How Do They Stay in Business?

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
ryancycles aka Dick Ryan wrote:
[...]
Anyway, I'd like to apologize to Bob for encouraging him to get
involved in the business those many years ago.

Did Bob Bryant enjoy his decade and a half in the magazine business?

Bob Bryant was no doubt happy as a lark running his newsletter. Why
shouldn't he have been. He was doing what he liked to do best in this world,
test riding recumbents. He was getting over $30. a year for a bimonthly that
remained amateurish right up to the end. To call RCN a magazine would be to
wildly exaggerate.

I am now subscribing to a computer magazine (PC World) that truly is a
magazine. It is not expensive and it comes out every month. I think Bob
Bryant was a good writer and editor, but he did not know how to run a
business. It may be that Dick Ryan was a good recumbent designer and builder
and that he also did not know how to run a business. Everyone thinks it is
easy to run a business, but it is not. If it were easy to run a business,
Tom Sherman would get his own engineering consulting business instead of
continuing to be a hired hand.

Thus spake Zarathustra.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Bob Bryant was no doubt happy as a lark running his newsletter. Why
shouldn't he have been. He was doing what he liked to do best in this world,
test riding recumbents. He was getting over $30. a year for a bimonthly that
remained amateurish right up to the end. To call RCN a magazine would be to
wildly exaggerate.

I am now subscribing to a computer magazine (PC World) that truly is a
magazine. It is not expensive and it comes out every month. I think Bob
Bryant was a good writer and editor, but he did not know how to run a
business. It may be that Dick Ryan was a good recumbent designer and builder
and that he also did not know how to run a business. Everyone thinks it is
easy to run a business, but it is not. If it were easy to run a business,
Tom Sherman would get his own engineering consulting business instead of
continuing to be a hired hand.

Although I certainly knew nothing about running a business when I
started, I did when I quit. Unlike many of the people in the business
when we closed the doors we had no debts. Does anyone remember "Fat
City Cycles?" they welded the first 10 bikes that I built. When they
went under they owed friends, relatives and the city of Somerville
hundreds of thousands of dollars. Or "Merlin Metal Works", the owner
of Merlin told me that over the course of their ten years in business
they lost over a million dollars. The major mistake I made was
thinking that because people who bought the product were so
enthusiastic about if that it woud be a no-brainer to get it into the
market place. I failed to understand the depth of the ignorance and in
many cases the outright hatred of something different by the bike shop
people. When I started in the business there were about 7000 bike
shops in the country. Many of them were mom and pop operations run by
people who were in the business because they loved bikes but who
hadn't a clue about business. Most of them have been weeded out and
now there are about 4000 shops. But as has been discussed here nothing
has changed at the employee level of the bike shop business. It is
very difficult to sell a product when the people who should be
profitting from it bad mouth it. There has never been a recumbent
company that had the money to do the serious marketing required to
popularize recumbents with the exception of Trek and Cannondale.
Unfortunately both companies had internal strife that resulted in no
support for the products. Recumbents should be main stream products.
The success of shops such as Hostel Shoppe and Wheel and Sprocket at
selling them should be proof enough that a market exists.

When it comes to magazines as far as I know most depend on advertising
for their income. I'm sure PC magazine has no shortage of advertisers
whereas RCN had trouble getting any at all!
Dick Ryan

"ryancycles" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan wrote:

Bob Bryant was no doubt happy as a lark running his newsletter. Why
shouldn't he have been. He was doing what he liked to do best in this
world,
test riding recumbents. He was getting over $30. a year for a bimonthly
that
remained amateurish right up to the end. To call RCN a magazine would be
to
wildly exaggerate.

I am now subscribing to a computer magazine (PC World) that truly is a
magazine. It is not expensive and it comes out every month. I think Bob
Bryant was a good writer and editor, but he did not know how to run a
business. It may be that Dick Ryan was a good recumbent designer and
builder
and that he also did not know how to run a business. Everyone thinks it
is
easy to run a business, but it is not. If it were easy to run a business,
Tom Sherman would get his own engineering consulting business instead of
continuing to be a hired hand.

Although I certainly knew nothing about running a business when I
started, I did when I quit. Unlike many of the people in the business
when we closed the doors we had no debts. Does anyone remember "Fat
City Cycles?" they welded the first 10 bikes that I built. When they
went under they owed friends, relatives and the city of Somerville
hundreds of thousands of dollars. Or "Merlin Metal Works", the owner
of Merlin told me that over the course of their ten years in business
they lost over a million dollars. The major mistake I made was
thinking that because people who bought the product were so
enthusiastic about if that it woud be a no-brainer to get it into the
market place. I failed to understand the depth of the ignorance and in
many cases the outright hatred of something different by the bike shop
people. When I started in the business there were about 7000 bike
shops in the country. Many of them were mom and pop operations run by
people who were in the business because they loved bikes but who
hadn't a clue about business. Most of them have been weeded out and
now there are about 4000 shops. But as has been discussed here nothing
has changed at the employee level of the bike shop business. It is
very difficult to sell a product when the people who should be
profitting from it bad mouth it. There has never been a recumbent
company that had the money to do the serious marketing required to
popularize recumbents with the exception of Trek and Cannondale.
Unfortunately both companies had internal strife that resulted in no
support for the products. Recumbents should be main stream products.
The success of shops such as Hostel Shoppe and Wheel and Sprocket at
selling them should be proof enough that a market exists.

Dick Ryan

I doubt that recumbents should be main stream products. I know dozens of
cyclists pretty much like myself and to a man they see no need for a
recumbent style of bicycle. I suspect it is a niche market only and nothing
can ever change that.

Hostel Shoppe truly knows how to sell recumbents, but everyone that enters
that shop is already sold on a recumbent or they wouldn't be there in the
first place.

When it comes to magazines as far as I know most depend on advertising
for their income. I'm sure PC magazine has no shortage of advertisers
whereas RCN had trouble getting any at all!

Yes, but getting advertisers is what running a magazine business is mostly
about, just as getting your recumbent to the niche market was what your
business was mostly about in the final analysis. There is no mass market for
recumbents and it is not the fault of the bike shop employees that there
isn't. Maybe it was your fault for not getting the price of your recumbent
more reasonable or did not that thought ever occur to you.

I note even now that most recumbents are greatly overpriced, most running to
$2000. or more. Where are the $200. recumbents? I don't think it takes many
smarts to bring out a $2000. recumbent, but it does take some smarts to
bring out a low-priced one. Let's face it, recumbents are for the idle rich
who have more money than brains.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:9NGdnW8ATcKKI4bVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

"ryancycles" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan wrote:

Bob Bryant was no doubt happy as a lark running his newsletter. Why
shouldn't he have been. He was doing what he liked to do best in this
world,
test riding recumbents. He was getting over $30. a year for a bimonthly
that
remained amateurish right up to the end. To call RCN a magazine would be
to
wildly exaggerate.

I am now subscribing to a computer magazine (PC World) that truly is a
magazine. It is not expensive and it comes out every month. I think Bob
Bryant was a good writer and editor, but he did not know how to run a
business. It may be that Dick Ryan was a good recumbent designer and
builder
and that he also did not know how to run a business. Everyone thinks it
is
easy to run a business, but it is not. If it were easy to run a
business,
Tom Sherman would get his own engineering consulting business instead of
continuing to be a hired hand.

Although I certainly knew nothing about running a business when I
started, I did when I quit. Unlike many of the people in the business
when we closed the doors we had no debts. Does anyone remember "Fat
City Cycles?" they welded the first 10 bikes that I built. When they
went under they owed friends, relatives and the city of Somerville
hundreds of thousands of dollars. Or "Merlin Metal Works", the owner
of Merlin told me that over the course of their ten years in business
they lost over a million dollars. The major mistake I made was
thinking that because people who bought the product were so
enthusiastic about if that it woud be a no-brainer to get it into the
market place. I failed to understand the depth of the ignorance and in
many cases the outright hatred of something different by the bike shop
people. When I started in the business there were about 7000 bike
shops in the country. Many of them were mom and pop operations run by
people who were in the business because they loved bikes but who
hadn't a clue about business. Most of them have been weeded out and
now there are about 4000 shops. But as has been discussed here nothing
has changed at the employee level of the bike shop business. It is
very difficult to sell a product when the people who should be
profitting from it bad mouth it. There has never been a recumbent
company that had the money to do the serious marketing required to
popularize recumbents with the exception of Trek and Cannondale.
Unfortunately both companies had internal strife that resulted in no
support for the products. Recumbents should be main stream products.
The success of shops such as Hostel Shoppe and Wheel and Sprocket at
selling them should be proof enough that a market exists.

Dick Ryan

I doubt that recumbents should be main stream products. I know dozens of
cyclists pretty much like myself and to a man they see no need for a
recumbent style of bicycle. I suspect it is a niche market only and
nothing can ever change that.

Hostel Shoppe truly knows how to sell recumbents, but everyone that enters
that shop is already sold on a recumbent or they wouldn't be there in the
first place.

When it comes to magazines as far as I know most depend on advertising
for their income. I'm sure PC magazine has no shortage of advertisers
whereas RCN had trouble getting any at all!

Yes, but getting advertisers is what running a magazine business is mostly
about, just as getting your recumbent to the niche market was what your
business was mostly about in the final analysis. There is no mass market
for recumbents and it is not the fault of the bike shop employees that
there isn't. Maybe it was your fault for not getting the price of your
recumbent more reasonable or did not that thought ever occur to you.

I note even now that most recumbents are greatly overpriced, most running
to $2000. or more. Where are the $200. recumbents? I don't think it takes
many smarts to bring out a $2000. recumbent, but it does take some smarts
to bring out a low-priced one. Let's face it, recumbents are for the idle
rich who have more money than brains.


I'd love to see the $200 Dolan recumbent, but I don't think I'd want to
spend much time in the $20.00 seat it would need to have.

Ed's pal Thomas Sherman maintains a stable of expensive recumbents so
perhaps he would be an exception to the idle rich class with more money than
brains type recumbent owner.

Having owned a business myself I know the learning experience can be an
expensive one. So congratulations to Dick Ryan for wrapping up the business
without debt. Plus he made bulletproof bikes that worked and are still out
there quietly cranking out the miles. There's a lot to be said for that.
Well done Mr. Ryan.

Wilson wrote:

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:9NGdnW8ATcKKI4bVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

[...]
I note even now that most recumbents are greatly overpriced, most
running to $2000. or more. Where are the $200. recumbents? I don't
think it takes many smarts to bring out a $2000. recumbent, but it
does take some smarts to bring out a low-priced one. Let's face it,
recumbents are for the idle rich who have more money than brains.


I'd love to see the $200 Dolan recumbent, but I don't think I'd want to
spend much time in the $20.00 seat it would need to have.

Ed Dolan's $200 recumbent would be of the same quality as a $100 Huffy
(i.e. sub ReBike). I will pass on that.

Ed's pal Thomas Sherman maintains a stable of expensive recumbents so
perhaps he would be an exception to the idle rich class with more money
than brains type recumbent owner.

Expensive? Both my RANS Rocket and my Wave to Tailwind conversion have a
total investment of less than $1200. Both Sunsets were less than $2K,
and Dragonflyer was just over $2K. Compared to a Ti-Rush or Bacchetta
Aero, none are expensive.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Wilson wrote:

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:9NGdnW8ATcKKI4bVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

[...]
I note even now that most recumbents are greatly overpriced, most
running to $2000. or more. Where are the $200. recumbents? I don't think
it takes many smarts to bring out a $2000. recumbent, but it does take
some smarts to bring out a low-priced one. Let's face it, recumbents are
for the idle rich who have more money than brains.


I'd love to see the $200 Dolan recumbent, but I don't think I'd want to
spend much time in the $20.00 seat it would need to have.

Ed Dolan's $200 recumbent would be of the same quality as a $100 Huffy
(i.e. sub ReBike). I will pass on that.

Ed's pal Thomas Sherman maintains a stable of expensive recumbents so
perhaps he would be an exception to the idle rich class with more money
than brains type recumbent owner.

Expensive? Both my RANS Rocket and my Wave to Tailwind conversion have a
total investment of less than $1200. Both Sunsets were less than $2K, and
Dragonflyer was just over $2K. Compared to a Ti-Rush or Bacchetta Aero,
none are expensive.

--
Well let's see. About $2,400 for the RANS (so we don't have to deal with
capitalization issues) bikes. You told me you think the lilac Sunset is
worth about $2,000 so I'd value the two of the around $4200. Then the
$2,000 Dragon Flyer (I thought you had two of them) brings the total up to
around $8,400. That's a bit more than what the so called normal people have
invested in bikes. But then it's no where near some of the BROL folks level
of investment in rare metals and composites. If I read Ed right he's saying
anyone who spends $2000 for a recumbent bike is in the idle rich with more
money than brains class. You meet Ed's membership requirements for that
class. Disclaimer: So do I - $2400 for a upgraded but used GR and $2200
for a used Longbikes/Ryan tandem.

Wilson wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Wilson wrote:

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:9NGdnW8ATcKKI4bVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

[...]
I note even now that most recumbents are greatly overpriced, most
running to $2000. or more. Where are the $200. recumbents? I don't
think it takes many smarts to bring out a $2000. recumbent, but it
does take some smarts to bring out a low-priced one. Let's face it,
recumbents are for the idle rich who have more money than brains.


I'd love to see the $200 Dolan recumbent, but I don't think I'd want
to spend much time in the $20.00 seat it would need to have.

Ed Dolan's $200 recumbent would be of the same quality as a $100 Huffy
(i.e. sub ReBike). I will pass on that.

Ed's pal Thomas Sherman maintains a stable of expensive recumbents so
perhaps he would be an exception to the idle rich class with more
money than brains type recumbent owner.

Expensive? Both my RANS Rocket and my Wave to Tailwind conversion have
a total investment of less than $1200. Both Sunsets were less than
$2K, and Dragonflyer was just over $2K. Compared to a Ti-Rush or
Bacchetta Aero, none are expensive.

--
Well let's see. About $2,400 for the RANS (so we don't have to deal
with capitalization issues) bikes. You told me you think the lilac
Sunset is worth about $2,000 so I'd value the two of the around $4200.
Then the $2,000 Dragon Flyer (I thought you had two of them) brings the
total up to around $8,400. That's a bit more than what the so called
normal people have invested in bikes.

That is about half the manufacturer and dealer profit on a luxury SUV,
about the same as a set of high end golf clubs, less than a country club
membership, the same as a top end phonographic cartridge, less than some
speaker cables, about the same as a luxury skiing weekend at a snooty
resort, or about 5 seconds of the US occupation of Iraq. Seems like an
excellent value to me.

But then it's no where near some
of the BROL folks level of investment in rare metals and composites. If
I read Ed right he's saying anyone who spends $2000 for a recumbent bike
is in the idle rich with more money than brains class. You meet Ed's
membership requirements for that class.

I worked about 75 hours last week. Does that make me idle?

Disclaimer: So do I - $2400
for a upgraded but used GR and $2200 for a used Longbikes/Ryan tandem.

Those prices appear to be reasonable.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
The weather is here, wish you were beautiful

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Wilson wrote:

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Wilson wrote:
Ed's pal Thomas Sherman maintains a stable of expensive recumbents so
perhaps he would be an exception to the idle rich class with more money
than brains type recumbent owner.

Expensive? Both my RANS Rocket and my Wave to Tailwind conversion have a
total investment of less than $1200. Both Sunsets were less than $2K,
and Dragonflyer was just over $2K. Compared to a Ti-Rush or Bacchetta
Aero, none are expensive.

--
Well let's see. About $2,400 for the RANS (so we don't have to deal with
capitalization issues) bikes. You told me you think the lilac Sunset is
worth about $2,000 so I'd value the two of the around $4200. Then the
$2,000 Dragon Flyer (I thought you had two of them) brings the total up
to around $8,400. That's a bit more than what the so called normal
people have invested in bikes.

That is about half the manufacturer and dealer profit on a luxury SUV,
about the same as a set of high end golf clubs, less than a country club
membership, the same as a top end phonographic cartridge, less than some
speaker cables, about the same as a luxury skiing weekend at a snooty
resort, or about 5 seconds of the US occupation of Iraq. Seems like an
excellent value to me.


If I had to choose I'd sure pick $8400 of recumbant bikes over a phono
cartridge or speaker cables. Concerning Iraq it would depend on which 5
seconds you are referring to. Some 5 seconds over there would certainly be
worth $8400 to me.




But then it's no where near some of the BROL folks level of investment in
rare metals and composites. If I read Ed right he's saying anyone who
spends $2000 for a recumbent bike is in the idle rich with more money
than brains class. You meet Ed's membership requirements for that class.

I worked about 75 hours last week. Does that make me idle?


You'll have to take that up with Ed.

For the most of my life I've avoided those kinds of hours. Much of the time
I've been paid based on specific results and I tried to get the job done
without investing those kinds of hours. If I did get in that situation I
would take steps to see it didn't happen again. I realize I've lived
something of a charmed life in that regard plus I've never been
involuntarily out of work for even one day.

"Wilson" wrote in message
...

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:9NGdnW8ATcKKI4bVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

"ryancycles" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan wrote:

Bob Bryant was no doubt happy as a lark running his newsletter. Why
shouldn't he have been. He was doing what he liked to do best in this
world,
test riding recumbents. He was getting over $30. a year for a bimonthly
that
remained amateurish right up to the end. To call RCN a magazine would
be to
wildly exaggerate.

I am now subscribing to a computer magazine (PC World) that truly is a
magazine. It is not expensive and it comes out every month. I think Bob
Bryant was a good writer and editor, but he did not know how to run a
business. It may be that Dick Ryan was a good recumbent designer and
builder
and that he also did not know how to run a business. Everyone thinks it
is
easy to run a business, but it is not. If it were easy to run a
business,
Tom Sherman would get his own engineering consulting business instead
of
continuing to be a hired hand.

Although I certainly knew nothing about running a business when I
started, I did when I quit. Unlike many of the people in the business
when we closed the doors we had no debts. Does anyone remember "Fat
City Cycles?" they welded the first 10 bikes that I built. When they
went under they owed friends, relatives and the city of Somerville
hundreds of thousands of dollars. Or "Merlin Metal Works", the owner
of Merlin told me that over the course of their ten years in business
they lost over a million dollars. The major mistake I made was
thinking that because people who bought the product were so
enthusiastic about if that it woud be a no-brainer to get it into the
market place. I failed to understand the depth of the ignorance and in
many cases the outright hatred of something different by the bike shop
people. When I started in the business there were about 7000 bike
shops in the country. Many of them were mom and pop operations run by
people who were in the business because they loved bikes but who
hadn't a clue about business. Most of them have been weeded out and
now there are about 4000 shops. But as has been discussed here nothing
has changed at the employee level of the bike shop business. It is
very difficult to sell a product when the people who should be
profitting from it bad mouth it. There has never been a recumbent
company that had the money to do the serious marketing required to
popularize recumbents with the exception of Trek and Cannondale.
Unfortunately both companies had internal strife that resulted in no
support for the products. Recumbents should be main stream products.
The success of shops such as Hostel Shoppe and Wheel and Sprocket at
selling them should be proof enough that a market exists.

Dick Ryan

I doubt that recumbents should be main stream products. I know dozens of
cyclists pretty much like myself and to a man they see no need for a
recumbent style of bicycle. I suspect it is a niche market only and
nothing can ever change that.

Hostel Shoppe truly knows how to sell recumbents, but everyone that
enters that shop is already sold on a recumbent or they wouldn't be there
in the first place.

When it comes to magazines as far as I know most depend on advertising
for their income. I'm sure PC magazine has no shortage of advertisers
whereas RCN had trouble getting any at all!

Yes, but getting advertisers is what running a magazine business is
mostly about, just as getting your recumbent to the niche market was what
your business was mostly about in the final analysis. There is no mass
market for recumbents and it is not the fault of the bike shop employees
that there isn't. Maybe it was your fault for not getting the price of
your recumbent more reasonable or did not that thought ever occur to you.

I note even now that most recumbents are greatly overpriced, most running
to $2000. or more. Where are the $200. recumbents? I don't think it takes
many smarts to bring out a $2000. recumbent, but it does take some smarts
to bring out a low-priced one. Let's face it, recumbents are for the idle
rich who have more money than brains.


I'd love to see the $200 Dolan recumbent, but I don't think I'd want to
spend much time in the $20.00 seat it would need to have.

It would take someone far smarter than me to do that, but Mr. Ryan was
saying that he thought recumbents should be a mass market product like kids
bicycles for instance. In order for that to happen, you have got to get the
price down, way down. It has nothing to do with bike shop employees and
their attitudes.

Ed's pal Thomas Sherman maintains a stable of expensive recumbents so
perhaps he would be an exception to the idle rich class with more money
than brains type recumbent owner.

Mr. Sherman is exhibit No. 1 along with me.

Having owned a business myself I know the learning experience can be an
expensive one. So congratulations to Dick Ryan for wrapping up the
business without debt. Plus he made bulletproof bikes that worked and are
still out there quietly cranking out the miles. There's a lot to be said
for that. Well done Mr. Ryan.

I too am appreciative of what Dick Ryan has accomplished in the world of
recumbency, but I just wish he had been able to get the price of his bike
out of the stratosphere. Recumbents are more expensive now than ever. Is
Hostel Shoppe carrying a single recumbent for less than $1000.? I rest my
case.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman" wrote in message
...
Wilson wrote:

"Edward Dolan" wrote in message
news:9NGdnW8ATcKKI4bVnZ2dnUVZ_gWdnZ2d@prairiewave. com...

[...]
I note even now that most recumbents are greatly overpriced, most
running to $2000. or more. Where are the $200. recumbents? I don't think
it takes many smarts to bring out a $2000. recumbent, but it does take
some smarts to bring out a low-priced one. Let's face it, recumbents are
for the idle rich who have more money than brains.


I'd love to see the $200 Dolan recumbent, but I don't think I'd want to
spend much time in the $20.00 seat it would need to have.

Ed Dolan's $200 recumbent would be of the same quality as a $100 Huffy
(i.e. sub ReBike). I will pass on that.

What would be wrong with that? The ReBike was a badly designed recumbent and
way too heavy. We will never know if a recumbent is a mass market product or
not until we get one that is reasonably priced and well designed and sold
through stores like Wal-Mart. I believe that a recumbent like the Bacchetta
Agio could be such a bike minus a thousand dollars off of its current price.

Ed's pal Thomas Sherman maintains a stable of expensive recumbents so
perhaps he would be an exception to the idle rich class with more money
than brains type recumbent owner.

Expensive? Both my RANS Rocket and my Wave to Tailwind conversion have a
total investment of less than $1200. Both Sunsets were less than $2K, and
Dragonflyer was just over $2K. Compared to a Ti-Rush or Bacchetta Aero,
none are expensive.

The above bikes are all expensive and would be thought so by most of mankind
if they were dumb enough to even consider such bikes. Mr. Sherman lost touch
with the real world ages ago. Bicycles are essentially toys, whether for
kids or for adults. Mr. Sherman likes expensive toys, but that is because he
is not married with kids to support.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota