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#111
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2018-02-11 10:17, sms wrote:
On 2/11/2018 10:03 AM, Joerg wrote: snip Does it at least have a low-battery warning? Yes, the LEDs get dimmer. Great. So yet another flawed design. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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#112
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2018-02-11 12:33, sms wrote:
On 2/11/2018 10:26 AM, Ralph Barone wrote: Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-11 09:28, sms wrote: On 2/11/2018 8:19 AM, Joerg wrote: snip Or in my case real electrical systems such as cars had them for decades. Though I was surprised how few cyclists do this and that still holds true today. Most just have blinkers with some tiny AAA cells in there. The designers of those things usually weren't even smart enough to integrate a low-battery warning so I often see riders where the rear light has fizzled to the power of a glowing cigarette tip. Those AAA cell lights are really annoying. My favorite tail light is the CatEye TL-LD1100 which uses two AA cells. It also is one of the few tail lights that still has side-pointing LEDs as well are rear pointing LEDs. Still available from Asia. https://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/CATEYE-Bike-Bicycle-6-LED-Rear-Tail-Laser-Light-Bike-Back-Red-Light-Safety-Warning-Flashing/434036_32786881487.html. Does it at least have a low-battery warning? Sure. There are six red LEDs at the back of the unit. When they get really dim, your battery is low. LOL, that's what I said. PS: What is the use of a low battery indicator on a device that is mounted where you can't see it? Simple: When clicking the light on you must stand over it or near it. It could, for example, issue three short flashes after turn-on for batt-ok, two flashes for "enough but not for more than a few hours" and on flash for "it'll be empty very soon". True. Plus sticking a couple of AA cells in your tool bag is not a big deal. And then the light gets dimmer and dimmer and runs out while on a long ride. Running wires all over the bicycle to power lights from a central power source has its drawbacks. My road bike even has wires inside the tubes. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#113
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 10:55:40 AM UTC-5, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-12 00:13, John B. wrote: On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 13:33:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/11/2018 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-10 18:25, John B. wrote: On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote: Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it. I agree with this. But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike as you observe. I've done this many times with friends. Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power to make you safe. I had plenty of opportunity to compare StVZO tail lights versus the over there "illegal" lights such as PDW DangerZone or Radbot. HUGE difference in visibility. Joerg, I don't think anyone disagrees that super-bright, non-compliant, glaring lights make you more visible. Using an aircraft landing light would make you more visible. Using an emergency vehicle light bar http://www.fleetsafety.com/federal-s...led-light-bar/ would make you more visible. What many people are arguing is that your extremes are not necessary and not even appropriate. They are detrimental to other road users, including other cyclists, and their promotion constitutes more fear mongering. You're being no smarter than the asses who always drive their jacked-up pickups with high beams, light bars and fog lights glaring. It's MFFY behavior. A bicyclist does NOT need headlights as bright as those on a 75 mph car, just as he does not need 10 gauge spokes, motorcycle-strength chains, solid flat-proof tires or all the other extreme equipment you call for. - Frank Krygowski In the morning I see 20 or 25 bicycles in my "hood" every day and to date I've yet to see a light turned on although nearly all of them have a dynamo and head light mounted on the front wheel, and even with the fleets of motorcycle taxi's and the kids going to school and all the folks buying their daily provisions I've yet to see a bicycle collide with anything. How can this be" No lights and no collisions? Can be summed up in one expression: Safety in numbers. We don't have that in most of America. People are more lazy and human-powered propelling is frowned upon as too stressful and too lowly. So hardly anyone does it and car drivers do not anticipate a cyclist. Most towns have mode shares between 0% and 1%. Classic example yesterday. A driver in a parking lot pulled out, me full brakes, she was sorry, nothing happened. She had clearly seen me because 8W into an LED can't be missed. She probably just didn't know that cyclists can be a lot faster in their approach than a pedestrian. How odd. Your 8 Watt daytime running light didn't prevent a near collision. Yet I never ride without a daytime running light, and I never suffer your near misses. Of course, I tend to use a very conspicuous lane position. You've argued that you need to ride in the gutter. - Frank Krygowski |
#114
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 3:13:46 AM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 11 Feb 2018 13:33:47 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/11/2018 10:55 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-10 18:25, John B. wrote: On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 19:25:57 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote: On 2/10/2018 4:03 PM, Joerg wrote: Everyone installing a high-powered LED light on a bicycle, front or rear, should walk towards their lit bike during daylight and then again at night. If the light is annoying, do something about it. I agree with this. But I'd add, before buying high powered LED lights, check out any more ordinary lights you have in a similar way. Have a friend ride your bike as you observe. I've done this many times with friends. Contrary to current myths, you do not need super-powerful lights to be plenty visible. Any headlight that shows the road sufficiently will be perfectly visible to motorists, and taillights need far, far less power to make you safe. I had plenty of opportunity to compare StVZO tail lights versus the over there "illegal" lights such as PDW DangerZone or Radbot. HUGE difference in visibility. Joerg, I don't think anyone disagrees that super-bright, non-compliant, glaring lights make you more visible. Using an aircraft landing light would make you more visible. Using an emergency vehicle light bar http://www.fleetsafety.com/federal-s...led-light-bar/ would make you more visible. What many people are arguing is that your extremes are not necessary and not even appropriate. They are detrimental to other road users, including other cyclists, and their promotion constitutes more fear mongering. You're being no smarter than the asses who always drive their jacked-up pickups with high beams, light bars and fog lights glaring. It's MFFY behavior. A bicyclist does NOT need headlights as bright as those on a 75 mph car, just as he does not need 10 gauge spokes, motorcycle-strength chains, solid flat-proof tires or all the other extreme equipment you call for. - Frank Krygowski In the morning I see 20 or 25 bicycles in my "hood" every day and to date I've yet to see a light turned on although nearly all of them have a dynamo and head light mounted on the front wheel, and even with the fleets of motorcycle taxi's and the kids going to school and all the folks buying their daily provisions I've yet to see a bicycle collide with anything. How can this be" No lights and no collisions? What's the street lighting like? In many city areas, lighting is bright enough that bicyclists can be visible even without lights. Not that I recommend riding without lights - but it can be survivable. - Frank Krygowski |
#115
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2/12/2018 7:58 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2018-02-11 10:15, sms wrote: On 2/11/2018 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote: That is how I used dynamos in the past and would like to do that again. However, in the US it is hard to find a reasonably priced complete front wheel with a hub dynamo and I don't want to spoke up my own. So it'll have to be a bottle dynamo (rollers went the way of the dinosuars) and then I'd like to try Frank's mode with an O-ring and run it on the brake surface nstead of the tire. If we were ever to move to dynamos in the U.S. it would require that bicycle manufacturers have their dealers offer a dynamo wheel upgrade and light on new bikes at a reasonable price. Spending $200 on a new wheel and another $200 on a decent dynamo light is just not going to happen for almost anyone. Yet the extra cost to a bicycle manufacturer would be small, $50 max for a higher-end SP or Shimano dynamo plus a 200 lumen headlight and a tail light. The shop could mark it up to $100. You are right, it's not going to happen in the US. Mostly because the majority of riders sees their bikes as fitness training devices and not as transportation for use at any time of the day or night. If you exclude small kids bikes, it may still be a majority, but not as large as you think, depending on the area. On weekdays, there is a big transportational cycling percentage, almost certainly much larger than recreational riders, and I'm including students riding to school. |
#116
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2/12/2018 8:03 AM, Joerg wrote:
snip Simple: When clicking the light on you must stand over it or near it. It could, for example, issue three short flashes after turn-on for batt-ok, two flashes for "enough but not for more than a few hours" and on flash for "it'll be empty very soon". That's reasonable for a USB powered light with Li-Ion batteries. For a device running on AA or AAA batteries, not really, because different chemistry AA batteries have very different voltages and discharge curves. Battery voltage for primary D, C, AA, AAA, AAAA cells: Alkaline-manganese dioxide: 1.5V. Linear voltage degradation NiMH: 1.2V with almost do voltage degradation until fully discharged. Primary Lithium (LiFeS2): up to 1.83V, typically 1.7V, discharged if 1.6V or less. Decreasing voltage during discharge, not quite linear. I have seen a device where there was a switch to flip for NiMH versus Alkaline to account for the different voltages in order to provide a more accurate low battery warning, though no option for LiFeS2. |
#117
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2018-02-12 08:40, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 7:58 AM, Joerg wrote: On 2018-02-11 10:15, sms wrote: On 2/11/2018 10:02 AM, Joerg wrote: That is how I used dynamos in the past and would like to do that again. However, in the US it is hard to find a reasonably priced complete front wheel with a hub dynamo and I don't want to spoke up my own. So it'll have to be a bottle dynamo (rollers went the way of the dinosuars) and then I'd like to try Frank's mode with an O-ring and run it on the brake surface nstead of the tire. If we were ever to move to dynamos in the U.S. it would require that bicycle manufacturers have their dealers offer a dynamo wheel upgrade and light on new bikes at a reasonable price. Spending $200 on a new wheel and another $200 on a decent dynamo light is just not going to happen for almost anyone. Yet the extra cost to a bicycle manufacturer would be small, $50 max for a higher-end SP or Shimano dynamo plus a 200 lumen headlight and a tail light. The shop could mark it up to $100. You are right, it's not going to happen in the US. Mostly because the majority of riders sees their bikes as fitness training devices and not as transportation for use at any time of the day or night. If you exclude small kids bikes, it may still be a majority, but not as large as you think, depending on the area. On weekdays, there is a big transportational cycling percentage, almost certainly much larger than recreational riders, and I'm including students riding to school. Yes, students must be included because that is clearly commuting. Hwoever, the percentage of kids cycling to our local high school is practically zero. In part because the two-lane roads going there have no shoulder and are dangerous for cyclists. I wouldn't encourage kids to use those. Down in the valley where they have wider roads, bike lanes and bike path systems I see a slowly increasing number of high school kids use a bike. Still, a lot more training riders in fancy jerseys. Most go in evenings and some as a lunch hour ride. It was the same at the company I used to work at, numerous lunch hour riders but nobody commuted by bike. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#118
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2018-02-12 08:51, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 8:03 AM, Joerg wrote: snip Simple: When clicking the light on you must stand over it or near it. It could, for example, issue three short flashes after turn-on for batt-ok, two flashes for "enough but not for more than a few hours" and on flash for "it'll be empty very soon". That's reasonable for a USB powered light with Li-Ion batteries. For a device running on AA or AAA batteries, not really, because different chemistry AA batteries have very different voltages and discharge curves. Battery voltage for primary D, C, AA, AAA, AAAA cells: Alkaline-manganese dioxide: 1.5V. Linear voltage degradation NiMH: 1.2V with almost do voltage degradation until fully discharged. Primary Lithium (LiFeS2): up to 1.83V, typically 1.7V, discharged if 1.6V or less. Decreasing voltage during discharge, not quite linear. I have seen a device where there was a switch to flip for NiMH versus Alkaline to account for the different voltages in order to provide a more accurate low battery warning, though no option for LiFeS2. You could provide a zero-cost alkaline-NiMH function swap by, for example, pressing the on-off button for 3sec. Not necessary though because more rear lights are a bit dim with 1.2V NiMH and I bet 99% of riders use AAA cells. So just provide a lo-bat warning for alkaline and that goes a long way. Of course, for that to work the IC designers must be competent enough to include a decent bandgap reference. You wouldn't believe how many aren't. It doesn't have to be accurate, just ballpark. Mainly because almost nobody remembers how many hours the recent set of batteries has been used. Another near-zero cost method would be to provide a coarse timer. 5h-10-15h-20h-25h. Simple RC or relaxation oscillator, one through five flashes for status, done. Or just count the number of blinks. Serious riders know how long batteries of their choice will last so they can then decide at 15h or 20h to change them out. Product design can be quite simple and cheap if we just think outside the box and most of all try the designed products ourselves. A bike accessory manufacturer should preferably hire ... riders. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
#119
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 7:56:20 AM UTC-8, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 7:20 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:25:55 AM UTC-8, sms wrote: On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote: No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are visible from 500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow Californians' impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature 5000 ft+ visibility are preferable. And he is trying to confuse what can actually be powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on inspecified cycles in traffic. The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one that is visible in the daytime as well. You don't need a 1500 lumen tail light, but many are ridiculously weak, 10 lumens, or even less. I don't know if I've seen a StVZO tail light, but I've see a lot that are invisible either by design or because of dying batteries and a lot that are too bright to ride behind at night. Most fall somewhere in between and are plentiful -- from PDW, Lesyne, L&M, etc. The chronically nervous sometimes have two or three tail lights, which is kind of humorous -- unless they're blinding. Again, in sunshine, I always see the jersey first. I ride up behind someone and notice the tail light when I'm five feet away. It's like a fashion accessory. "Seeing the jersey first" is great if you're riding with recreational riders all wearing yellow or orange fluorescent jerseys. For transportational cycling, which there's a lot of in my area, the riders aren't typically wearing highly visible clothes like that. That's fine, and around here, people don't worry. I'm saying if you worry about being seen, be visible. Lights aren't as good as high-viz clothing in daytime. Typical PDX garb: http://deepgreenmovie.com/wp-content...PDX-Bikers.jpg Who is most visible? Note absence of DRLs. The key to getting more people out on bicycles is to promote equipment that allows them to ride to work or school in normal clothes, and provide routes that make the ride practical. If you've been to Palo Alto, the cross-town bicycle boulevard is probably about the most usable infrastructure I've seen, and there is no bicycle lane. It continues through Mountain View. We are working on a bicycle boulevard system for Cupertino, and in the last election, the two winners were both in favor of this, while the other three serious candidates had no interest in bicycle infrastructure at all. I have been trying to get a bicycle light giveaway going, even though most riders could afford lights they don't get them. Especially bad is students riding to school in the early morning when it's dark. You need lights to see when it is dark and to be seen when it is dark or overcast, assuming you're not wearing bright clothes. A light is useless on sunny days, except in rare instances with hard dappled light caused by tree canopy or similar conditions generally lacking from inner-cities where all the "transportational" cyclists ride. -- Jay Beattie. |
#120
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Battery Replacement on Lights with Internal Li-Ion Batteries
On 2018-02-12 07:56, sms wrote:
On 2/12/2018 7:20 AM, jbeattie wrote: On Monday, February 12, 2018 at 5:25:55 AM UTC-8, sms wrote: On 2/12/2018 5:00 AM, Sepp Ruf wrote: No, Joerg is claiming that ordinary StVZO tail lights that are visible from 500 meters in Europe are not good enough for his and fellow Californians' impaired sense of vision, and why he feels tail lights that feature 5000 ft+ visibility are preferable. And he is trying to confuse what can actually be powered by dynamo with what he "remembers" seeing, back then, on inspecified cycles in traffic. The StVZO lights are woefully inadequate. Don't forget that you need one that is visible in the daytime as well. You don't need a 1500 lumen tail light, but many are ridiculously weak, 10 lumens, or even less. That was also my impression. I thought LED technology would have made them better but maybe they reduced the power so much that it didn't increase brightness much. A bicycle rear light must be as bright as a motorcycle rear light, else the risk of being rear-ended increases, as does the number of close calls. Most of all it must be as wide because motorists often subconsciously gauge their distance to other vehicles in front by the "fatness" of the lights. I don't know if I've seen a StVZO tail light, but I've see a lot that are invisible either by design or because of dying batteries and a lot that are too bright to ride behind at night. Most fall somewhere in between and are plentiful -- from PDW, Lesyne, L&M, etc. The chronically nervous sometimes have two or three tail lights, which is kind of humorous -- unless they're blinding. Again, in sunshine, I always see the jersey first. I ride up behind someone and notice the tail light when I'm five feet away. It's like a fashion accessory. "Seeing the jersey first" is great if you're riding with recreational riders all wearing yellow or orange fluorescent jerseys. For transportational cycling, which there's a lot of in my area, the riders aren't typically wearing highly visible clothes like that. The key to getting more people out on bicycles is to promote equipment that allows them to ride to work or school in normal clothes, and provide routes that make the ride practical. Amen! Many people do not understand this and that includes a lot here in the NG. If you've been to Palo Alto, the cross-town bicycle boulevard is probably about the most usable infrastructure I've seen, and there is no bicycle lane. A bicycle boulevard without a bicycle lane? What is a bicycle boulevard then? scratching head ... It continues through Mountain View. We are working on a bicycle boulevard system for Cupertino, and in the last election, the two winners were both in favor of this, while the other three serious candidates had no interest in bicycle infrastructure at all. Those three others are unfortunately typical, sounds like our village :-( I have been trying to get a bicycle light giveaway going, even though most riders could afford lights they don't get them. Especially bad is students riding to school in the early morning when it's dark. Won't help much. I dread going through Davis with my car but sometimes had to because of carrying a heavy load. At night cyclists dart around willy-nilly. Traffic rules? Red lights? Phhht, that ain't meanin' nuthin'. Many have rear lights and they are mostly either off or are very dim and have depleted alkalines in them that have been leaking for weeks. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ |
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