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  #31  
Old August 13th 19, 10:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Default Recovery and Diet

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 11:21:18 AM UTC-7, Claus Aßmann wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

the most common power meters are built-in to cranks.
Aside from the fact that most only read directly from half a crank,


As long as the power meter isn't only in a single crank _arm_, it
measure the total outout (check how the power goes to the rear
wheel...)

PROS do not produce this level of power for 10K - they can do it for 100K.


Please tell us which "PROS" can generate 400W for 100K. (BTW: are
you talking about km (kilo meters, metric) or something else when
you write "K"?) You might want to look at the power output for the
hour record -- obviously that kind of power can NOT be achieved for
two hours.


Tell us about Matteo Trintin in this year's Tour.
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  #32  
Old August 13th 19, 10:23 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Default Recovery and Diet

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 9:55:44 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 6:09:24 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 5:35:48 PM UTC-7, Claus Aßmann wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

10K I have generated as much as 400 watts over that distance

So you can _average_ 400 W for 16 kilometers ("10K") (i.e., for
about 25 minutes)?
How did you measure that power output?

--
Note: please read the netiquette before posting. I will almost never
reply to top-postings which include a full copy of the previous
article(s) at the end because it's annoying, shows that the poster
is too lazy to trim his article, and it's wasting the time of all readers.


You measure that output by weight, approximated frontal area, wind speed and time for the distance. Power meters cannot give you a more accurate reading than that. In fact, the most common power meters are built-in to cranks. Aside from the fact that most only read directly from half a crank, they also do not read accurately for actual power. They read via distortion of the cranks meaning that you have to have precise control of the metallurgy and perfect installation angle.


They are all calibrated Tom.


For instance, last year I did 10K into a 20 mph wind in 21 minutes. The combined weight was 94 kg and the frontal area about .79 meters^2.


Almost 46 km/hr into a headwind of 32 km/hr for 16 km? Indeed you a Pro level material Tom at your age. Hat off.


The only real accurate power meters are rear hub mechanisms which can be fully machined so that every component is as accurate as possible.


Rear hub power meters don't take drive train losses into account. I put my money on well calibrated crank or pedal based power meters.

Lou


For three of those miles I was not directly into the wind but quartering into it. And this is a top line performance. I only do something like that very rarely and not every ride like pros do. This is the difference between a Cat 1,2 or 3 and a pro. Anyone that rides enough can have a good ride. It is having a good ride ALWAYS that sets the pros apart from the amateurs.
  #33  
Old August 13th 19, 11:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Default Recovery and Diet

Claus, I wonder if you realize just how damn good a domestique is. This was the difference between Allaphillip winning the Tour and ending up fifth. Most of those domestiques in the pro peloton can ride at 400 watts for hours at a stretch. Even higher. Why do you suppose near the end of a stage they drop off and then drag in with the lantern rouge? I was in my early 70's when I did that and I think you're suggesting that a 26 year old with flawless training schedules and perfect diet and monitored every day by an MD couldn't do 10 times what I could.

OK, I just did the calculations for what the peloton did for several hours - 45 kph - 28 mph. While the top teams are on the front reducing the loading on the rest of the peloton they went about 28 mph for two hours on several occasions on the flats.

That means that the lead rider is making about 426 watts and there is a rotation of only 8 riders so you don't have that much time off of the front.
  #34  
Old August 13th 19, 11:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
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Posts: 824
Default Recovery and Diet

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:46:39 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:54:04 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 4:27:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 3:05:11 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 1:04:22 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 12:43:05 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 8:41:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 1:46:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 10:00:57 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
Personal experience and Global Cycling News programming often disagree as they have speaking about Ketone diets.

As it turns out, a weight loss diet and their idea of a Ketone dirt are more or less the same thing. Protein and Fats and no carbohydrates.

Since my wife has been trying to lose weight (and has been successful) I've ended up eating GCN's sort of Ketone Diet.

It hasn't have any positive effect on my performance and I can tell you that. Yet when I stop on a ride and have a coffee and a sugar roll, I get not only a boost in performance but I feel a lot better after the ride without the need to fall asleep in the lounge chair before I can even put the bike away.

Now what this is telling me is that if you are on the Ketone Diet your (or perhaps only my) liver simply cannot metabolize fat fast enough to maintain a performance level, but the speed with which I can metabolize carbohydrates is enough to hold my performance levels (which, granted are only around 200 Watts on a good day) for my normal rides of around 40-60 miles with a lot of climbing.

Now if we are talking a scant 10K I have generated as much as 400 watts over that distance a couple of times this year.

Even in the Pro peloton the effect of ketons is questioned. Best and cheapest recovery drink is 0.5 liter of low fat choco drink: 2 third carbs and 1 third protein.

Again Tom 400 W is Pro level, even for 10 k miles. I set a new personal record yesterday for a Strava segment here in my neighborhood. Flat, no stop signs, almost no traffic and a moderate tailwind: 5.53 km in 7min 23 sec; average speed 45 km/hr. Average power of 259 Watt, measured with a power meter. Average heartbeat of 167 bpm. Overall place 44 out of 4070. First place out of 207 in this years classification in my age category: 55-64 yr. I am 62 y old. So I'm above average and nowhere near 400 W for a shorter distance. Again 400 Watt is Pro level.

Lou

I have the idea that you don't climb Lou. You absolutely must generate a lot of power to climb and the 12 or more percentage grades can take power in the 400 to 600 category just to crest.

Well I certainly don't climb as much as I would like but I have my moments and I have those moments for 30 years now:

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3820852059

That aside grade has little to do with power. You only need the proper gearing. I can haul 85 kg 850 meter up in an hour. The average power needed for that is (mass*gravitational acceleration*elevation gain)/time in sec = (85*9.81*850)/3600 Nm/sec (= Watt) = 197 Watt. I can use the same available power to go fast against a headwind. There is nothing special about climbing when we talk about power needed. Accelerating after a corner or sprinting over a highway overpass you can easily exceed 600 Watt, but only for a short time. 400 Watt average over a distance of 16 km is a hard to believe value. Try a proper power meter and look at the data during a ride.


Stages. Its the best. https://stagescycling.com/us/products/power/

-- Jay Beattie.

Just out of curiosity what do you need that for? My brother has one and while he has high average speeds the power output doesn't seem particularly impressive. Racers use it in a race so that they don't go too hard too early - are you racing?

No, I'm trying to support my son's employer. Training with power is SOP for racers and sport riders these days. I'm not into data, because its mostly depressing, but some people love it -- like most of my friends. And god bless them for supporting Stages. If it's good enough for Sky/Ineos, its good enough for you! https://www.teamineos.com/sponsors/stages Offices in Portland Ory-gun. You need one because you quote all these whacky power figures calculated from god-knows-what. Get a real power meter with your savvy investment earnings.

-- Jay Beattie.


You don't invest do you? If you did you'd have some idea of what the market is doing lately.


Let me check my investments. Hmmmm. I certainly made enough this month to buy a power meter, among other things. Not so good for you? Sorry your guy has thrown the equities market into spasms. Should have bought real estate.

If you believe that a power meter is good for anything other than a racer monitoring his power output in a race soas not to overwhelm himself at the wrong time then it is a good thing you are a lawyer. As an athlete you'd be a failure within minutes.


You natter on about your spectacular power output and then claim that an actual measuring device is only for racers. So for non-racers like you who are clearly interested in power, what is the option -- some faith-based measuring device? Astrology? Measuring power is more than just timing efforts. Many people train with power to improve fitness, ensure recovery, etc., etc. There are actually whole books about it!

-- Jay Beattie.


You quite obviously don't understand.

A power meter is a vital accessory for the elderly bicycle enthusiast
as how else can he brag about his accomplishments - "I averaged 12 mph
for two hours last Sunday".

--
cheers,

John B.

  #35  
Old August 13th 19, 11:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 760
Default Recovery and Diet

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 1:14:58 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 2:21:18 PM UTC-4, Claus Aßmann wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

the most common power meters are built-in to cranks.
Aside from the fact that most only read directly from half a crank,


As long as the power meter isn't only in a single crank _arm_, it
measure the total outout (check how the power goes to the rear
wheel...)

PROS do not produce this level of power for 10K - they can do it for 100K.


Please tell us which "PROS" can generate 400W for 100K. (BTW: are
you talking about km (kilo meters, metric) or something else when
you write "K"?) You might want to look at the power output for the
hour record -- obviously that kind of power can NOT be achieved for
two hours.


Tom is using K (1,000) instead of km (1) by mistake.

Cheers


You and Frank have a lot in common. The last time you rode was down to the store and back. For another pack of cigarettes.
  #36  
Old August 13th 19, 11:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 4,174
Default Recovery and Diet

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 2:15:34 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 9:46:42 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 8:54:04 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 4:27:49 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 3:05:11 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 1:04:22 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 12:43:05 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 8:41:28 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 1:46:55 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 10:00:57 PM UTC+2, Tom Kunich wrote:
Personal experience and Global Cycling News programming often disagree as they have speaking about Ketone diets.

As it turns out, a weight loss diet and their idea of a Ketone dirt are more or less the same thing. Protein and Fats and no carbohydrates.

Since my wife has been trying to lose weight (and has been successful) I've ended up eating GCN's sort of Ketone Diet.

It hasn't have any positive effect on my performance and I can tell you that. Yet when I stop on a ride and have a coffee and a sugar roll, I get not only a boost in performance but I feel a lot better after the ride without the need to fall asleep in the lounge chair before I can even put the bike away.

Now what this is telling me is that if you are on the Ketone Diet your (or perhaps only my) liver simply cannot metabolize fat fast enough to maintain a performance level, but the speed with which I can metabolize carbohydrates is enough to hold my performance levels (which, granted are only around 200 Watts on a good day) for my normal rides of around 40-60 miles with a lot of climbing.

Now if we are talking a scant 10K I have generated as much as 400 watts over that distance a couple of times this year.

Even in the Pro peloton the effect of ketons is questioned. Best and cheapest recovery drink is 0.5 liter of low fat choco drink: 2 third carbs and 1 third protein.

Again Tom 400 W is Pro level, even for 10 k miles. I set a new personal record yesterday for a Strava segment here in my neighborhood. Flat, no stop signs, almost no traffic and a moderate tailwind: 5.53 km in 7min 23 sec; average speed 45 km/hr. Average power of 259 Watt, measured with a power meter. Average heartbeat of 167 bpm. Overall place 44 out of 4070. First place out of 207 in this years classification in my age category: 55-64 yr. I am 62 y old. So I'm above average and nowhere near 400 W for a shorter distance. Again 400 Watt is Pro level.

Lou

I have the idea that you don't climb Lou. You absolutely must generate a lot of power to climb and the 12 or more percentage grades can take power in the 400 to 600 category just to crest.

Well I certainly don't climb as much as I would like but I have my moments and I have those moments for 30 years now:

https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/3820852059

That aside grade has little to do with power. You only need the proper gearing. I can haul 85 kg 850 meter up in an hour. The average power needed for that is (mass*gravitational acceleration*elevation gain)/time in sec = (85*9.81*850)/3600 Nm/sec (= Watt) = 197 Watt. I can use the same available power to go fast against a headwind. There is nothing special about climbing when we talk about power needed. Accelerating after a corner or sprinting over a highway overpass you can easily exceed 600 Watt, but only for a short time. 400 Watt average over a distance of 16 km is a hard to believe value. Try a proper power meter and look at the data during a ride.


Stages. Its the best. https://stagescycling.com/us/products/power/

-- Jay Beattie.

Just out of curiosity what do you need that for? My brother has one and while he has high average speeds the power output doesn't seem particularly impressive. Racers use it in a race so that they don't go too hard too early - are you racing?

No, I'm trying to support my son's employer. Training with power is SOP for racers and sport riders these days. I'm not into data, because its mostly depressing, but some people love it -- like most of my friends. And god bless them for supporting Stages. If it's good enough for Sky/Ineos, its good enough for you! https://www.teamineos.com/sponsors/stages Offices in Portland Ory-gun. You need one because you quote all these whacky power figures calculated from god-knows-what. Get a real power meter with your savvy investment earnings.

-- Jay Beattie.

You don't invest do you? If you did you'd have some idea of what the market is doing lately.


Let me check my investments. Hmmmm. I certainly made enough this month to buy a power meter, among other things. Not so good for you? Sorry your guy has thrown the equities market into spasms. Should have bought real estate.

If you believe that a power meter is good for anything other than a racer monitoring his power output in a race soas not to overwhelm himself at the wrong time then it is a good thing you are a lawyer. As an athlete you'd be a failure within minutes.


You natter on about your spectacular power output and then claim that an actual measuring device is only for racers. So for non-racers like you who are clearly interested in power, what is the option -- some faith-based measuring device? Astrology? Measuring power is more than just timing efforts. Many people train with power to improve fitness, ensure recovery, etc., etc. There are actually whole books about it!

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, unlike you I don't need to check my investments. I get a report every month and through that horrible month last month I still made enough to buy all the power meters I wanted if I ever wanted one. Despite changing from one investment firm to another in the last two months at Merrill Lynch I've made 8%. Now I auppoaw you're going to tell me you made more.


Absolutely. The amount I made last month is crazy. I'm going to buy a two-sided Stages power meter and Jeff Epstein's Carribbean Island, and I'll still have enough left over for a G-II.

-- Jay Beattie.

  #37  
Old August 14th 19, 12:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 4,488
Default Recovery and Diet

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 6:35:56 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 1:14:58 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 2:21:18 PM UTC-4, Claus Aßmann wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

the most common power meters are built-in to cranks.
Aside from the fact that most only read directly from half a crank,

As long as the power meter isn't only in a single crank _arm_, it
measure the total outout (check how the power goes to the rear
wheel...)

PROS do not produce this level of power for 10K - they can do it for 100K.

Please tell us which "PROS" can generate 400W for 100K. (BTW: are
you talking about km (kilo meters, metric) or something else when
you write "K"?) You might want to look at the power output for the
hour record -- obviously that kind of power can NOT be achieved for
two hours.


Tom is using K (1,000) instead of km (1) by mistake.

Cheers


You and Frank have a lot in common. The last time you rode was down to the store and back. For another pack of cigarettes.


I've refrained from replying to many of your rantings but...

You are absolutely hilarious with your misconceptions, your errors and your plain lack of knowledge in so many topics you post about.

For your information, not that I need to provide, I've never smoked a cigarette or tried smoking one in my entire life. You sir, are completely delusional.

Cheers
  #38  
Old August 14th 19, 01:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Recovery and Diet

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 15:35:54 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 1:14:58 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 2:21:18 PM UTC-4, Claus Amann wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

the most common power meters are built-in to cranks.
Aside from the fact that most only read directly from half a crank,

As long as the power meter isn't only in a single crank _arm_, it
measure the total outout (check how the power goes to the rear
wheel...)

PROS do not produce this level of power for 10K - they can do it for 100K.

Please tell us which "PROS" can generate 400W for 100K. (BTW: are
you talking about km (kilo meters, metric) or something else when
you write "K"?) You might want to look at the power output for the
hour record -- obviously that kind of power can NOT be achieved for
two hours.


Tom is using K (1,000) instead of km (1) by mistake.

Cheers


You and Frank have a lot in common. The last time you rode was down to the store and back. For another pack of cigarettes.


Actually "K", pr "kay" seemed to enter the USian vocabulary about the
time of the Vietnam war when unschooled U.S. Servicemen started using
the term to indicate both speed and distance.

"Hot Damn! The Cyclo broke and we had to walk 10 K", or "Hot Damn! we
were doing almost 10 K in that Cyclo".
--
cheers,

John B.

  #39  
Old August 14th 19, 01:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 824
Default Recovery and Diet

On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 16:52:48 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 6:35:56 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 1:14:58 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 2:21:18 PM UTC-4, Claus Amann wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

the most common power meters are built-in to cranks.
Aside from the fact that most only read directly from half a crank,

As long as the power meter isn't only in a single crank _arm_, it
measure the total outout (check how the power goes to the rear
wheel...)

PROS do not produce this level of power for 10K - they can do it for 100K.

Please tell us which "PROS" can generate 400W for 100K. (BTW: are
you talking about km (kilo meters, metric) or something else when
you write "K"?) You might want to look at the power output for the
hour record -- obviously that kind of power can NOT be achieved for
two hours.

Tom is using K (1,000) instead of km (1) by mistake.

Cheers


You and Frank have a lot in common. The last time you rode was down to the store and back. For another pack of cigarettes.


I've refrained from replying to many of your rantings but...

You are absolutely hilarious with your misconceptions, your errors and your plain lack of knowledge in so many topics you post about.

For your information, not that I need to provide, I've never smoked a cigarette or tried smoking one in my entire life. You sir, are completely delusional.

Cheers


But Sir! it is so difficult to insult someone if one is restricted to
telling the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #40  
Old August 14th 19, 02:08 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,545
Default Recovery and Diet

John B. wrote:
On Tue, 13 Aug 2019 16:52:48 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 6:35:56 PM UTC-4, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 1:14:58 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 13, 2019 at 2:21:18 PM UTC-4, Claus Amann wrote:
Tom Kunich wrote:

the most common power meters are built-in to cranks.
Aside from the fact that most only read directly from half a crank,

As long as the power meter isn't only in a single crank _arm_, it
measure the total outout (check how the power goes to the rear
wheel...)

PROS do not produce this level of power for 10K - they can do it for 100K.

Please tell us which "PROS" can generate 400W for 100K. (BTW: are
you talking about km (kilo meters, metric) or something else when
you write "K"?) You might want to look at the power output for the
hour record -- obviously that kind of power can NOT be achieved for
two hours.

Tom is using K (1,000) instead of km (1) by mistake.

Cheers

You and Frank have a lot in common. The last time you rode was down to
the store and back. For another pack of cigarettes.


I've refrained from replying to many of your rantings but...

You are absolutely hilarious with your misconceptions, your errors and
your plain lack of knowledge in so many topics you post about.

For your information, not that I need to provide, I've never smoked a
cigarette or tried smoking one in my entire life. You sir, are completely delusional.

Cheers


But Sir! it is so difficult to insult someone if one is restricted to
telling the truth.
--
cheers,

John B.



Not always.

--
duane
 




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