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  #51  
Old November 15th 18, 07:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Posts: 1,747
Default Chain Lube?

Frank Krygowski writes:

On 11/15/2018 11:41 AM, Radey Shouman wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

On 11/14/2018 9:24 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:03:57 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 11/14/2018 6:30 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I'm actually afraid to go into Clever Cycles while wearing lycra
for fear that I will be openly derided or hustled into the back
room for a wool intervention -- and then forced to ride a Brompton
with a dyno hub!

Ah, Jay, you have so much to learn!

This is a legitimate
fear. https://s2-ssl.dmcdn.net/iYGwF/x1080-Nm1.jpg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuKIArmEjJM Tell me that woman has
not been body-snatched by the Brompton pod people.

I think Bromptons are really cool. I remember a proud Brompton owner
in Helsinki telling me it changed his life. It allowed him to take the
train into the city, then easily get to work without a car. And he
demonstrated the Brompton's amazing folding, both super-quick and
extremely compact.

Nobody in his or her right mind uses a rain cape except maybe the
tweed people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fr6wY9ifYmE.

Hey, how did they sneak a video of me into YouTube?? ;-)

There was a Yehuda Moon comic I can't find now. He chanced upon a
bunch of people dressed in wool sport coats, wool caps, riding
antique-looking bikes. Several told him things like "Lovely costume,
old chap!" His response was something like : "What?? There's a tweed
ride??"


http://rebelmetropolis.org/wp-conten...011-04-306.gif


Ah! Thanks!

(How did you find it?)


Google image search for yehuda moon tweed ride. Search on the site
itself got me nowhere.

--
Ads
  #52  
Old November 15th 18, 07:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
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Posts: 1,563
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/14/18 6:59 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

snip

I have a couple of really old WRIGHTS all leather saddles and they
are very comfortable and only require a bit of care. I keep the
undersides well coated with genuine Dubbin and that seems to work
wonders keeping them from soaking up water from wet roads. Of course
fenders also go a very long way to keeping water off the underside of
any saddle. However, some bicycles just don't have room for fenders.


I have a Brookes B17 which is 37 years old and going strong. A shower
cap for when it's parked in the rain, a bit of proofhide if I'm feeling
flush, or boot polish when I'm not.

  #53  
Old November 15th 18, 07:57 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tosspot[_3_]
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Posts: 1,563
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/15/18 12:49 AM, news18 wrote:
On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 12:37:42 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

BTW, one thing I noticed during our recent trip to Europe: Europeans
seem to use leather saddles far more than Americans do.


Brands?


The Krauts absolutely love those springy Brooks Flyer things, you see
loads of them on commuters.

I'm not saying leather was the majority, but here in America it's
unusual for me to see a leather saddle on a utility bike or even an
enthusiast's bike. Especially in Basel, Switzerland and in Amsterdam, I
was spotting them all the time. And Amsterdam is not a very dry place.


IME, leather dressing. Mostly underneath, but a light wipe over the top
helps.


  #54  
Old November 15th 18, 10:25 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default Chain Lube?

On Wed, 14 Nov 2018 05:50:35 +0700, John B. slocomb
wrote:

I guess that you didn't read that very well. I said "a mix of
petroleum lubricants and a light carrier which evaporated leaving a
greasy residue". Which part of "evaporated leaving a greasy residue"
did you miss.


I missed the part that referred back to your original suggestion of
using Dow Molykote D-321 R Dry Film lubricant. However, I prefer to
debate the current point of contention: Will a solvent carrier
transport grease into a chain link (without boiling in oil or pressure
injection)?

As for the rest of your argument, I performed an actual experiment,
rather then just imagining a result. I took an older chain, cleaned it
in solvent with a final wash in MEK, allowed it to dry and then
lubricated it with the above mentioned lube, allowed that to dry and
then, using a chain tool, disassembled several links and yes, the lub
had penetrated the chain and was evident in the rollers and on the
pins. I subsequently did the same thing using my chain wax formula -
much the same as James's mix - and the same thing happened. The hot
wax did penetrate the links


I did much the same thing, but not as neatly as your method. When I
tried it, I ran into a problem. The space between the side plates and
the sleeve accumulated a fair amount of oil. When I extracted the
pins, the would slid THROUGH this accumulation of oil and coat the
pin. Inspection of the pin and sleeve appeared to show that they were
coated with oil (using a UV die marker). However, I couldn't be sure
if it was originally transported by solvent evaporation, capillary
action, or just smeared onto the parts during pin extraction.

I just conjured a method that I think will remove the smearing problem
from the test. Remove one side plate from a length of chain leaving
two pins and one side plate. Remove all oil with solvent. We don't
have MEK in Calif thanks to the VoC ban, so I guess it will paint
thinner or something else. Make sure that the pins and plate will
initially fall out with no oil and when inverted. The pins may need
some tweaking to insure that they're both centered in the sleeves.

Presumably, if there's oil all over the pins and sleeves, the
viscosity of the oil cause the pins and plate to take much longer to
fall out when inverted. I haven't worked out a plan yet to eliminate
the smearing problem, but I think just wiping the area around the
missing side plate, and just inverting the assembly will be
sufficient.

I'll be running this test in about a week. If you could disclose the
lube and solvent mix that you used, I will try to use the same stuff.
Otherwise, something cheap that evaporates easily, a suitable
petroleum grease, and a UV tracer should be adequate for now. I can
try the wax test later.

Molykote® D-321 R Anti-Friction Coating
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ny6JwtnDyag (1:55)
Looks like it was designed for dusty environments.

What I would like to try is a chain where the pin or sleeve have a
spiral groove cut along its length to "pump" oil through the bearing.
Just keep adding oil to lubricate. When it's time to clean the chain,
just remove the chain, reverse the direction of rotation, and the
accumulated grease and crud will be pushed out the direction it
arrived.


Why bother? A constant drip chain oiler will keep the chain lubricated
and clean without going to all sorts of complicated rigmarole.


The idea was to help clear the chain from old oil and help pump fresh
oil into the pin and sleeve area. I too have my doubts that it would
be worthwhile doing, but I thought it might be interesting to try.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #55  
Old November 16th 18, 12:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
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Posts: 1,131
Default Chain Lube?

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:56:53 -0800, jbeattie wrote:

On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:15:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


Really, you can't be safe without a reflective chain on your bike. Why,
if only ONE life can be saved...!


Riders in the town of Ikea, Sweden, were given reflective chains, and
the number of single-bike accidents dropped by 23.7% When combined
with hoop earrings and multi-color clown wigs, the rate dropped by 26.8%


Chuckle.

I fitted a pair of large circular strips offset inside the spokes on each
wheel. Sort of a figure 8 arrangement. Antedotal evidence was that they
are great for being seen from the side in darker locations. The vehicle
light catches the pulsating flashes and draws drivers attention.

On another tract, a few decades ago, I enquired about the reflective
paint they used on road signs. It apparently contains beads and I suspect
the "proprietary process" was just thermal setting like powder coating.
My plan was a white frame painted in the stuff. Now, if you can get
"coloured/colored" beads, it would be better for catching cager attention.

That is, until like hi-vis vests and gear and everyone is wearing them
and they just become bleah.
  #56  
Old November 16th 18, 12:41 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/15/2018 5:38 PM, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:56:53 -0800, jbeattie wrote:

On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:15:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


Really, you can't be safe without a reflective chain on your bike. Why,
if only ONE life can be saved...!


Riders in the town of Ikea, Sweden, were given reflective chains, and
the number of single-bike accidents dropped by 23.7% When combined
with hoop earrings and multi-color clown wigs, the rate dropped by 26.8%


Chuckle.

I fitted a pair of large circular strips offset inside the spokes on each
wheel. Sort of a figure 8 arrangement. Antedotal evidence was that they
are great for being seen from the side in darker locations. The vehicle
light catches the pulsating flashes and draws drivers attention.

On another tract, a few decades ago, I enquired about the reflective
paint they used on road signs. It apparently contains beads and I suspect
the "proprietary process" was just thermal setting like powder coating.
My plan was a white frame painted in the stuff. Now, if you can get
"coloured/colored" beads, it would be better for catching cager attention.

That is, until like hi-vis vests and gear and everyone is wearing them
and they just become bleah.



https://www.reflectivebeads.com/


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #57  
Old November 16th 18, 01:45 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
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Posts: 853
Default Chain Lube?

AMuzi wrote:
On 11/15/2018 5:38 PM, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:56:53 -0800, jbeattie wrote:

On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:15:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


Really, you can't be safe without a reflective chain on your bike. Why,
if only ONE life can be saved...!


Riders in the town of Ikea, Sweden, were given reflective chains, and
the number of single-bike accidents dropped by 23.7% When combined
with hoop earrings and multi-color clown wigs, the rate dropped by 26.8%


Chuckle.

I fitted a pair of large circular strips offset inside the spokes on each
wheel. Sort of a figure 8 arrangement. Antedotal evidence was that they
are great for being seen from the side in darker locations. The vehicle
light catches the pulsating flashes and draws drivers attention.

On another tract, a few decades ago, I enquired about the reflective
paint they used on road signs. It apparently contains beads and I suspect
the "proprietary process" was just thermal setting like powder coating.
My plan was a white frame painted in the stuff. Now, if you can get
"coloured/colored" beads, it would be better for catching cager attention.

That is, until like hi-vis vests and gear and everyone is wearing them
and they just become bleah.



https://www.reflectivebeads.com/


The downside is that as soon as you clearcoat it, the retroreflectivity
just goes to ****, so you have to be happy with a matte frame.

  #58  
Old November 16th 18, 03:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Chain Lube?

On 11/15/2018 6:38 PM, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 06:56:53 -0800, jbeattie wrote:

On Wednesday, November 14, 2018 at 6:15:40 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


Really, you can't be safe without a reflective chain on your bike. Why,
if only ONE life can be saved...!


Riders in the town of Ikea, Sweden, were given reflective chains, and
the number of single-bike accidents dropped by 23.7% When combined
with hoop earrings and multi-color clown wigs, the rate dropped by 26.8%


Chuckle.

I fitted a pair of large circular strips offset inside the spokes on each
wheel. Sort of a figure 8 arrangement. Antedotal evidence was that they
are great for being seen from the side in darker locations. The vehicle
light catches the pulsating flashes and draws drivers attention.

On another tract, a few decades ago, I enquired about the reflective
paint they used on road signs. It apparently contains beads and I suspect
the "proprietary process" was just thermal setting like powder coating.
My plan was a white frame painted in the stuff. Now, if you can get
"coloured/colored" beads, it would be better for catching cager attention.

That is, until like hi-vis vests and gear and everyone is wearing them
and they just become bleah.


With all due respect, these sorts of attempts at weird (AKA
"innovative") conspicuity measures seem a bit silly to me.

There seems to be a constant stream of lighting or reflector gimmicks.
I've seen ads or Kickstarter pages for bike turn signals ("invented"
roughly once in two years, it seems), spoke lights, reflective tire
sidewalls, laser "bike lane" stripes fore and aft, strobe lights fore
and aft, LED coated jackets, and much more.

ISTM side visibility isn't much of an issue. Assuming you're not running
traffic lights or stop signs, a car won't be hitting you from that
direction. And even if that situation somehow arose, you wouldn't be in
their line of vision or (for reflectors) their headlights long enough to
make a difference. The only exception is waiting first in line at a red
light, if you're worried about left turners cutting the corner. That can
be fixed by waiting a little further back, and/or turning your headlight
toward the right.

And ISTM that you don't need gimmicks front and rear. At night, you do
need a headlight and taillight. But as I've reported often, every
headlight I've used, even the historic (AKA dim) ones, have caused
motorists to wait far longer than they would in daylight. To the rear,
being seen from a block away is plenty, and for that a 20 year old
blinkie is visible enough.

Perhaps the most valuable addition to that minimum is reflectors on the
pedals or the crank tips. That left-right bionic motion is very
attention-getting, since we're biologically wired to notice it.

Based on that, the only invention I'd consider adding would be lights on
pedal tips - white to the front and red to the rear. Sort of like the
ancient white platic leg lights, but tiny and on the bike. But I feel no
need to build or search for those. I've done quite a bit of testing,
observing my own bike being ridden by others and observing others' bikes
at night. That and my considerable night riding has proven to me that
you don't need heroic measures to be safe at night - or in fact, to be
more conspicuous at night than in daylight.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #59  
Old November 16th 18, 09:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
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Posts: 1,131
Default Chain Lube?

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 21:09:06 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On 11/15/2018 6:38 PM, news18 wrote:

I fitted a pair of large circular strips offset inside the spokes on
each wheel. Sort of a figure 8 arrangement. Antedotal evidence was that
they are great for being seen from the side in darker locations. The
vehicle light catches the pulsating flashes and draws drivers
attention.

On another tract, a few decades ago, I enquired about the reflective
paint they used on road signs. It apparently contains beads and I
suspect the "proprietary process" was just thermal setting like powder
coating. My plan was a white frame painted in the stuff. Now, if you
can get "coloured/colored" beads, it would be better for catching cager
attention.

That is, until like hi-vis vests and gear and everyone is wearing them
and they just become bleah.


With all due respect, these sorts of attempts at weird (AKA
"innovative") conspicuity measures seem a bit silly to me.


Frankly, when I started, side reflectors were not a legal requirement
and these were just one of the basic reflectors for spokes. I just
decided to double them up and off set in a test. I kept them as they were
effective enough for people I didn't know and who were not bicycle riders
to comment to other people about and the comments come back yo me. So
I've kept them over the decades,

There seems to be a constant stream of lighting or reflector gimmicks.


Yep, always good for a laugh.

ISTM side visibility isn't much of an issue. Assuming you're not running
traffic lights or stop signs, a car won't be hitting you from that
direction.


Horses for courses. Almost completely wasted whilst touring, but riding
around the city, suburbs and towns. I'll take anything that lets a dopey
cager know that I'm there. I have no desire to become a hood ornament.

I'm happy to give some one a laugh as a small fee for improved safety.

I totally disagree that cars wont hit a bicycle rider from the side, even
when they are doing everything legally. These days more so with cagers m
spending tine on their mobile phones, etc whilst claiming they are
driving safely.

And even if that situation somehow arose, you wouldn't be in
their line of vision or (for reflectors) their headlights long enough to
make a difference.


A split second may help and the feedback I've received was that these do
stand out from a distance(blocks away).

The only exception is waiting first in line at a red
light, if you're worried about left turners cutting the corner. That can
be fixed by waiting a little further back, and/or turning your headlight
toward the right.

And ISTM that you don't need gimmicks front and rear. At night, you do
need a headlight and taillight. But as I've reported often, every
headlight I've used, even the historic (AKA dim) ones, have caused
motorists to wait far longer than they would in daylight. To the rear,
being seen from a block away is plenty, and for that a 20 year old
blinkie is visible enough.


Now that is a gimmick that came after my arrangement and even your
blinkie would't stand out on some of the routes I've had to use. sometime
you just can't avoid choke points on your route and having to shared with
end of day driver commuters can be risky.


Perhaps the most valuable addition to that minimum is reflectors on the
pedals or the crank tips. That left-right bionic motion is very
attention-getting, since we're biologically wired to notice it.


Which is what these provide. Just bigger and far more easily noticed.
Pedal reflectors were alway a front//back device. I'm yet to mount
anything on the sides of my pedals.

Based on that, the only invention I'd consider adding would be lights on
pedal tips - white to the front and red to the rear. Sort of like the
ancient white platic leg lights, but tiny and on the bike. But I feel no
need to build or search for those. I've done quite a bit of testing,
observing my own bike being ridden by others and observing others' bikes
at night. That and my considerable night riding has proven to me that
you don't need heroic measures to be safe at night - or in fact, to be
more conspicuous at night than in daylight.


Forty years ago, I came to the conclusion that any bicycle light pailled
into insignificance compared to the power of car lights and that the best
defence was to use reflectors that directed that light from the head
light beam right back at them.

That conclusion was reached from looking closely at a series of
photographs taken on a club ride around the docks and back streets.
Reflectors ruled when it came to standing out when car lights were around.

There may be some "modern" bicycle lights that compete with car beams,
but given all the useless junk on sale in the past, I'll stick with my
home built stuff. If it is good enough to fool plod that they think they
are goig to catch an illegal motor bike rider, then it is good enogh to
comepte with all that stuff and it gives me a choice of spot, spread and
low down lightining without being tied into some proprietary system.

As always, YMMV.


  #60  
Old November 16th 18, 09:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Chain Lube?

On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 12:01:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 11/15/2018 9:45 AM, sms wrote:
On 11/14/2018 10:36 AM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

I've used both -- and think they suck.* Hot wax is too much work as
are leather saddles in a wet environment.* My old Ideal 90 was growing
mold-fur, and my Brooks was never comfortable. I was always a plastic
saddle guy.

I have tried hot was. I came to the same conclusion as all the experts:

-----
"When wax was popular, we'd get customers coming in all the time
complaining about shifting problems on their bikes. Removed the wax and
lubed with conventional stuff and voila, shifting back to normal." Mike
Jacoubowsky, co-owner of Chain Reaction Bicycles.

"Wax is not mobile and cannot return to a location from which it has
been removed by rotation of one part on another." Jobst Brandt, author
of The Bicycle Wheel

"If you use dry lube or wax, follow product directions and use it often.
In some cases, dry lube should be used for every ride. It wears off very
quickly and no new lube can flow to the critical wear areas." Craig
Metalcraft, manufacturer of Super Link III.

"Downsides of the wax approach include the fact that it is a great deal
of trouble, and that wax is probably not as good a lubricant as oil or
grease." Sheldon Brown


Yawn. Typical Scharf. No data, just decades-old speculation and opinions.

Links to relevant data have been given here many times. Sharf (AKA
"sms") refuses to read them.

For example, from
https://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/ar...iciency-35694/

"Smith has used that data to develop his own 'UltraFast' chain, which is
essentially the fastest chain he's tested (Shimano's Dura-Ace CN-7901)
ultrasonically cleaned and treated with a blend of paraffin wax, pure
PTFE, and molybdenum sulfide lubricants. This recipe produces, Smith
says, provides the lowest consistently measureable frictional losses of
everything he’s tested."

Other sources give similar results for pure paraffin wax, and show that
chain life is longest with a paraffin wax based lubricant.

What I have NOT tried is wax mixed with oil or other wet lube. I suspect
that this would work because the oil is mobile, but leaving out the wax
would make it work as well.


IME, the only downside of pure paraffin is that it squeaks after rain.
It actually keeps the drivetrain cleaner than wax plus a bit of oil. But
the addition of maybe 5% oil removes the squeak-after-rain problem, and
it still keeps the chain, cogs, chainwheels and bike FAR cleaner than
any ordinary oil lubricant.

BTW, this is why the "cleaning the bike" thread is uninteresting to me.
My bikes are rarely dirty enough to need attention. When I clean them,
I'm usually just wiping off road dust. I do that with a paper towel
soaked in Pledge spray-on wax.


I really wonder about the reference to difficult shifting as I've used
wax on bikes that had (1) down tube friction shifters, (2) Shimano
Brifters, and (3) both indexed and friction bar end shifters, and
frankly I never noticed any difficulties in shifting with any shifter
system.

But in thinking about it, I would suggest that if it did make shifting
difficult it is probably because the wax, having penetrated the links
and rollers of the chain, that the chain is now stiffer, more rigid,
then a chain that is not wax lubricated.


--

Cheers,

John B.
 




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