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#21
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sep 5, 4:53 pm, (Floyd L. Davidson) wrote:
wrote: Mike, your ignorance of wildlife and factless statements become irritating. True. While black bear attacks on humans are rather rare, as a carnivore, they can and do attack humans from time to time. The probability of an attack is measured in the 1 to 400 million or more (given the number of recreational visitor days a year in black bear country). I assume all of that is correct. I don't see it as significant, one way or another. If you are in bear country... *do* be concerned. The motivation for the attack can range from protecting cubs (and yes I would suggest this is one of the more common reasons), That is common _only_ for brown bears. The black bear incident reports I've read show a high proportion of attacks were by sows with cubs. It may not be "common" in absolute numbers, but seem to be common as far as (generally rare) black bear attacks go. to being startled or surprised by human (usually hikers on a trail) appearing in their path, Again, _only_ for brown bears. Not being startled seems to be important. I love hearing the stories of bear researchers monitoring black bears with spotting scopes. The one story that was intriguing was about hikers on the trail. The bears were extremely aware of the humans in the area (moved away accordingly), but the hikers had no idea there were bears. |
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#22
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
How do you know it was defending cubs? The article only says "may have been", and that there was a report of a bear with two cubs. No guarantee it was the same bear as "bears are not uncommon at the park". There you go leaping to conclusions again, reaffirming your status as the primo number one twit-extraordinaire on usenet. It's a well-known fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend their cubs. Do you think it was offended by the color of his outfit?! -- You're joking, right? Well known fact? I've rarely heard such a sweeping and baseless statement, but I should expect it from you. Black bears are more unpredictable than grizzlies, and more likely to attack without provocation. That is not to say there was no provocation in this incident, intentional or otherwise. To say "It's a well-known fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend their cubs." is absolute stupidity and is a classic display of your near complete ignorance. I notice that you can't given even ONE other reason. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) I mistakenly believed you read the other posts indicating the probability that the dogs were a provocation, although bears do not always need provocation. Silly me, thinking that you are capable of thinking. Back to the original response. Are you actually serious about the "It's a well-known fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend their cubs." crap? Was that simply grasping at straws, snatched from the air, made or otherwise dreamed up? Well, it doesn't really matter since you have zero credibility in any event. |
#23
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
"Ist-e Mundus, Furia bundus" writes:
other posters quotes snipped Are you actually serious about the "It's a well-known fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend their cubs." crap? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America_by_dec ade: " It should be noted that black bear biologists consider black bear attacks as very rare. Fewer people are killed by black bears than slip and fall accidents, traffic accidents and lightning." One black-bear related injury that occurred in Yosemite was due to some guy hanging his food from the limb of a tree and pitching a tent right below it. A bear cub went out on the limb to try to get it, fell off, and landed on the guy, breaking some ribs. Some incidents may have been caused by keeping food in the tent. The bear might have been after the food with the attack being incidental or the result of being surprised. That doesn't, of course, mean that unprovoked attacks by black bears are impossible, but they are very rare occurrences. -- My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB |
#24
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:05:35 -0700, y_p_w wrote:
On Sep 4, 9:19 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:46:48 wrote: On Sep 4, 2:29 pm, Bruce Jensen wrote: On Sep 4, 1:46 wrote: WTF? Tell that to the family in Utah whose 11 year old was dragged out of their tent and killed in June by a male black bear. Male black bears aren't known for being protective of their cubs. Some are known to attack cubs, which could include their own young. Yeah, but we are not at this point talking specfiically about a male or female bear. There is a reasonable chance that the bear in question was a female with cubs, based on other testimony. At the very least, it was surprised. The Utah incident above also involved some questionable human-food handling, IIRC. Sure. However - the attack was for a different reason than a black bear sow defending its cubs. I don't know that that was an "attack". It was probably simply following the smell of food. Dragging an 11 year old 400 yards from a tent was an attack. BS. He was taking what he thought was food to his picnic area. If he wanted to "attack" the kid, there would be no need to move him. Possibly one that could have been avoided, but still an attack. Bears have been known to claw/bite people if they think they can get food. I notice that you haven't offered any other reason for a black bear to attack a human, even though you say there are such reasons. Are you freaking kidding me? They'll attack when startled. I've read of numerous incidents where someone was clawed or bitten when a bear was surprised by a person while it was going through garbage/food. My favorite stories are about idiots feeding bears that just turned on them. Some attacks have been seemly random, like the Cherokee National Forest mauling in 2006. That was just a family on the trail, attacked by a male bear. It was also exceedingly rare. http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_87516.asp I posted this earlier, but I guess it's not valid if it doesn't validate your ill-advised statements: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/be...incidents.html "Los Angeles County, July 2003 - A male hiker was knocked down by a bear at a remote campsite along the Pacific Crest Trail in the Angeles National Forest. The hiker had just reached the camp, which was empty, dropped his pack on a picnic table, and was looking for a place to hang his food. As he walked back toward the pack, he heard a noise behind him. As he turned he was knocked to the ground by a bear. After standing over him for a few seconds, the bear grabbed the backpack and began dragging it off. The man shouted at the bear and threw rocks until the bear finally retreated without the backpack. The hiker received only minor bruises and was not seriously hurt. Los Angeles County, July 2001 - A woman was bitten on the arm by a bear at a county-run tree farm near La Verne. The bear, which was earlier spotted climbing on a nearby trash can, reportedly walked up to the woman while she was seated at a picnic table and bit her on the arm. The woman was treated at a hospital for puncture wounds. The bear was later shot and killed by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies. The bear weighed approximately 85 pounds and was estimated at one to two years of age. Trinity County, May 1986 - A 35-year old man was attacked at around 3 a.m. while camping in a tent in the Trinity Alps Wilderness. The victim felt that he was caught in the middle of a fight between two boars when one bear attacked him in his tent. The bear left when the victim hit the bear with a tentpole. Two bears then returned and acted aggressively toward each another before they finally left. The victim sustained several puncture wounds to his shoulder and lacerations to the back of his head. Siskiyou County, September 1986 - A long-time resident of a small rural community was injured while feeding a bear at his residence. The victim had been feeding bears at this location for more than 30 years." So that's just incidental to feeding (getting competitors for the food out of the way). It's not an "attack" on a person. -- I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8 years fighting auto dependence and road construction.) Please don't put a cell phone next to any part of your body that you are fond of! http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande |
#26
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sep 6, 8:33 am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:05:35 -0700, y_p_w wrote: On Sep 4, 9:19 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote: On Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:46:48 wrote: On Sep 4, 2:29 pm, Bruce Jensen wrote: On Sep 4, 1:46 wrote: WTF? Tell that to the family in Utah whose 11 year old was dragged out of their tent and killed in June by a male black bear. Male black bears aren't known for being protective of their cubs. Some are known to attack cubs, which could include their own young. Yeah, but we are not at this point talking specfiically about a male or female bear. There is a reasonable chance that the bear in question was a female with cubs, based on other testimony. At the very least, it was surprised. The Utah incident above also involved some questionable human-food handling, IIRC. Sure. However - the attack was for a different reason than a black bear sow defending its cubs. I don't know that that was an "attack". It was probably simply following the smell of food. Dragging an 11 year old 400 yards from a tent was an attack. BS. He was taking what he thought was food to his picnic area. If he wanted to "attack" the kid, there would be no need to move him. Possibly one that could have been avoided, but still an attack. Bears have been known to claw/bite people if they think they can get food. I notice that you haven't offered any other reason for a black bear to attack a human, even though you say there are such reasons. Are you freaking kidding me? They'll attack when startled. I've read of numerous incidents where someone was clawed or bitten when a bear was surprised by a person while it was going through garbage/food. My favorite stories are about idiots feeding bears that just turned on them. Some attacks have been seemly random, like the Cherokee National Forest mauling in 2006. That was just a family on the trail, attacked by a male bear. It was also exceedingly rare. http://www.chattanoogan.com/articles/article_87516.asp I posted this earlier, but I guess it's not valid if it doesn't validate your ill-advised statements: http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/be...incidents.html "Los Angeles County, July 2003 - A male hiker was knocked down by a bear at a remote campsite along the Pacific Crest Trail in the Angeles National Forest. The hiker had just reached the camp, which was empty, dropped his pack on a picnic table, and was looking for a place to hang his food. As he walked back toward the pack, he heard a noise behind him. As he turned he was knocked to the ground by a bear. After standing over him for a few seconds, the bear grabbed the backpack and began dragging it off. The man shouted at the bear and threw rocks until the bear finally retreated without the backpack. The hiker received only minor bruises and was not seriously hurt. Los Angeles County, July 2001 - A woman was bitten on the arm by a bear at a county-run tree farm near La Verne. The bear, which was earlier spotted climbing on a nearby trash can, reportedly walked up to the woman while she was seated at a picnic table and bit her on the arm. The woman was treated at a hospital for puncture wounds. The bear was later shot and killed by Los Angeles County sheriff's deputies. The bear weighed approximately 85 pounds and was estimated at one to two years of age. Trinity County, May 1986 - A 35-year old man was attacked at around 3 a.m. while camping in a tent in the Trinity Alps Wilderness. The victim felt that he was caught in the middle of a fight between two boars when one bear attacked him in his tent. The bear left when the victim hit the bear with a tentpole. Two bears then returned and acted aggressively toward each another before they finally left. The victim sustained several puncture wounds to his shoulder and lacerations to the back of his head. Siskiyou County, September 1986 - A long-time resident of a small rural community was injured while feeding a bear at his residence. The victim had been feeding bears at this location for more than 30 years." So that's just incidental to feeding (getting competitors for the food out of the way). It's not an "attack" on a person. Knocking/clawing/biting someone to get to food is still an attack, even if just part of a plan to secure food. If someone punches/clubs another person in order to steal a wallet, is that not an "attack"? There are also plenty of documented incidents of bears injuring/ attacking people where there was no food being fought over nor cubs to defend. And I see you have no answer for the 2006 Cherokee National Forest black bear attack. Again - male bear. No food being raided. http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/...ar-attack.html Here's a known predatory attack: http://www.southeasternoutdoors.com/...ar-attack.html "Subsequent necropsies preformed at the University of Tennessee confirmed that both bears the rangers killed had fed on Ms. Bradley and were most likely the bears that had killed her. The bears were not emaciated and the necropsies did not reveal any underlying health issues with the bears that may have contributed to the attack. This lead officials to believe the attack was a predatory." Certainly I'm not trying to employ any scare tactics against people visiting the woods. Incidents like this are extremely rare, but I'm not going to sit by while the completely wrong statement "It's a well- known fact that black bears don't attack humans, except to defend their cubs." is passed on as the truth. |
#27
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On 6-Sep-2007, Mike Vandeman wrote: On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 22:53:04 GMT, wrote: Mike, your ignorance of wildlife and factless statements become irritating. While black bear attacks on humans are rather rare, as a carnivore, they can and do attack humans from time to time. The probability of an attack is measured in the 1 to 400 million or more (given the number of recreational visitor days a year in black bear country). The motivation for the attack can range from protecting cubs (and yes I would suggest this is one of the more common reasons), to being startled or surprised by human (usually hikers on a trail) appearing in their path, to viewing humans as a competitor (i.e., protecting a food source) to even viewing humans in very rare cases as a form of food (what appears to have happen in Utah). I doubt it. He peobably smelled human food on & near the boy. Did the bear eat the whole kid? He had fed on the kid but was killed before he devoured him. he bear in Utah had apparently bothered someone in a tent the previous day and the bear did not stumble into the tent looking for food, sliced the tent open and took the boy (much as they do fawns) off into the brush to eat him. I can provide reasonable assurance, he was not frisking the boy for a PB&J, but actually viewed him as food. You haven't provided a shred of evidence, just opinion. If 99.99% of bears don't see humans as food, but only as a source of human food, it's very unlikely that one bear would be different. There have been 53 documented mauling deaths by black bears between 1900 and 2003 (and a couple since then) in all of North America. In the grand scheme of things very rare, but not zero. Bears while carnivores tend to have an omivorous diet, but meat is very much part of it as they can be signficant predators on elk calves and deer fawns. Bears (as all wildlife) are not born with a moral compass which they some how know it is wrong to kill a human (as they might an elk calve, fawn or other prey they regularly feed on). While we can say with certainty (read that as statistically) that bears do not view humans as food - they rarely (as I note in the 1 to 400 million or so plus range) attack us and sometimes their motivation as we have been able to determine is predatory in nature - that is factual - I suggest you review the available data bases on documented deaths before you continue to act stupid. I said it is rare, but not zero. What is surprising and interesting is why some predators (leopards, tigers, African lion) more commonly kill people, while other larger carnivores (cougars and black bears to name a couple) rarely do. Many scientist suggest a strong genetic component (e.g., Vancouver Island an area of 12,000 square miles has more cougar attacks by 2 than California which has nearly 100,000 square miles of cougar habitat one hypothesis is the population of cougars on VI ended up with a more aggressive strain - founder effect) to agressive behavior. You are right to suggest attacks are rare, but dead ass wrong to argue black bears ( a predator) never attacks humans because they see us as prey. As usual, your argument is that because lots of bears are being killed, one more is harmless. Of course, that doesn't logically follow. It's just typical human rationalization. Again, you have no reading comprehension. I did not say one more is harmless as I clearly stated debates about relying soley on lethal options are very valid, but I did state that one more is ecologically insignificant. We (meaning society) kills about 10,000 (or more) black bears a year - in the last ten years that means we humans have killed in the neighborhood of 100,000 (or more bears) and a mt. biker was responsible for 1. Hikers and people on foot are responsible for most of the rest Umm, I will waste band width on a red-herring or maybe work on a much more difficult problem and try and effect a broad change on how society as a whole affects large predators. We all know Mikey's choice and how irrelevant he is. if you want to have an affect, figure out how to reduce the human caused mortality by a bunch. |
#28
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sep 3, 12:23 pm, Mike Vandeman wrote:
[snip] Spokesman Ron Powers said a 51-year-old Port Orchard man was biking with his two dogs alongside him when the dogs ran ahead and around the bend, then started barking fiercely. The man turned the bend and saw the dogs were barking at a bear. Is this git going to be punished for breaking park rules? http://www.kitsapgov.com/parks/herit...st%20rules.htm Animals: Pets, horses and domesticated animals allowed on designated trails only - leashed. He was in a leash area with two loose dogs. It's only a possibility, but I'm wondering if the bear was trying to cross the trail ahead of the biker, and the dogs caused it to panic. If the dogs had not run ahead, the bear might have just gone off into the woods and nobody would ever have known it was around. Result: He was injured, the bear is likely to be killed, and one of his dogs may be dead in the woods. Plus a lot of disruption for the park, and probably over time for the park employees. It's not a story about a mountain biker at all. It's a story about a git who thinks the world is his dog's toilet. Socks |
#29
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
On Sep 6, 12:12 am, (Bill Z.) wrote:
[snip] One black-bear related injury that occurred in Yosemite was due to some guy hanging his food from the limb of a tree and pitching a tent right below it. A bear cub went out on the limb to try to get it, fell off, and landed on the guy, breaking some ribs. I should know better than to read the news groups in the office. Now I have to explain the noise I made when I read that. Socks |
#30
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Black bear attacks mountain biker in Washington State park
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