Comeback from doping... possible?

"Kyle Legate" wrote in message
...

I hit a heart rate of 232 a couple of weekends ago. Am I a doper?

No, but if you don't watch it you could be dead.

Kyle Legate wrote:
I hit a heart rate of 232 a couple of weekends ago. Am I a doper?

Dumbass,
Of course, you have to be a doper to make president of the lemon club.

Donald Munro wrote:

Kyle Legate wrote:
I hit a heart rate of 232 a couple of weekends ago. Am I a doper?

Dumbass,
Of course, you have to be a doper to make president of the lemon club.


If you're in the lemon club and your heart rate is 232, I would say it is
time to cut back a little on the poppers.

--
Bill Asher

On Jun 8, 7:32*am, wrote:

I believe you are more perceptive than you realize. It is a mental and
moral weakness that will cause a rider to dope. Cycling is a hard
sport- it physically hurts to go that hard to win; the rider who dopes
cannot endure that agony and so looks for a way to achieve without the
suffering. When you go hard you can still push yourself, there are
times when you have focused on something else and managed to go faster
or further than before, but always there is a point where you decide
"enough !" and ease off. I believe that once such a rider has cracked
and given in he will never be able to take his body to the limits he
has gone before, much less beyond those limits. Heart rate monitoring
is a way for riders can quantify their pain and bring their effort to
a level they are familiar with- but the max heart rate line is one
that nearly impossible to cross on a conscious level, even though
physically it is achieveable.

Dumbass,

Heart rate is not an indicator of performance.
A trained Masters Fattie and a couch potato may
have the same maximum heart rate, but will have
vastly different power outputs at the same level of
perceived exertion. Power wins races, not heart rate.

It's funny how people always say that mental weakness
causes riders to dope. But in other fields, like say
business or NASCAR or football coaching, people say
that it is the participants' overwhelming drive to succeed
and other motivations (greed, desire for glory, plain old
competitiveness) that causes the participants to cheat.

Like, nobody says Bill Belichick violated rules about
taping other NFL teams because he is mentally weak.
They say he did it because of his grim killer instinct
to win. (I'm not arguing about whether what he did was
good or bad, just about the motivations people ascribe
to it.) Maybe some dopers want to win more than everybody
else, and that's why they dope.

Just like Paul Erdos and his amphetamines. Without them,
he couldn't do math (he claimed) and that was about the only
thing important in his life, so he was driven to keep doping.
Do you want to call him morally weak for that? Or is moral
weakness only determined by Swiss bureaucrat listmakers,
because the UCI has a banned list and the American
Mathematical Society doesn't?

Ben

On Jun 9, 6:33*am, --D-y wrote:


We don't have a Truth Machine. Until we do (I hope never), doping is
an unsolvable problem.


Dumbass -

It's not possible. People's memories range from perfect (a small
minority) to completely delusional. There's a portion of the brain
that alters memories as a coping mechanism. Some brains use it only
for coping w/ truly traumatic events while other brains run all
memories through it.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

D-y wrote:
We don't have a Truth Machine. Until we do (I hope never), doping is an
unsolvable problem.

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
It's not possible. People's memories range from perfect (a small minority)
to completely delusional. There's a portion of the brain that alters
memories as a coping mechanism. Some brains use it only for coping w/
truly traumatic events while other brains run all memories through it.

And SchwartzSoft have a patented the memEmbroid algorithm.

On Jun 9, 12:57*pm, "
wrote:
On Jun 8, 7:32*am, wrote:



I believe you are more perceptive than you realize. It is a mental and
moral weakness that will cause a rider to dope. Cycling is a hard
sport- it physically hurts to go that hard to win; the rider who dopes
cannot endure that agony and so looks for a way to achieve without the
suffering. When you go hard you can still push yourself, there are
times when you have focused on something else and managed to go faster
or further than before, but always there is a point where you decide
"enough !" and ease off. I believe that once such a rider has cracked
and given in he will never be able to take his body to the limits he
has gone before, much less beyond those limits. Heart rate monitoring
is a way for riders can quantify their pain and bring their effort to
a level they are familiar with- but the max heart rate line is one
that nearly impossible to cross on a conscious level, even though
physically it is achieveable.

Dumbass,

Heart rate is not an indicator of performance.
A trained Masters Fattie and a couch potato may
have the same maximum heart rate, but will have
vastly different power outputs at the same level of
perceived exertion. *Power wins races, not heart rate.

It's funny how people always say that mental weakness
causes riders to dope. *But in other fields, like say
business or NASCAR or football coaching, people say
that it is the participants' overwhelming drive to succeed
and other motivations (greed, desire for glory, plain old
competitiveness) that causes the participants to cheat.

Like, nobody says Bill Belichick violated rules about
taping other NFL teams because he is mentally weak.
They say he did it because of his grim killer instinct
to win. *(I'm not arguing about whether what he did was
good or bad, just about the motivations people ascribe
to it.) *Maybe some dopers want to win more than everybody
else, and that's why they dope.

Just like Paul Erdos and his amphetamines. *Without them,
he couldn't do math (he claimed) and that was about the only
thing important in his life, so he was driven to keep doping.
Do you want to call him morally weak for that? *Or is moral
weakness only determined by Swiss bureaucrat listmakers,
because the UCI has a banned list and the American
Mathematical Society doesn't?

Ben

you seem to misunderstand my point- try reading it again and see if
that helps. I am not talking about power, I am talking about pain-
specifically the pain required to achieve - that the doper is one who
has cracked and seeks to achieve without the painful price. I am
suggesting that people are capable of greater effort, but that it is a
conscious decision to conclude that effort prematurely due to the pain
such exertion causes. I suggest heart rate monitoring as a common
means one can test this idea

raamman wrote:
you seem to misunderstand my point- try reading it again and see if that
helps. I am not talking about power, I am talking about pain- specifically
the pain required to achieve - that the doper is one who has cracked and
seeks to achieve without the painful price. I am suggesting that people
are capable of greater effort, but that it is a conscious decision to
conclude that effort prematurely due to the pain such exertion causes. I
suggest heart rate monitoring as a common means one can test this idea

Ah, so you're suggesting they're all using crystal meth and PCP since
EPO would have no effect on perceived pain ?

On Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:17:58 -0700 (PDT), "Kurgan. presented by
Gringioni." wrote:

On Jun 9, 6:33*am, --D-y wrote:


We don't have a Truth Machine. Until we do (I hope never), doping is
an unsolvable problem.


Dumbass -

It's not possible. People's memories range from perfect (a small
minority) to completely delusional. There's a portion of the brain
that alters memories as a coping mechanism. Some brains use it only
for coping w/ truly traumatic events while other brains run all
memories through it.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

I think you are saying that the more delusional you are, the better
you cope. I can climb on that bandwagon.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Donald Munro wrote:
Kyle Legate wrote:
I hit a heart rate of 232 a couple of weekends ago. Am I a doper?

Dumbass,
Of course, you have to be a doper to make president of the lemon club.

Maybe just being a dope would suffice.