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How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?



 
 
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  #151  
Old January 28th 09, 01:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

On Jan 27, 4:22*pm, "
wrote:
On Jan 26, 1:36*pm, Andre Jute wrote:



On Jan 25, 4:01*pm, Lou Holtman wrote:


Frank Krygowski schreef:
Frank Krygowski schreef:


On Jan 25, 7:32 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Clive George schreef:


"terryc" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:53:04 -0800, Frank Krygowski wrote:
But I agree that riders may want different choices. *Maybe the
ultimate is a custom bike with all accessories you want designed and
built as a system... for those who can afford such a thing.
Different people, = different touring = different bicycles.
The Q is "Is there enough people who want a particular combo to justify it
being prebuilt"?
I'd suggest that if it was, then it would have been already done..
And it has - just in places where cyling for transport is the norm, not the
exception.
Indeed. As a Dutchman I scratch my head everytime when I see what is
considered a commuter bike in the US.


But aren't some of the differences explained by the Netherlands' dead
flat terrain and much shorter commuting distances?


My commuter, modified and used for 30+ years, works very well for my 7
mile (each way) ride with the long climb out of the valley. *I
wouldn't want to haul a standard Dutch bike up that hill, nor ride at
the slow speed such a bike promotes.


- Frank Krygowski


Frank, I'm not talking about a city bike. A 7 mile commute is even in
the Netherlands very common. I live close to my work and I have to ride
10 km one way. Yes it's dead flat out here but most commuter bikes have
3x9 gears (I don't know why but still) or a 8 speed gearhub, but they
also have standard fenders, full light system, luggage rack, chaincase,
kickstand, pump, saddlebag etc. People would not accept a bike with less.


Lou


And a frame lock. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
fitted frame locks as standard. I was annoyed when my new German bike
came without a lock. It isn't the extra expense but the nuisance of
having to order the thing.


And coat protectors. Both my Dutch town and country bikes came with
coat protectors too. My new German bike could do with those too, even
after I fit spoilers and crud-catchers to the mudguards.


It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.


I commute in cycling clothes. *Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. *The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. *No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. *Might as well drive the car.


The very purpose of my bicycle is to raise my respiration rate to an
aerobic level and keep it there for forty minutes or longer (with a
ten minute break in every hour for longer rides). That means a light
film of sweat.

So what if you are sweaty? It won't smell unless you let it get old.
Anyway, sweat is an honest smell. Americans are far too concerned
about how others perceive them. Douglas Sutherland, with whom I shared
a publisher and delightful lunches whenever we met in London, wrote in
his book An English Gentleman that a gentleman doesn't wear deodorant.
I'm not a gentleman (an intellectual of my stripe can't be) but I
don't see the point of deodorant either.

Furthermore, some of us are lucky. Our sweat conveys the pheromones
which women are attracted to.

In short: I leave hairy footprints where I go, and I see no reason to
become an effete walking perfumery just because I cycle. It's bad
enough that the general public associates men who shave their legs
with me just because I also cycle.

On the other hand, I don't see the point of, as Grant the Rivendell
puts it, cycling in clothes that make your sweat smell worse. If you
insist on lycra and other plastic crap instead of honest cotton, of
course you need to worry about how you smell, because you will smell.

Andre Jute
There's a difference between being civilized and being limp
Ads
  #152  
Old January 28th 09, 01:16 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
Peter Cole[_2_]
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Posts: 4,572
Default Why *the manufacturer* should make every commuter habitable,wasHow come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

Andre Jute wrote:
On Jan 27, 3:30 pm, Peter Cole wrote:


I think this accessories rant is much ado about nothing. My wife
commutes. I built up her bike with a discarded frame, inexpensive MTB
components (V-brakes, trigger shifters, triple chainring), inexpensive
accessories (fenders, mudflaps, rear rack & pannier, front bag, lights,
lock with frame bracket, fat slicks, flip-flop pedals) and she added
rain cape, SPD sandals, helmet cover, rain/wind pants, rain/wind jacket,
gloves and glasses.

The whole setup was very inexpensive and didn't require a great deal of
cleverness. It has proved to be a reliable and convenient commuting and
errand running solution for a few years now.

I suppose a purist would want skirt/coat guards, chainguard, generator
lights and a gearhub. She hasn't found those things to be all that
necessary, but they'd be easy enough to add.


This is one long admission that *your better half* agrees with Lou and
me, and with other sensible RBTers like Jay B from Chicago. She just
hasn't gone all the way, presumably because you've taken a patriarchal
attitude and failed to inform her of all the available options.


She knows about all those options, she has ridden may bikes for many
years, some of which had all those features.


That all these comforts that extend the utility of the bike cost very
little is a point Stephen Scharf has made several times, even putting
a stunningly low figure on what fenders, lights, rack etc would cost
the OEM.

By contrast, it is not difficult to run up a couple of grand in quite
common parts in the aftermarket, as I discovered when recently I
looked into building up a bike on a bought-in frame. I priced the
components on my Gazelle and just the components at retail would have
come to half as much again as the manufacturer's suggested retail
selling price, with a reasonable allowance for the frame to double.


That hasn't been my experience, I've found the additional expenses quite
modest, even for those items those not selected for utility reasons.
  #153  
Old January 28th 09, 01:39 PM posted to alt.war.vietnam,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.racing,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

On Jan 28, 1:18*am, " wrote:
On Jan 27, 7:12*pm, Nate Nagel wrote:



Paul G. wrote:
On Jan 26, 3:38 pm, Michael Press wrote:
In article
,


" wrote:
On Jan 24, 6:24 pm, Chalo wrote:
SMS wrote:
It's really annoying have so few bicycles come standard with basic
accessories, especially on commute and touring bicycles where it's
pretty well accepted that the buyer will be adding things like racks,
fenders, bells, bottle cages, etc. $100 worth of retail accessories
would cost the bicycle manufacturer about $8, which would end up adding
maybe $22-25 to the retail cost. I was kind of impressed that the
Raleigh Sojourn comes with most of that stuff.
Bike manufacturers have a symbiotic relationship with bike retailers,
which are usually service shops as well. *Retailers depend heavily
upon accessory sales. *When I was in the bike shop business, markups
on complete bikes ran in the 35% range, while markups on accessories
were usually 100%. *The margin on bikes might cover the cost of
keeping bikes on the floor, but it was the margin on everything else
that made it plausible to do business.
That's surprising to me (the bike markup, I had an idea what the
component markup was). *Are shops in the habit of selling bikes for
what they paid when they need to get them off the floor for the next
years model? *I think I paid around 65%, maybe 70% of MSRP for my last
bike and often see bikes on sale for 50-60% of MSRP. *I know when a
car dealer tells you they're actually losing money selling you a car
at a certain price it's hot air - do bike shops actually do this?
As an aside, I've never bought a car from a dealership but I've come
close and am ruthless in negotiations (I've also helped others
negotiate cars from dealers). *
I did buy a new car at a dealership; am happy with the car and the
purchase.


Car? I seem to recall that you were going to buy one of them gigantic
gas sucking pickups back when gas was $3.50/gal. *It stuck in my mind
because I thought at the time "This guy is nuts."
-Paul


Well, I too have a gas sucking pickup, but I bought it used and cheap.
Costs me almost nothing in add'l insurance, I think I put about 3K on it
last year, half of that just "taking it out for a spin" to keep
everything well lubed. *But when I need to haul something to the dump,
help clean out a stash of old car parts, pick up some furniture, etc.
it's great to have it around. *Of course I have a driveway that I can
line up 4-5 cars in, not everyone has that luxury. *(that was one of the
selling points of the place, really. *Unfortunately the lot is so small
that I couldn't get one with a driveway two cars wide... that's just
silly extravagant for northern VA) *But it is really nice to have a
spare vehicle and the ability to tow/haul large items (within reason) is
great.


What I don't understand are people who buy something like that and then
drive it every day... *unless you're a contractor or a service tech I'd
think that a nice small car would be so much more relaxing to drive, not
to mention economical.


nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel


I drive a regular cab 4x4 "off-road" model ranger. *It's economical
enough that it makes more sense than having 2 vehicles. *It's small
and nimble enough to be a plenty relaxing drive. *I like being able to
go wheeling on a whim and explore any trail that catches my eye. *I
also like to have a bike, dirt bike or kayak with me in decent weather
and a truck in bad weather. *I wouldn't want a box truck or a cargo
van as a daily driver, but I really like my ranger.


Back about 1972 or so, the Australian Volvo importers made up a
socalled "Surfer's Special", which was a Volvo 144 (or perhaps by then
already a 244) estate car with the rear seats removed, one of Volvo's
superior roofracks (I know it is superior because when our son was
born I bought my wife a Volvo estate to keep him safe), and suchlike
utilitarian fittings. It sounds to me like you need something like
that surfer's Volvo estate.

Andre Jute
Thinking outside the box
  #154  
Old January 28th 09, 02:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

On Jan 27, 5:50*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * " writes:

It really is very useful to be able to ride the bicycle in the same
clothes you will wear to the office, or church, or a restaurant. But
that concept is unknown in America, where cycling is hard and dirty
and lacks the common graces, if our friends here on RBT are
representative witnesses.


We should remember: much of the population of North America
is somewhat rarified and distributed across vast tracts of
real estate. *What is viable for city dwellers may not be so
viable for far-flung folks in the boondocks or penboondocks.
In a way I share those people's frustration, as I live in
a city (Vancouver, BC) but my place of work is way out beyond
the borders of urban civilisation (in the wholesaler/warehouse
netherworld of United Blvd in Coquitlam, BC.) *So I resort to
public transit, which itself inflicts a 1.25 hour one-way commute
onto my daily routine.

I commute in cycling clothes. *Sweating in the clothes I will wear all
day at work is not for me. *The idea of puttering along at such a
pathetic slow speed you would not sweat at all would be torture. *No
joy at all in riding a bike like that. *Might as well drive the car.


I regularly and sweatlessly pass all nearby runners & joggers
while towing a trailerful of wet laundry on my return home from
the laundromat. *If I can pass /them/, I don't consider myself
to be "puttering along." *If the bicycle makes me faster than
I'd be by walking or running, it's doing its job.

Anyway, it seems to me Andre is talking about bikes more
purpose-built for intra-urban uses than for commuting. *


Reread what you aid above about distances, Tom. To a European,
commuting and what you call "intra-urban" use is the same thing. For
an American it has overtones of coming by train from Connecticut to
work in Manhattan. It is no surprise that Lou and I and the other
Europeans feel the Americans (and the Canadians too) are talking about
something entirely different when we talk about city bikes: by that we
do mean a commuter's bike, a shopping bike, even a holiday bike, all
in one; a commuter for us is a utility bike, not a long-range tourer.
The Dutch in recent years invented something called a stads-sportief
or town and country bike, which is a city bike as above with slightly
more sporting geometry for faster handling and also the ability to
take a tour with panniers, possibly even a loaded tour because in fact
the wheelbases are not all that short. Such a bike, of which I have
two in ali, would make good allweather commuters even under adverse
conditions (Chicago is an example we've discussed here) and up to much
greater distances than most Europeans actually do ride to work. (I was
surprised to hear how far Lou travels to work.)

My newest bike, the Utopia Kranich, appears to lean the other way. It
is a utility/commuter/world tourer with proven 170kg load capacity and
a very long wheelbase to preserve the rider's comfort for many hours
on the road day after day, load distribution, and so on. It makes a
weight saving (over the ali Dutch bikes) by clever use of steel and
throwing money at various areas of the bike (a SON hub dynamo at three
times the price of Shimano one, to save a few grammes, as an example
of a consistent programme ruthlessly applied -- these people tell you
what your paint choice will weigh!) and by leaving off some of the
luxuries of the Dutch bikes (coat protectors, a frame lock). The
longer wheelbase does make it slightly less nippy in traffic (and the
Rohloff gearbox is no slick jewel of a close-ratio roadburner from a
low speed either) but it is time anyway to adapt my riding style to
the dignity of a greybeard.

And
it's ridiculous to get all kitted-out for a 3 or 5 klik run
in the pouring rain to the supermarket or laundromat or
Dairy Queen. *Heck, that's not even worth changing shoes for.


Yeah, I work in my studio or study at home but when I want to go for a
ride, or am sent to buy milk, I just want to put on my shoes (I go
barefoot or wear pseudo-clogs or sandals most of the time) and go in
whatever I'm standing up in.

For a city dweller with destinations within the city, it
just feels so free to be able to just hop on and go.
(Maybe after donning a rain cape & spats.)


Thanks for reminding me that I have a rain cape. Spats be damned;
while the weather is still cold enough to wear longjohns, my trousers
can get splashed for an hour or two without my knees becoming cold.

cheers,
* * * * Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca


Off to ride!

Andre Jute
http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/Andre%20Jute's%20Utopia%20Kranich.pdf
  #155  
Old January 28th 09, 03:27 PM posted to alt.war.vietnam,rec.bicycles.tech,rec.bicycles.racing,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
[email protected]
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Posts: 1,299
Default How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

On Jan 28, 8:39 am, Andre Jute wrote:
On Jan 28, 1:18 am, " wrote:
I drive a regular cab 4x4 "off-road" model ranger. It's economical
enough that it makes more sense than having 2 vehicles. It's small
and nimble enough to be a plenty relaxing drive. I like being able to
go wheeling on a whim and explore any trail that catches my eye. I
also like to have a bike, dirt bike or kayak with me in decent weather
and a truck in bad weather. I wouldn't want a box truck or a cargo
van as a daily driver, but I really like my ranger.


Back about 1972 or so, the Australian Volvo importers made up a
socalled "Surfer's Special", which was a Volvo 144 (or perhaps by then
already a 244) estate car with the rear seats removed, one of Volvo's
superior roofracks (I know it is superior because when our son was
born I bought my wife a Volvo estate to keep him safe), and suchlike
utilitarian fittings. It sounds to me like you need something like
that surfer's Volvo estate.


I don't think it'd be all that easy to load a dirt bike into something
like that. While kayaks can go on the roof, the ease of just tossing
them into the bed is really nice. Then there's towing larger boats,
and the constant home depot runs that come with owning a fixer upper
(although finally almost done!) of a house. Also, I live in NH - 4x4
is nice for the really snowy days. And this is without factoring in
the 4-wheeling. I've done some in cars, but a truck, especially one
with good sized tires (31" from the factory on mine) and good ground
clearance is really preferred.

I don't expect or want to make a vehicle choice for anybody else, but
for me a small pickup makes sense. I think I paid 2500 for my 98 a
couple years ago without the tree and rock shaped body modifications
it has now - if I could have found it with those already installed I'd
have gotten it for even less.

Cost since then has been very minimal. I've replaced a drive shaft, a
control arm, U-joints and the 4x4 hubs. Total cost is well under $1K,
and the first 2 were results of abuse off-roading. You play, you pay
Ė canít hold it against the truck. It had bad hubs when I got it, but
the vacuum pulse system in that year (and the year after) are of
horrible design. The new hubs were around $150, installed in an hour
or two at a leisurely pace and are worth 3x that to me. I broke one U-
joint with the shaft and decided to do them both while I had the shaft
out anyway. For a 3-year cost of under $3500 and a vehicle that's
still going strong, it'd be hard to beat.

I don't drive a ton, and the 20ish MPH it gets when not in 4WD is fine
for me. When it is in 4WD it needs to be and fuel economy is not a
factor. I've never driven it in 4WD long enough to know what it gets
for mileage in 4x4, but whatever it is it's better than being stuck or
wrecking it.

http://tinyurl.com/7qmb9l
http://tinyurl.com/ach9um

Yup... I love my truck.
  #156  
Old February 2nd 09, 05:10 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
OldRoads OldRoads is offline
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Posts: 193
Default How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

On Jan 25, 5:34*pm, "ATP*" wrote:
"Lou Holtman" wrote in message

...





Frank Krygowski schreef:
Frank Krygowski schreef:
On Jan 25, 7:32 am, Lou Holtman wrote:
Clive George schreef:


"terryc" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 17:53:04 -0800, Frank Krygowski wrote:
But I agree that riders may want different choices. *Maybe the
ultimate is a custom bike with all accessories you want designed and
built as a system... for those who can afford such a thing.
Different people, = different touring = different bicycles.
The Q is "Is there enough people who want a particular combo to
justify it
being prebuilt"?
I'd suggest that if it was, then it would have been already done.
And it has - just in places where cyling for transport is the norm, not
the
exception.
Indeed. As a Dutchman I scratch my head everytime when I see what is
considered a commuter bike in the US.


But aren't some of the differences explained by the Netherlands' dead
flat terrain and much shorter commuting distances?


My commuter, modified and used for 30+ years, works very well for my 7
mile (each way) ride with the long climb out of the valley. *I
wouldn't want to haul a standard Dutch bike up that hill, nor ride at
the slow speed such a bike promotes.


- Frank Krygowski


Frank, I'm not talking about a city bike. A 7 mile commute is even in the
Netherlands very common. I live close to my work and I have to ride 10 km
one way. Yes it's dead flat out here but most commuter bikes have 3x9
gears (I don't know why but still) or a 8 speed gearhub, but they also
have standard fenders, full light system, luggage rack, chaincase,
kickstand, pump, saddlebag etc. People would not accept a bike with less.


It's just vanity here in the US. How much does a kickstand really slow you
down? Fenders are also practical but most riders want to get as far away as
possible from anything that looks like an old fuddy-duddy bike.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I have a used bike shop in Cambridge, MA and almost all of the bikes
already have kickstands, fenders and some kind of rack or basket.
People like to buy them that way - a bike, ready for a coummute.
On the clothing topic. Somebody tell me why some people wear biking
shorts to a bike show even though they drove there?

Vin - Menotomy Vintage Bicycles
http://OldRoads.com
  #157  
Old February 3rd 09, 10:19 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
Opus[_2_]
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Posts: 414
Default How come bicycle clothing looks so silly?

On Feb 2, 5:10 pm, OldRoads wrote:

I have a used bike shop in Cambridge, MA and almost all of the bikes
already have kickstands, fenders and some kind of rack or basket.
People like to buy them that way - a bike, ready for a coummute.
On the clothing topic. Somebody tell me why some people wear biking
shorts to a bike show even though they drove there?

Vin - Menotomy Vintage Bicycleshttp://OldRoads.com


Well if I was going to a bike show and thought there might be a bike I
wanted to test ride I might wear bike shorts. That is if I still had
any padded bike shorts. I have spandex shorts but none of them have
pads.
 




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