.html
I had thought that the Polish cavalry really did try to attack German
tanks at the start of WWII. Apparently, this was not true.



Interesting item on that page regarding autumn 1939:
"Each single-turret version of these Polish 7TP tanks
carried a 37mm main gun and up to 17mm of armor plate. They
were superior in both armor and armament to most of the
invading German tanks, and they were the world’s first
diesel powered tanks to see action. "

Yet the richly detailed masterwork _Nomonhon_ [1] says that
at the start of skirmishes in 1938 there were mixed diesel
and gasoline tanks and armored cars on both sides but the
gasoline vehicles proved so fatal to their crews that at the
end, summer 1939, mostly diesel were fielded.

As regards 'action', Zhukov rolled up the Kwantung Army like
a used carpet with 75% casualty rate (45,000 of the
60,000-man force)

[1]
https://www.alibris.com/Nomonhan-Jap...995?matches=37

Somewhere I read a book written by a German officer who served with
the tank forces and apparently the German tanks in the early days of
the war weren't very effective. He specifically mentioned very limited
track life and a lack of tank carriers. I gathered from the book that
German tank successes during the early days was more a matter of
tactics rather then equipment.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:15:51 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Somewhere I read a book written by a German officer who served with
the tank forces and apparently the German tanks in the early days of
the war weren't very effective. He specifically mentioned very limited
track life and a lack of tank carriers. I gathered from the book that
German tank successes during the early days was more a matter of
tactics rather then equipment.

The early German tanks used for the invasion of Poland and France were
partly from the Skoda works in Czechoslovakia:
http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/tech/land/tank/cou/tc-cz.html
These gasoline powered tanks were tolerable if they were built prior
to about Oct 1938, and really shoddy after the Nazi's took over the
rest of Czechoslovakia in Mar 1939.




--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 19:49:15 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Aug 2017 09:15:51 +0700, John B.
wrote:

Somewhere I read a book written by a German officer who served with
the tank forces and apparently the German tanks in the early days of
the war weren't very effective. He specifically mentioned very limited
track life and a lack of tank carriers. I gathered from the book that
German tank successes during the early days was more a matter of
tactics rather then equipment.

The early German tanks used for the invasion of Poland and France were
partly from the Skoda works in Czechoslovakia:
http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/tech/land/tank/cou/tc-cz.html
These gasoline powered tanks were tolerable if they were built prior
to about Oct 1938, and really shoddy after the Nazi's took over the
rest of Czechoslovakia in Mar 1939.

I knew that German tanks were made in Russia in the early days as the
Treaty of Versailles forbid the Germans from having them. They were
referred to as tractors in discussions I believe.

The first fully German designed and made tank was the Panzer I, of
which about 1,500 were built and a few actually used in the Spanish
Civil War in 1936.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, August 2, 2017 at 7:15:54 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 12:06:59 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/2/2017 11:15 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 02 Aug 2017 13:42:40 +0700, John B.
wrote:

If it hadn't been for WWII, the Polish cavalry would have conquered
the world.

Liebermann is Polish?

German. My parents are from Krakow, Poland and had a very different
and unpronounceable last name. After WWII, the only European country
that wasn't totally trashed was Germany, so they emigrated there. I
was born in Munchen, Germany. When we later came to the USA, we took
a German relatives last name. Unfortunately, my parents neglected to
change my first name, which became a problem in skool. When we later
obtained US citizenship, I took the opportunity to change my first
name. After that, I was fully Americanized.

I read that the last Calvary charge, or at least the last one engaging
a substantial number of troops was in 1942 when "about 600 Italian
cavalrymen charged some 2,000 Soviet foot soldiers armed with machine
guns and mortars". They apparently charged, using saber and hand
grenades and rode through the Russian formation and then charged back
through the formation to return to their own lines.

Something like that. I guess the Italians followed the Polish bad
example. I dunno about the hand grenades. Tossing grenades in the
middle of a densely packed cavalry charge, on open ground, is going to
produce collateral damage.

Until I just read the following pages,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge_at_Krojanty
http://www.polamjournal.com/Library/APHistory/Cavalry_Myth/cavalry_myth.html
I had thought that the Polish cavalry really did try to attack German
tanks at the start of WWII. Apparently, this was not true.



Interesting item on that page regarding autumn 1939:
"Each single-turret version of these Polish 7TP tanks
carried a 37mm main gun and up to 17mm of armor plate. They
were superior in both armor and armament to most of the
invading German tanks, and they were the world’s first
diesel powered tanks to see action. "

Yet the richly detailed masterwork _Nomonhon_ [1] says that
at the start of skirmishes in 1938 there were mixed diesel
and gasoline tanks and armored cars on both sides but the
gasoline vehicles proved so fatal to their crews that at the
end, summer 1939, mostly diesel were fielded.

As regards 'action', Zhukov rolled up the Kwantung Army like
a used carpet with 75% casualty rate (45,000 of the
60,000-man force)

[1]
https://www.alibris.com/Nomonhan-Jap...995?matches=37

Somewhere I read a book written by a German officer who served with
the tank forces and apparently the German tanks in the early days of
the war weren't very effective. He specifically mentioned very limited
track life and a lack of tank carriers. I gathered from the book that
German tank successes during the early days was more a matter of
tactics rather then equipment.

that was all quiet on the western front

On Sunday, July 30, 2017 at 8:52:38 PM UTC-4, wrote:
A KNOCKOUT

https://media.defense.gov/2007/Oct/2...-1234S-008.JPG

The shine lasts for the airshow, then begins to turn dull. I have seen polished aluminum planes fly into Oshkosh already splotched from moisture and bugs. The owners get out and expend tremendous elbow grease with cornstarch to remove some of the splotching. By the end of the airshow, the aircraft, in this case a P-51, will have already begun to turn.

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:46:41 +1000, James
wrote:

On 31/07/17 12:54, John B. wrote:


The alodine I have used to coat aircraft parts gave a yellowish tint
to the finished part. I guess it was designed as a preservative, not a
beautifier :-)



Both form a barrier to further corrosion, but alodine is a conductive
coating where as anodized is insulative. Also alodine is easy to
scratch, where as anodized finish is harder.

Alodine is available in different colours, IIRC.

Ah, I didn't know that. I never actually used it a great deal but back
then it was a yellowish and rather thin liquid that we dipped or
painted any raw machined aluminum things we made with.

I'll research it a bit more. If there is a clear version then it would
probably work well.
--
Cheers,

John B.

I have used lots of alodine on aircraft aluminum, but not to preserve a shine. I used it either to stop corrosion, which 2024 is susceptible to, or to get the aluminum ready to paint.. There is one aluminum conversion treatment (Aircraft Spruce) that does not leave the aluminum yellowish but it won't preserve the luster. All of the aluminum chemical treatments are designed to leave an etch on the aluminum so that paint will adhere to it.

Most 2024 aluminum sheet comes "alclad," i. e., it is clad with anodized micro-coating of pure aluminum to retard corrosion. The pure aluminum, as opposed to the copper-aluminum alloy, forms a protective oxide layer. 2024 without alclad will corrode like crazy, especially in humid environments.

I have an old airplane with some magnesium alloys like aileron hinges which are exposed to the environment. Left untreated, they corrode like crazy too.

On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 17:55:06 -0700 (PDT), Ashevilliot
wrote:

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:46:41 +1000, James
wrote:

On 31/07/17 12:54, John B. wrote:


The alodine I have used to coat aircraft parts gave a yellowish tint
to the finished part. I guess it was designed as a preservative, not a
beautifier :-)



Both form a barrier to further corrosion, but alodine is a conductive
coating where as anodized is insulative. Also alodine is easy to
scratch, where as anodized finish is harder.

Alodine is available in different colours, IIRC.

Ah, I didn't know that. I never actually used it a great deal but back
then it was a yellowish and rather thin liquid that we dipped or
painted any raw machined aluminum things we made with.

I'll research it a bit more. If there is a clear version then it would
probably work well.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I have an old airplane with some magnesium alloys like aileron hinges
which are exposed to the environment. Left untreated, they corrode
like crazy too.

Interesting. What aircraft? I would have thought that the extra cost
of magnesium would preclude its use for something like hinges.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 8:45:43 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 17:55:06 -0700 (PDT), Ashevilliot
wrote:

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:46:41 +1000, James
wrote:

On 31/07/17 12:54, John B. wrote:


The alodine I have used to coat aircraft parts gave a yellowish tint
to the finished part. I guess it was designed as a preservative, not a
beautifier :-)



Both form a barrier to further corrosion, but alodine is a conductive
coating where as anodized is insulative. Also alodine is easy to
scratch, where as anodized finish is harder.

Alodine is available in different colours, IIRC.

Ah, I didn't know that. I never actually used it a great deal but back
then it was a yellowish and rather thin liquid that we dipped or
painted any raw machined aluminum things we made with.

I'll research it a bit more. If there is a clear version then it would
probably work well.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I have an old airplane with some magnesium alloys like aileron hinges
which are exposed to the environment. Left untreated, they corrode
like crazy too.

Interesting. What aircraft? I would have thought that the extra cost
of magnesium would preclude its use for something like hinges.

Magnesium is five times more common than aluminum so really is shouldn't cost more.

On 8/4/2017 8:38 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 8:45:43 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 17:55:06 -0700 (PDT), Ashevilliot
wrote:

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:46:41 +1000, James
wrote:

On 31/07/17 12:54, John B. wrote:


The alodine I have used to coat aircraft parts gave a yellowish tint
to the finished part. I guess it was designed as a preservative, not a
beautifier :-)



Both form a barrier to further corrosion, but alodine is a conductive
coating where as anodized is insulative. Also alodine is easy to
scratch, where as anodized finish is harder.

Alodine is available in different colours, IIRC.

Ah, I didn't know that. I never actually used it a great deal but back
then it was a yellowish and rather thin liquid that we dipped or
painted any raw machined aluminum things we made with.

I'll research it a bit more. If there is a clear version then it would
probably work well.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I have an old airplane with some magnesium alloys like aileron hinges
which are exposed to the environment. Left untreated, they corrode
like crazy too.

Interesting. What aircraft? I would have thought that the extra cost
of magnesium would preclude its use for something like hinges.

Magnesium is five times more common than aluminum so really is shouldn't cost more.


I do not know from airplanes. However here are
prices for magnesium:
http://www.infomine.com/investment/m...esium/6-month/

prices for aluminum:
http://www.infomine.com/investment/m...minum/6-month/

Note that titanium is extremely plentiful but refining and
processing (not to mention fabrication) costs make it not so
cheap to the end user.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, August 3, 2017 at 11:45:43 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Aug 2017 17:55:06 -0700 (PDT), Ashevilliot
wrote:

On Monday, July 31, 2017 at 5:01:29 AM UTC-4, John B. wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2017 15:46:41 +1000, James
wrote:

On 31/07/17 12:54, John B. wrote:


The alodine I have used to coat aircraft parts gave a yellowish tint
to the finished part. I guess it was designed as a preservative, not a
beautifier :-)



Both form a barrier to further corrosion, but alodine is a conductive
coating where as anodized is insulative. Also alodine is easy to
scratch, where as anodized finish is harder.

Alodine is available in different colours, IIRC.

Ah, I didn't know that. I never actually used it a great deal but back
then it was a yellowish and rather thin liquid that we dipped or
painted any raw machined aluminum things we made with.

I'll research it a bit more. If there is a clear version then it would
probably work well.
--
Cheers,

John B.



I have an old airplane with some magnesium alloys like aileron hinges
which are exposed to the environment. Left untreated, they corrode
like crazy too.

Interesting. What aircraft? I would have thought that the extra cost
of magnesium would preclude its use for something like hinges.
--
Cheers,

John B.

The hinge is an alloy, not pure magnesium. There are three on each wing. These alloys add lightness, even better than aluminum. I bought a few spares a decade or so ago after one of my hinges broke because of corrosion. $2 apiece from an old bush pilot in upstate New York. The spares I treated with a chemical wash, probably a chromic acid solution, manufactured for the purpose. Then I painted with chromate paint, another coating to hedge against corrosion.

The aircraft is a '46 Taylorcraft manufactured in Alliance, Ohio.

Lots of aircraft and aircraft engines have magnesium parts. Some of the old VW crankcases were castings of magnesium. You can take drill filings and burn them. They make spectacular hot fires.

I have rebuilt recip aircraft engines in which the oil sump and the rear accessory case (for oil pump and magnetos) were magnesium castings. They are beautiful parts but quite delicate when you're wrenching on them.

http://www.univair.com/taylorcraft/v...hinge-bracket/

Take a look at the bronze bushings.

Yes, if you buy these parts new, they are quite expensive. This hinge is elongated to permit the "up" aileron's leading edge to protrude down into the airstream and cause a corresponding drag when the draggy "down" aileron (which is lifting that wing) is actuated. It's quite a neat idea, learned long before WWII of course, to decrease yaw and foster coordinated flight when the aircraft is in a turn. You also have to step on the rudder pedals in a turn. And keep the ball centered. These are called "Frise" ailerons, probably named after some aero engineer named "Frise." [Yep it was a Brit engineer who invented them. I just looked it up.]

Now you guys all go out and get some flight instruction, or just learn on your own like Orville and Wilbur and Cale did. More fun than anything else you can do with your clothes on.

Great old aero engineer Nick Jones once told me that NASCAR champ, Cale Yarborough, bought himself a Piper Cub (also designed by C. G. Taylor, btw) and checked himself out in it that afternoon. The next day he checked out a couple of his buddies in it. Some people are just naturals at flying. If you're good on a bike, you can fly! Plant the tailwheel first on landing and don't ground loop it.