Comeback from doping... possible?

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Carl Sundquist" wrote in message
...

Yeah, I am. It started affecting me on the bike in August of '07 in a
relatively minor way. Ran a slew of tests that Fall, but it seemed to
go away after resting in the off season. Was scheduled to have an
ablation in March of last year, but between not having much
recurrence, some of the risks of radio frequency (burning) ablation,
and not keen on a 6 month regimen of Coumadin/Warfarin, I chose to
postpone the procedure. Things were going well but in August, it all
fell apart again. Even easy recovery effort rides were triggering
fibrillation events. It gradually got better (I was hoping for a
similar pattern as the year before), but not good. I heard about a
clinical trial that used a cryogenic procedure rather than the RF
method that is much safer and gets you off Coumadin in half the time.
Unfortunately, I was too late for the first round of the trials and
was too far down on the list for the second round. It's gotten not
quite to a quality of life issue (if you don't count the bike that
is), but it's come to the point where I should address it sooner
rather than later.

You have my complete sympathy Carl. Sorry that you're going through that
and hope that you can get it resolved in a positive manner sooner rather
than later.


Thanks, Tom.

marco wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote
marco wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote:
For the past 9 months I've been hitting 238-239 on almost every hard
ride I have done.

Are you considering surgery, like that valve ablation procedure?
(Assuming that you have the kind of arrhythmia it's designed to fix...)

Yeah, I am. It started affecting me on the bike in August of '07 in a
relatively minor way. Ran a slew of tests that Fall, but it seemed to
go away after resting in the off season. Was scheduled to have an
ablation in March of last year, but between not having much
recurrence, some of the risks of radio frequency (burning) ablation,
and not keen on a 6 month regimen of Coumadin/Warfarin, I chose to
postpone the procedure. Things were going well but in August, it all
fell apart again. Even easy recovery effort rides were triggering
fibrillation events. It gradually got better (I was hoping for a
similar pattern as the year before), but not good. I heard about a
clinical trial that used a cryogenic procedure rather than the RF
method that is much safer and gets you off Coumadin in half the time.
Unfortunately, I was too late for the first round of the trials and
was too far down on the list for the second round. It's gotten not
quite to a quality of life issue (if you don't count the bike that
is), but it's come to the point where I should address it sooner
rather than later.


I know that rbr is the LAST place you'll go for advice, but...

Have you given up all caffeine and ...gasp!!... alcohol? (Side story: I
remember when you won the crit for 35+ masters nationals in Tallahassee
and when the announcer asked "what's next?" you responded that you were
going to go get a beer...) Anyway, I have a teammate who is dealing with
the same heart issue and he's had some success by giving up caffeine and
alcohol. Personally, my head would explode if faced with that option.


I abstained for about 90 days. The first two weeks were the toughest, as
(like a child) I felt that I was being unfairly denied something that I
enjoyed. After that it was pretty easy. Unfortunately, it didn't seem to
make a difference.

On Jun 9, 1:37*pm, wrote:
On Jun 9, 12:57*pm, "
wrote:

Like, nobody says Bill Belichick violated rules about
taping other NFL teams because he is mentally weak.
They say he did it because of his grim killer instinct
to win. *(I'm not arguing about whether what he did was
good or bad, just about the motivations people ascribe
to it.) *Maybe some dopers want to win more than everybody
else, and that's why they dope.

Just like Paul Erdos and his amphetamines. *Without them,
he couldn't do math (he claimed) and that was about the only
thing important in his life, so he was driven to keep doping.
Do you want to call him morally weak for that? *Or is moral
weakness only determined by Swiss bureaucrat listmakers,
because the UCI has a banned list and the American
Mathematical Society doesn't?

Ben

you seem to misunderstand my point- try reading it again and see if
that helps. I am not talking about power, I am talking about pain-
specifically the pain required to achieve - that the doper is one who
has cracked and seeks to achieve without the painful price. I am
suggesting that people are capable of greater effort, but that it is a
conscious decision to conclude that effort prematurely due to the pain
such exertion causes. I suggest heart rate monitoring as a common
means one can test this idea

Dumbass,

LemonD famously said:

"It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster."

What part of that doesn't apply to doping?

Ben

On Jun 9, 6:35*pm, ronaldo_jeremiah
wrote:
On Jun 9, 12:17*pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."

wrote:
On Jun 9, 6:33*am, --D-y wrote:

We don't have a Truth Machine. Until we do (I hope never), doping is
an unsolvable problem.

Dumbass -

It's not possible. People's memories range from perfect (a small
minority)

No, no one has perfect memory.

to completely delusional.

Delusions are false beliefs. *You could have a great memory and be
totally delusional, or vice versa.

There's a portion of the brain
that alters memories as a coping mechanism. Some brains use it only
for coping w/ truly traumatic events while other brains run all
memories through it.

Eh, not quite. *A better explanation is that human memory is not
perfect because it just doesn't need to be, so it didn't evolve to
be. *Trauma certainly need not be involved, and there is actually
scant evidence to support memory repression. *If anything, trauma is
typically remembered too well in some cases.



Dumbass -

Have you ever seen that study where they polled a bunch of people
right after the Challenger disaster, then tracked as many people down
as possible 10 years later and polled them again?

In both instances, they asked the same question: "what were you doing
when you heard about the disaster?"

Only 9% of those who were polled gave the same answer both times.

The speculation is there is some mechanism in the brain that alters
are memories, purposefully.

What do you think the reason is? I'd like to know your opinion.

As for the Truth Machine: the lack of such a device is why justice
systems. whether criminal or sporting, are always flawed.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.

wrote:

pain is why I don't get on my bike and make an effort to get my hrm to
show me a max that is one beat higher than what I am used to- it's
hard, it hurts and I don't want to cross that line even though I might
get a better time and that pushing myself to that extent shouldn't
harm me- that's my breaking point even though I think I could go a few
beats higher, much less just one. I think the same deal basically
applies to just about anyone.


No, you're just weak. I have the impression that I can suffer more than
when I was younger, because I have developed the mental toughness
required to say "the pain is temporary, **** the pain". Hence the
bizarrely high heart rate I quoted earlier in the thread, which is a few
beats higher than I ever recorded when I was younger and racing.

On Jun 9, 9:33*pm, "marco" wrote:
Raamman wrote:
merkx tried to disuade axel from going pro because because it was too
painful a sport. hinault reciently spoke of the pain.

Perhaps they're more refering to the chronic pain and fatigue of 3 week
stage races. We'd have to ask them. That's different than riding a little
bit harder up a col because you can handle more acute "pain".

I think a lot of pros are familiar with the pain, as are most here too.

What the amateur whines about as pain, the pro perceives as a bioligical
barometer of effort. It may be uncomfortable, but it's not pain in the sense
of pulling off your fingernails one by one. Ask your local pro about his/her
perception of the pain of climbing a long climb or riding a 40 km tt, and
particularly whether or not it is what limits him/her. I think they spend
enough time at those levels that the pain perception is different than it is
for the rest of us. That's what I've been told anyway. Also, though it's not
exactly comparable, I know when my fitness is good, the perceived limiter is
not pain in the same way it is when I'm not fit. When fit, the sensation is
just a byproduct of the effort; when not fit, it's a limiter.

pros are atheletes who get paid to do what they do, they aren't
superhuman or more different than you or I- I won't say their
perception of pain is any greater or less than anyone else; I'm sure
some have a higher pain thereshold as I am sure there are those who
probabally have lower pain threshold- their physical strength enables
them to ride consistently faster

I'm thinking a
racer is trying to keep up and thinks "I can't handle this anymore"
then goes afterwards for a way to make it easier. I would say at that
point the rider has mentally cracked and given up- I don't see how a
rider can go past that breaking point after finding a easier way to go
past without the suffering. I'm not certain, it might have been ricco
who described how nice it was to glide along with the pack and look
around and see all the suffering faces- if he describes gliding along
while others are suffering he is not feeling pain to any extent.

Your conjectures a (1) the dopers don't have the mental fortitude to push
themselves as hard as the non-dopers

not the non-dopers, as hard as themselves before they turned to dope -
( remember the original question of the thread )- I am suggesting the
rider cracked, and like touching something white hot and getting
burned, it takes considerable mental effort to put your hand on it
again.

; and (2) for high-level racers,
independent of doping, they're all limited by their perception of pain. Is
that correct?

I am saying that individuals are self limiting in their efforts by the
perception of pain caused by their exertions- this is not to suggest
that a stoned cyclist could go faster- mental focus is absolutely
necessary

All else equal, how many delta-watts do you think the
non-doper's versus the doper's mental fortitude is worth? And in general, if
you had a way to measure the ability to handle the pain, how much do you
think it's worth in watts, time, or whatever? For example, take the
physiology of (rbr's new crush) Taylor Phinney and add the mind of some
other pro pursuiter who "can't handle as much pain" ...how different would
his 4k time be?

I have no way to begin to answer that; but I definitely would say
that in a contest between two physically identical persons the one
with the higher pain threshold would perservere based on the
willingness to push that much harder than the other.


it's
pain is why I don't get on my bike and make an effort to get my hrm to
show me a max that is one beat higher than what I am used to- it's
hard, it hurts and I don't want to cross that line even though I might
get a better time and that pushing myself to that extent shouldn't
harm me- that's my breaking point even though I think I could go a few
beats higher, much less just one. I think the same deal basically
applies to just about anyone.
there is pain management- the automaton pro cyclist- probabally has a
higher tolerance or mental focus to deal with it- but that doesn't
mean it doesn't hurt.

Sure, but I think you're suggesting that some additional psychological
training would let most of the pro peloton ride a bit harder. In other
words, you're suggesting the ultimate limiter is still mental no matter how
well trained the physiology is. Is that about right?

I think psychology is a limiter-obviously, there are absolutes beyond
which psychology cannot pass- pain probabally increases on a
exponential scale

merckx and the hour, he said it was the most
painful thing he had ever done, and I don't doubt him that one bit.

I don't doubt that either, but it's not the same thing as saying his pain
threshold is what limited his hour distance. I think he did what he could do
and it hurt a lot.

wow. who knows. his lap times were not consistent so it is easy to say
he was not 100% the entire hour, but at the same time we have to
realize he had to modulate his effort with an eye to the event's
completition, so we are not just talking about a pain threshold as
being a limiter, but a conscious decision during the event to maintain
a certain pace and lap time in order to achieve the desired 50kms
target. I imagine that his final laps were where his heart rate
peaked; perhaps considerably higher than ever before- and that he was
pushing himself into a realm of pain that he had not ventured before
either. But after the event he probabally realized he could've taken
one or two seconds back earlier to enable him to crack 50kms- but at
the end of the event it was too late- but it was not something he
would attempt again either.

contrast that with chris boardman- he did the hour 3 (?) times. I've
read a lot of disparinging remarks about him, calling him a doper- I
admit, I am naive in that regard; I don't see triumph in deciet- so I
tend to believe a number of riders have achieved things cleanly. I
know he had a lot of physical preparation with the help of dr peter
keen- but I wonder what kind of psychological help he might have had
in order to go at the hour that many times. the answer might be
significant to this discussion.

On Jun 9, 10:50*pm, Carl Sundquist wrote:
wrote:
On Jun 8, 10:51 pm, Carl Sundquist wrote:
marco wrote:
Carl Sundquist wrote:
For the past 9 months I've been hitting 238-239 on almost every hard
ride I have done.
Are you considering surgery, like that valve ablation procedure?
(Assuming that you have the kind of arrhythmia it's designed to fix....)
Yeah, I am. It started affecting me on the bike in August of '07 in a
relatively minor way. Ran a slew of tests that Fall, but it seemed to go
away after resting in the off season. Was scheduled to have an ablation
in March of last year, but between not having much recurrence, some of
the risks of radio frequency (burning) ablation, and not keen on a 6
month regimen of Coumadin/Warfarin, I chose to postpone the procedure.
Things were going well but in August, it all fell apart again. Even easy
recovery effort rides were triggering fibrillation events. It gradually
got better (I was hoping for a similar pattern as the year before), but
not good. I heard about a clinical trial that used a cryogenic procedure
rather than the RF method that is much safer and gets you off Coumadin
in half the time. Unfortunately, I was too late for the first round of
the trials and was too far down on the list for the second round. It's
gotten not quite to a quality of life issue (if you don't count the bike
that is), but it's come to the point where I should address it sooner
rather than later.

is that all 4 chambers in correct order or is that an aberation in the
sequence, a hic-cup tricking an ecg into a faster count ?

It is (for me) just in the right atrium.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

thank you Carl, I hope it all works out well for you.

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni. wrote:
On Jun 9, 6:33 am, --D-y wrote:

We don't have a Truth Machine. Until we do (I hope never), doping is
an unsolvable problem.


Dumbass -

It's not possible. People's memories range from perfect (a small
minority) to completely delusional. There's a portion of the brain
that alters memories as a coping mechanism. Some brains use it only
for coping w/ truly traumatic events while other brains run all
memories through it.

That's absolutely true. It's also true that most everyone classifies
their own memory as the former, rather than the latter. Which is fine
until someone points out that you've been a Miami Dolphin fan your whole
life and you've got to perform awkward mental gymnastics to rationalize
the coping mechanisms.

On Jun 10, 12:23*am, Kyle Legate wrote:
wrote:
pain is why I don't get on my bike and make an effort to get my hrm to
show me a max that is one beat higher than what I am used to- it's
hard, it hurts and I don't want to cross that line even though I might
get a better time and that pushing myself to that extent shouldn't
harm me- that's my breaking point even though I think I could go a few
beats higher, much less just one. I think the same deal basically
applies to just about anyone.

No, you're just weak. I have the impression that I can suffer more than
when I was younger, because I have developed the mental toughness
required to say "the pain is temporary, **** the pain". Hence the
bizarrely high heart rate I quoted earlier in the thread, which is a few
beats higher than I ever recorded when I was younger and racing.

you are proving my point

On 6/9/09 7:50 PM, in article , "Carl Sundquist"
wrote:


Yeah, I am. It started affecting me on the bike in August of '07 in a
relatively minor way. Ran a slew of tests that Fall, but it seemed to
go away after resting in the off season. Was scheduled to have an
ablation in March of last year, but between not having much
recurrence, some of the risks of radio frequency (burning) ablation,
and not keen on a 6 month regimen of Coumadin/Warfarin, I chose to
postpone the procedure.

Carl,

I take 8mg of Warfarin each day. My cardiologist said I shouldn't ride. But
my hematologist, who used to ride and is a prof at UCSF, said cardiologists
always overestimate the effects of Warfarin/Coumadin. He said there is some
real risk with riding while taking Warfarin, but that if riding is a big
part of my life (which it is), I need to decide if the risk is worth it. His
key suggestions include:

-Don't race.

-Don't descend super quickly.
(But climb as fast as you can)

-Don't do field sprints on group rides.
(If there's a small group of people I trust on a group ride, I will
sometimes lead out a sprint, though)

-Don't ride with or near poor bike handlers.

-Ride with thicker, bigger tires to reduce chance of sudden front blow-out.
(I use 700x25 Continental Grand Prix 4000 or 4 Season tires).

-Don't ride in the rain.

-If I crash, hit my head, and see stars, get to a hospital right away.

-Wear a medical ID (I do that all the time, even off the bike).


I can still ride what I think of as fast, and I still have fun. I am taking
a bit more risk, but since I ride with care, I'm willing to accept the risk.
Most of the time...I have dropped out of group rides when I think someone is
too sketchy...


Good luck with your treatment. Hope this helps at least a little...

Jim
PS- I don't check messages sent directly to this email address. Too much
spam. But I'm not hard to find on the internet...
--
Jim Feeley
POV Media