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Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank



 
 
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  #11  
Old June 9th 09, 03:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jay Beattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,322
Default Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank

On Jun 8, 6:00*pm, wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
I have owned one Octalink setup. *I consistently had problems
with the crank bolts loosening, and the cranks loosening on the
splines. *Very frustrating.
I'm now looking for a compact crank, and the majority of the
offerings on the Bay are Octalink. *Can I learn to install an
Octalink set-up satisfactorily? *What's the trick?
Problem with Octalink and Isis is that if you didn't install them
properly the first time and you damaged the teeth or groves you
are screwed. *You need to make sure that you install them and the
fit is exact. *Either square taper or the new external BB's are a
lot more tolerant of mistakes. *If you have a choice go for either
one. *You'll find a lot of Octalink and ISIS on sale because they
are getting phased out. *I have had ISIS and it has worked
fine. *But I am always very careful making sure to get proper
fit. *However I'd rather use square taper. I have a brand new
campy chorus triple square taper that I bought for $30 on
ebay. *If the Isis fails, I'll toss it and install the campy. *You
should be able to find some compact square taper cheap if you look
around.
Not so. *All Octalink transmitting high torque loosen their
retaining bolt, new or used, and installed by experts and amateurs
alike. *What do you perceive is the opposite from "install them
properly the first time"? *How does one "damaged the teeth or
groves" on installation?
How are you "always very careful making sure to get proper
fit". *How does one not get a "proper fit?"

Because with the Octalink BB (at least the original design) you
could get the feeling of proper engagement and actually be slightly
off. *You had to look carefully to make sure the splines were
properly engaged. This is not myth or lore -- lots of people made
this mistake, including me (working in a hurry). *It results in
early crank death.


You didn't exactly say so, but it sounds like some installations are
made without engaging the spline and trying to tighten it into place,
tooth on tooth. *Why don't you come right out and say so. *That way
people who have these cranks would be able to use the information.
The word "properly" is suitably mysterious for someone not skilled in
mechanical assembly.


Properly means that by feel, it seems to fit like a puzzle piece, but
in fact, there is a misfit. I have not had any problem with loosening
with an Octalink absent a problem with the initial installation.-- Jay
Beattie.
Ads
  #12  
Old June 9th 09, 04:56 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 941
Default Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank

wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:

I have owned one Octalink setup. I consistently had problems
with the crank bolts loosening, and the cranks loosening on the
splines. Very frustrating.


I'm now looking for a compact crank, and the majority of the
offerings on the Bay are Octalink. Can I learn to install an
Octalink set-up satisfactorily? What's the trick?


Problem with Octalink and Isis is that if you didn't install
them properly the first time and you damaged the teeth or groves
you are screwed. You need to make sure that you install them
and the fit is exact. Either square taper or the new external
BB's are a lot more tolerant of mistakes. If you have a choice
go for either one. You'll find a lot of Octalink and ISIS on
sale because they are getting phased out. I have had ISIS and
it has worked fine. But I am always very careful making sure to
get proper fit. However I'd rather use square taper. I have a
brand new campy chorus triple square taper that I bought for $30
on ebay. If the Isis fails, I'll toss it and install the
campy. You should be able to find some compact square taper
cheap if you look around.


Not so. All Octalink transmitting high torque loosen their
retaining bolt, new or used, and installed by experts and
amateurs alike. What do you perceive is the opposite from
"install them properly the first time"? How does one "damaged
the teeth or groves" on installation?


How are you "always very careful making sure to get proper
fit". How does one not get a "proper fit?"


Because with the Octalink BB (at least the original design) you
could get the feeling of proper engagement and actually be slightly
off. You had to look carefully to make sure the splines were
properly engaged. This is not myth or lore -- lots of people made
this mistake, including me (working in a hurry). It results in
early crank death.


This is a digital system. How can one be "slightly off". Either the
spline is engaged or not. You are still hedging on what goes wrong.

You didn't exactly say so, but it sounds like some installations
are made without engaging the spline and trying to tighten it into
place, tooth on tooth. Why don't you come right out and say
so. That way people who have these cranks would be able to use the
information. The word "properly" is suitably mysterious for
someone not skilled in mechanical assembly.


Properly means that by feel, it seems to fit like a puzzle piece,
but in fact, there is a misfit. I have not had any problem with
loosening with an Octalink absent a problem with the initial
installation.


This is an amazing dodge and weave diversion from what is happening.
Are you saying users put cranks on randomly and hoped that with enough
tightening the spline would find its way? This sounds absurd!


jobst, as usual, you don't have experience of this stuff. /and/ you're
failing to observe the reason why undamaged octalink doesn't loosen -
the radiused roots wedging against "fretting".

you need to sit back and consider that:

1. just maybe someone else's experience is superior to yours.

2. you ****ed up.

there - now you can go back and fix your misconceptions.
  #13  
Old June 9th 09, 09:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,093
Default Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank

wrote:

pb in sdca wrote:

I'm now looking for a compact crank, and the majority of the offerings
on the Bay are octalink. *Can I learn to install an octalink set-up
satisfactorily? *What's the trick?


use a torque wrench. *a strain guage should be fairly inexpensive
make certain everything is very clean, I put some lithium grease on
the splines to eliminate creaking; I install the adjusting crank onto
the axle to the max torque spec and feel to make sure there is no
play. I think locitite is recommended, but I don't like to use that
because if there is any play it makes adjustment difficult and leaves
a residue on the threads. then the crank fixing screws get one turn
each in alternating pattern untill I reach more than half-way of the
torque spec.range.


And then there is the way that people _actually_ service their bikes.
Although I don't think you were talking about what is usually called a
"strain gauge", a strain gauge is a great example of what should
never, ever be required for the safe and reliable operation or
maintenance of a bicycle.

http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/mec...auge-close.jpg

The gold standard of reliability and ease of service is the one-piece
crank. Square taper BBs are several steps more finicky, demanding,
and unreliable. ISIS BBs are even worse, and Octalink is, as far as I
know, the worst system that ever got significant market penetration--
both in reliability and in ease of service. Splined 2-piece cranks
conforming to Roger Durham's patent are worlds better than anything
road bikes and MTBs have used in threaded shells in living memory.
I'm sure Shimano has figured out some way to fawk them up, but they
are a fundamentally sound design (unlike Octalink).

I have encountered some lossening after a number of
rides in varying environmental conditions (very slight, minimal play),
but I reinstall cranks as described so I have not observed any damage
to the cranks or bb spindle; doubtless, if I leave things they would
get damaged.


So after your laboratory-grade installation procedure, Octalink cranks
still loosen in normal use. That's a perfect illustration of the
problem with them, and why they should never have been foisted on an
unsuspecting consumer market.

Chalo
  #14  
Old June 9th 09, 09:43 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Chalo
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,093
Default Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank

Jobst Brandt wrote:

Again, the only torque the BB
spindle carries is that from the left crank, right crank torque going
directly into the chain.


You are aware of the following, because I have seen you say so:
Cranks can be torqued one against the other in either direction. This
torque necessarily transmits through the spindle.

Landing from a jump or drop in a standing position exerts higher
momentary torque than any amount of pedaling.

Chalo
  #15  
Old June 9th 09, 10:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
somebody[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 193
Default Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank

On Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:17:26 -0700 (PDT), Jay Beattie
wrote:


If I were looking for something used, I would go with square drive.
Isis and Octalink BBs have the whole bearing failure issue (ISIS more
than Octalink), so even if you mount the cranks right, the BB has got
a severely limited life expectancy. I never had a problem with square
drive, notwithstanding the claims about spindle breakage, etc.
Bearings would wear out, but only after a good long time. -- Jay
Beattie.


What bearing failure issues do ISIS have, and why does the BB have a
limited life? I have a couple ISIS and want to know what to look for.
  #16  
Old June 9th 09, 12:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 86
Default Questions for Jobst Brandt (was: Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank)

On Jun 8, 10:43 pm, wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
I have owned one Octalink setup. I consistently had problems
with the crank bolts loosening, and the cranks loosening on the
splines. Very frustrating.
I'm now looking for a compact crank, and the majority of the
offerings on the Bay are Octalink. Can I learn to install an
Octalink set-up satisfactorily? What's the trick?
Problem with Octalink and Isis is that if you didn't install
them properly the first time and you damaged the teeth or groves
you are screwed. You need to make sure that you install them
and the fit is exact. Either square taper or the new external
BB's are a lot more tolerant of mistakes. If you have a choice
go for either one. You'll find a lot of Octalink and ISIS on
sale because they are getting phased out. I have had ISIS and
it has worked fine. But I am always very careful making sure to
get proper fit. However I'd rather use square taper. I have a
brand new campy chorus triple square taper that I bought for $30
on ebay. If the Isis fails, I'll toss it and install the
campy. You should be able to find some compact square taper
cheap if you look around.
Not so. All Octalink transmitting high torque loosen their
retaining bolt, new or used, and installed by experts and
amateurs alike. What do you perceive is the opposite from
"install them properly the first time"? How does one "damaged
the teeth or groves" on installation?
How are you "always very careful making sure to get proper
fit". How does one not get a "proper fit?"
Because with the Octalink BB (at least the original design) you
could get the feeling of proper engagement and actually be slightly
off. You had to look carefully to make sure the splines were
properly engaged. This is not myth or lore -- lots of people made
this mistake, including me (working in a hurry). It results in
early crank death.


This is a digital system. How can one be "slightly off". Either the
spline is engaged or not. You are still hedging on what goes wrong.

You didn't exactly say so, but it sounds like some installations
are made without engaging the spline and trying to tighten it into
place, tooth on tooth. Why don't you come right out and say
so. That way people who have these cranks would be able to use the
information. The word "properly" is suitably mysterious for
someone not skilled in mechanical assembly.

Properly means that by feel, it seems to fit like a puzzle piece,
but in fact, there is a misfit. I have not had any problem with
loosening with an Octalink absent a problem with the initial
installation.


This is an amazing dodge and weave diversion from what is happening.
Are you saying users put cranks on randomly and hoped that with enough
tightening the spline would find its way? This sounds absurd!



Jobst:

1- Have you ever installed an Octalink crank on an Octalink BB
spindle? A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.

2- Have you personally ever experienced the loosening and subsequent
spindle damage you so often describe when using an Octalink BB/crank
system? Once again, a simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.

Thank you so much for sharing your *personal, first-hand experience*
in these matters.

  #17  
Old June 9th 09, 12:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 86
Default Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank

On Jun 9, 3:38 am, Chalo wrote:
wrote:

pb in sdca wrote:


I'm now looking for a compact crank, and the majority of the offerings
on the Bay are octalink. Can I learn to install an octalink set-up
satisfactorily? What's the trick?


use a torque wrench. a strain guage should be fairly inexpensive
make certain everything is very clean, I put some lithium grease on
the splines to eliminate creaking; I install the adjusting crank onto
the axle to the max torque spec and feel to make sure there is no
play. I think locitite is recommended, but I don't like to use that
because if there is any play it makes adjustment difficult and leaves
a residue on the threads. then the crank fixing screws get one turn
each in alternating pattern untill I reach more than half-way of the
torque spec.range.


And then there is the way that people _actually_ service their bikes.
Although I don't think you were talking about what is usually called a
"strain gauge", a strain gauge is a great example of what should
never, ever be required for the safe and reliable operation or
maintenance of a bicycle.

http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/mec...ges/strain-gau...

The gold standard of reliability and ease of service is the one-piece
crank. Square taper BBs are several steps more finicky, demanding,
and unreliable. ISIS BBs are even worse, and Octalink is, as far as I
know, the worst system that ever got significant market penetration--
both in reliability and in ease of service. Splined 2-piece cranks
conforming to Roger Durham's patent are worlds better than anything
road bikes and MTBs have used in threaded shells in living memory.
I'm sure Shimano has figured out some way to fawk them up, but they
are a fundamentally sound design (unlike Octalink).

I have encountered some lossening after a number of
rides in varying environmental conditions (very slight, minimal play),
but I reinstall cranks as described so I have not observed any damage
to the cranks or bb spindle; doubtless, if I leave things they would
get damaged.


So after your laboratory-grade installation procedure, Octalink cranks
still loosen in normal use. That's a perfect illustration of the
problem with them, and why they should never have been foisted on an
unsuspecting consumer market.



I'm not a big fan of Octalink, but the problems I have seen have been
around somewhat short bearing life and fussy initial installation.
IMO, the biggest problem with Octalink was the fact that Shimano has
abandoned the design, leaving buyers up the creek. Hardly the first
time Shimano (and others, including Campy)has done this sort of thing.

I also think the original Dura-Ace BB-7700 Octalink BB assembly was a
very nice item. OTOH, the BB-5500 105 level cartridge unit is
mediocre, at best. YMMV.

  #18  
Old June 9th 09, 02:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 941
Default Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank

Chalo wrote:
wrote:
pb in sdca wrote:
I'm now looking for a compact crank, and the majority of the offerings
on the Bay are octalink. �Can I learn to install an octalink set-up
satisfactorily? �What's the trick?

use a torque wrench. �a strain guage should be fairly inexpensive
make certain everything is very clean, I put some lithium grease on
the splines to eliminate creaking; I install the adjusting crank onto
the axle to the max torque spec and feel to make sure there is no
play. I think locitite is recommended, but I don't like to use that
because if there is any play it makes adjustment difficult and leaves
a residue on the threads. then the crank fixing screws get one turn
each in alternating pattern untill I reach more than half-way of the
torque spec.range.


And then there is the way that people _actually_ service their bikes.
Although I don't think you were talking about what is usually called a
"strain gauge", a strain gauge is a great example of what should
never, ever be required for the safe and reliable operation or
maintenance of a bicycle.

http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/mec...auge-close.jpg


that is /SUCH/ strawman bull**** - your great great grandparents are
ashamed.



The gold standard of reliability and ease of service is the one-piece
crank. Square taper BBs are several steps more finicky, demanding,
and unreliable. ISIS BBs are even worse, and Octalink is, as far as I
know, the worst system that ever got significant market penetration--
both in reliability and in ease of service. Splined 2-piece cranks
conforming to Roger Durham's patent are worlds better than anything
road bikes and MTBs have used in threaded shells in living memory.
I'm sure Shimano has figured out some way to fawk them up, but they
are a fundamentally sound design (unlike Octalink).

I have encountered some lossening after a number of
rides in varying environmental conditions (very slight, minimal play),
but I reinstall cranks as described so I have not observed any damage
to the cranks or bb spindle; doubtless, if I leave things they would
get damaged.


So after your laboratory-grade installation procedure, Octalink cranks
still loosen in normal use. That's a perfect illustration of the
problem with them, and why they should never have been foisted on an
unsuspecting consumer market.



more guesswork from the very un-funny circus clown.

"pick a subject and i'll **** it up" - chalo colina

  #19  
Old June 9th 09, 02:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jim beam[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 941
Default Questions for Jobst Brandt

wrote:
On Jun 8, 10:43 pm, wrote:
Jay Beattie wrote:
I have owned one Octalink setup. I consistently had problems
with the crank bolts loosening, and the cranks loosening on the
splines. Very frustrating.
I'm now looking for a compact crank, and the majority of the
offerings on the Bay are Octalink. Can I learn to install an
Octalink set-up satisfactorily? What's the trick?
Problem with Octalink and Isis is that if you didn't install
them properly the first time and you damaged the teeth or groves
you are screwed. You need to make sure that you install them
and the fit is exact. Either square taper or the new external
BB's are a lot more tolerant of mistakes. If you have a choice
go for either one. You'll find a lot of Octalink and ISIS on
sale because they are getting phased out. I have had ISIS and
it has worked fine. But I am always very careful making sure to
get proper fit. However I'd rather use square taper. I have a
brand new campy chorus triple square taper that I bought for $30
on ebay. If the Isis fails, I'll toss it and install the
campy. You should be able to find some compact square taper
cheap if you look around.
Not so. All Octalink transmitting high torque loosen their
retaining bolt, new or used, and installed by experts and
amateurs alike. What do you perceive is the opposite from
"install them properly the first time"? How does one "damaged
the teeth or groves" on installation?
How are you "always very careful making sure to get proper
fit". How does one not get a "proper fit?"
Because with the Octalink BB (at least the original design) you
could get the feeling of proper engagement and actually be slightly
off. You had to look carefully to make sure the splines were
properly engaged. This is not myth or lore -- lots of people made
this mistake, including me (working in a hurry). It results in
early crank death.

This is a digital system. How can one be "slightly off". Either the
spline is engaged or not. You are still hedging on what goes wrong.

You didn't exactly say so, but it sounds like some installations
are made without engaging the spline and trying to tighten it into
place, tooth on tooth. Why don't you come right out and say
so. That way people who have these cranks would be able to use the
information. The word "properly" is suitably mysterious for
someone not skilled in mechanical assembly.
Properly means that by feel, it seems to fit like a puzzle piece,
but in fact, there is a misfit. I have not had any problem with
loosening with an Octalink absent a problem with the initial
installation.

This is an amazing dodge and weave diversion from what is happening.
Are you saying users put cranks on randomly and hoped that with enough
tightening the spline would find its way? This sounds absurd!



Jobst:

1- Have you ever installed an Octalink crank on an Octalink BB
spindle? A simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.

2- Have you personally ever experienced the loosening and subsequent
spindle damage you so often describe when using an Octalink BB/crank
system? Once again, a simple "Yes" or "No" will suffice.

Thank you so much for sharing your *personal, first-hand experience*
in these matters.


why would he want experience? he has no experience of brinelling, but
he's "qualified" comment on headset indexing and get it wrong. he has
no experience of metal fatigue and residual stress, but he's qualified
to get that wrong too. and then there's rim anodizing and his not even
knowing about anisotropy...

bottom line - he doesn't /need/ experience - he can **** up without it.
  #20  
Old June 9th 09, 02:28 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 769
Default Advice regarding Octalink BB/Crank

On Jun 9, 4:38*am, Chalo wrote:
wrote:

pb in sdca wrote:


I'm now looking for a compact crank, and the majority of the offerings
on the Bay are octalink. *Can I learn to install an octalink set-up
satisfactorily? *What's the trick?


use a torque wrench. *a strain guage should be fairly inexpensive
make certain everything is very clean, I put some lithium grease on
the splines to eliminate creaking; I install the adjusting crank onto
the axle to the max torque spec and feel to make sure there is no
play. I think locitite is recommended, but I don't like to use that
because if there is any play it makes adjustment difficult and leaves
a residue on the threads. then the crank fixing screws get one turn
each in alternating pattern untill I reach more than half-way of the
torque spec.range.


And then there is the way that people _actually_ service their bikes.
Although I don't think you were talking about what is usually called a
"strain gauge", a strain gauge is a great example of what should
never, ever be required for the safe and reliable operation or
maintenance of a bicycle.

http://www.doitpoms.ac.uk/tlplib/mec...ges/strain-gau...

The gold standard of reliability and ease of service is the one-piece
crank. *Square taper BBs are several steps more finicky, demanding,
and unreliable. *ISIS BBs are even worse, and Octalink is, as far as I
know, the worst system that ever got significant market penetration--
both in reliability and in ease of service. *Splined 2-piece cranks
conforming to Roger Durham's patent are worlds better than anything
road bikes and MTBs have used in threaded shells in living memory.
I'm sure Shimano has figured out some way to fawk them up, but they
are a fundamentally sound design (unlike Octalink).

I have encountered some lossening after a number of
rides in varying environmental conditions (very slight, minimal play),
but I reinstall cranks as described so I have not observed any damage
to the cranks or bb spindle; doubtless, if I leave things they would
get damaged.


So after your laboratory-grade installation procedure, Octalink cranks
still loosen in normal use. *That's a perfect illustration of the
problem with them, and why they should never have been foisted on an
unsuspecting consumer market.

Chalo- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


the tool I am refering too is

http://www.parktool.com/products/det...13&item=TW%2D1

I have heard it called a strain guage, I have seen this type of tool
at at a local automotive store for a lot less than other types of
torque wrenches. I am trying to help the OP.

uhhh, you say normal use- I indicated under varying environmental
conditions to suggest more exceptional use- don't try to put words in
my mouth to try to make a point, K-o ?
 




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