Rohloff Speedhub

In writes:

http://www.rohloff.de/index.php?p=TE...ettenreinigung

This page suggests that a chain should not be allowed to get dirty and
that if it gets dirty, it cannot be cleaned effectively. It also
states that chain cleaners destroy subsequently applied lubrication.

I guess you'll have to buy more new Rohloff chains.

Is a Rohloff chain different from other chains?

Mike

wrote:

What is "base lubrication"
The grease you find inside the chain when you take a new chain apart.

and what are these chemicals, what do they
do to chains, and what is destroyed "inside the chain"?
The article in TOUR showed several chains that were used on a machine that
copies the use of a chain on a bike. The chains were sprayed with dirt and
some were cleaned by rubbing the dirt of with a cloth and others were
treated with liquids that degrease as one can find these in bike shops,
other chains were cleaned with diesel. After these tests the chains were
measured (length and lateral play) )and taken apart in a lab, where was
checked if grease was present inside the chain. If I remember well, the
test results in TOUR were as follows :
1) Wiping of dirt with a piece of cloth (jeans for example)made the chains
last longest.
2) If you use a liquid to clean, a liquid that evaporates fast is the best
choice (like diesel or petroleum).
3) The worst results came from using other sorts of liquids that are sold in
shops

Greets, Derk

Derk who? writes:

What do you suppose they mean by "We do not recommend any of the
currently available chain cleaning devices because the liquids
used normally have a very negative effect in the chain links."?

They refer to the base lubrication that is destroyed inside the
chain when chemicals are being used. It's impossible to restore
this by applying oil on the chain after cleaning with chemicals.
(according to lab tests carried out by TOUR Magazin).

That doesn't make it any clearer to me.

What is "base lubrication" and what are these chemicals, what do
they do to chains, and what is destroyed "inside the chain"?

Please note that chains are steel and therefore, not soluble in
hydrocarbon cleaning solvents. Water based cleaners also have no
effect on steel other than accelerating rust if not dried after
use.

The grease you find inside the chain when you take a new chain apart.

So? I can replace that. Why is that not reasonable?

The article in TOUR showed several chains that were used on a
machine that copies the use of a chain on a bike. The chains were
sprayed with dirt and some were cleaned by rubbing the dirt of with
a cloth and others were treated with liquids that degrease as one
can find these in bike shops, other chains were cleaned with
diesel. After these tests the chains were measured (length and
lateral play) )and taken apart in a lab, where was checked if grease
was present inside the chain. If I remember well, the test results
in TOUR were as follows:

1) Wiping of dirt with a piece of cloth (jeans for example)made the
chains last longest.
2) If you use a liquid to clean, a liquid that evaporates fast is
the best choice (like diesel or petroleum).
3) The worst results came from using other sorts of liquids that are
sold in shops

I guess I'm not making much progress but from what you cite from the
magazine article, grit that gets worked into a chain is best left in
there to grind up the pins and sleeves. Wiping the outside
cosmetically doesn't have any effect on the dirt in a chain. I believe
you can understand that.

This evaporation rate has nothing to do with how it cleans or removes
fine grit from the inside of a chain. The user can deal with removing
solvent from a chain. That isn't the problem here. For mechanical
parts the above advice is absurd and contrary to all experience in the
machinery business, be that automotive or machine tools in a machine
shop. I can only imagine that Tour is being mis-quoted.

The chain of a bicycle ridden in the rain for a distance of a few
kilometers has no lubricant in it. That is evident from the squeaking
it makes afterward. If all lubricant can be washed out by dirty rain
water, I believe it is reasonable to wash out the sludge of rain water
and road grit before drying the chain and lubrication it. From what
you cite, this is not true.

Jobst Brandt

RE/
What is "base lubrication"

I can't offer a citation, but recollect reading that SRAM applies a lube at the
factory that they recommend against removing.
--
PeteCresswell

Pete Cresswell writes:

What is "base lubrication"

I can't offer a citation, but recollect reading that SRAM applies a
lube at the factory that they recommend against removing.

This subject has been discussed at great length here with the chain
cleaning before use proponents saying that this is not a lubricant in
opposition to my explanations to the contrary.

http://draco.acs.uci.edu/rbfaq/FAQ/8d.2.html

Jobst Brandt

Hi,

About my name: my friends call me just "Derk". I have a family name that is
completely unique in Holland and my interests vary from cycling,
(g)astronomy, birdwatching, optics to politics. A friend of mine (a VERY
moderate person) who happily wrote an article with his complete name under
it, got an anonymous letter made of hundreds of words clipped from
newspaper articles the next day.You can guess this wasn't a very nice
letter. This seems to be normal in Holland these days. To avoid this I
prefer to use my first name only.

wrote:

So? I can replace that. Why is that not reasonable?
According to the article, they found in lab tests proof of the opposite:
once the original grease has been removed/destroyed by these chemicals,
it's impossible to replace it. THat's what they showed in the pictures of
the article. The chains that had been wiped of still had intact grease
inside and this layer of grease could not be restored by applying oil on
the ones that had been cleaned with chemicals.

I guess I'm not making much progress but from what you cite from the
magazine article, grit that gets worked into a chain is best left in
there to grind up the pins and sleeves.

Wiping the outside cosmetically doesn't have any effect on the dirt in a
chain.
It doesn't make much sence to put oil on a dirty chain that has a layer of
mud on it.

This evaporation rate has nothing to do with how it cleans or removes
fine grit from the inside of a chain.
I suddenly remember: the article showed that chemicals can't be washed out
completely and therefore attacked the oil that was put on the chain after
the cleaning process, whilst diesel evaporates completely and therefore
does less harm.

That isn't the problem here. For mechanical
parts the above advice is absurd and contrary to all experience in the
machinery business, be that automotive or machine tools in a machine
shop. I can only imagine that Tour is being mis-quoted.
I'm not mistaken. There must be other readers of TOUR who read this and can
confirm this.


The chain of a bicycle ridden in the rain for a distance of a few
kilometers has no lubricant in it. That is evident from the squeaking
it makes afterward.
I use Rohloff oil that is very sticky. I have a bike that I only ride in the
rain and I haven't cleaned the chain in 2000 kn's. It's still not making
any noise (Ultegra 8S chain with Rohloff oil on it).

If all lubricant can be washed out by dirty rain
water, I believe it is reasonable to wash out the sludge of rain water
and road grit before drying the chain and lubrication it. From what
you cite, this is not true.
Again, they say it's best to wipe the chain off so that it looks clean and
then put oil on it. It it's INCREDIBLY dirty they recommend diesel, since
no traces of it are left in the chain that will attack the new oil.

Their tests on machines showed that chains that were not cleaned last
longest.

My own experience: this Ultegra chain that I only use in bad weather is
wiped off after each ride in the rain. Using the Rohloff caliber to check
chain length, I found that it's still 50% away from needing to be replaced.

Greets, Derk

una momento,una problema-the hubs are attractive:
who will fix it and at what price? are repairs necessary? 'embedded'in
the maintainance schedule?
b. the commuter needs two-three rear wheels complete-brang one, remove
and replace and continue
butbutbut! now yawl have what several 8-speed hubs? an appendix rear
deray mit cable?
yes, virginia i know it's nickel and dime at $159
yet it does dampen my ardor. rolf.
and to deviate for a moment and ask a stupid question: why is it that
all this gear talk can't be directly translated into gear inchs or
CR/cluster number comparisons?

g.daniels wrote:
b. the commuter needs two-three rear wheels complete-brang one, remove
and replace and continue
butbutbut! now yawl have what several 8-speed hubs?

A spare singlespeed wheel will work as a backup.

and to deviate for a moment and ask a stupid question: why is it that
all this gear talk can't be directly translated into gear inchs or
CR/cluster number comparisons?

Sheldon's gear calculator will do that for you if you want. I'm sure you
can dig up the link at sheldonbrown.com.

--
Dave
dvt at psu dot edu

dvt wrote in message ...
g.daniels wrote:
b. the commuter needs two-three rear wheels complete-brang one, remove
and replace and continue
butbutbut! now yawl have what several 8-speed hubs?

A spare singlespeed wheel will work as a backup.

and to deviate for a moment and ask a stupid question: why is it that
all this gear talk can't be directly translated into gear inchs or
CR/cluster number comparisons?

Sheldon's gear calculator will do that for you if you want. I'm sure you
can dig up the link at sheldonbrown.com.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/r...pressions.html

At the middle of the above web page it gives the chainring and cog and
gear inches corresponding to the various Rohloff gears. The biggest
negative I see with this Rohloff hub is the 13.6% change between
gears. I do about 95% of my riding in the 60 to 80 gear inch range.
Roughly 42x14 through 42x19. Or 39x13 through 39X18 for people who
use 39 rings. My cassette goes 13-14-15-16-17-19. About 5 gear inch
jumps between gears. Ideal jumps between gears. I have 5 useful
gears in the heart of my gear range. Looking at the Rohloff gear
chart on the above web page, the jumps are 8 to 10 gear inches in this
ideal 60 to 80 gear inch range. The Rohloff gives 3 useful gears in
the heart of my gear range. I would never sacrifice 40% of my
favorite gears.

... why is it that
all this gear talk can't be directly translated into gear inchs or
CR/cluster number comparisons?

Sheldon's gear calculator will do that for you if you want. I'm sure you
can dig up the link at sheldonbrown.com.

http://sheldonbrown.com/gears/internal

Sheldon "Numbers" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| When I cannot sing my heart, |
| I can only speak my mind... |
| --John Lennon |
+-----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
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