Frame Id Help Needed

I have aquired a pretty neat lugged steel frame of uncertain heritage.
Here are some clues, can you help.

Poorly painted? repainted? orange/red with Paramount Team Schwinn
decals:
http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...nt_rainbow.php

The bottom bracket shell is stamped Cinelli with the New Style logo, ??
after sale to Colombo family??? Also has number 454 under the logo
stamped in the frame. Columbus tubing dove stamped on steerer tube with
the 454 stamped there too. Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.

Frame stamped on the non-drive side, above the rear drop out where the
seat and chain stays meet: J833? (Can't make last number). Rear
dropouts are chrome, Campy and nearly horizontal. Fork drop outs are
also chrome Campy.

Campy BB and headset. Downtube shifter mount points are part of the
frame, not chrome wrap around... Frame pump pin on headtube, three
brake cable guides on top of the top tube. Shifter cable routing above
the BB and looks like part of the lug. No chrome other than chain stay.

Love a mystery! If you want to help, I'll take pictures for you. Would
appreciate any info and/or links to websites.

Thanks for reading!

Glenn

wrote:
On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:11:27 -0400, Glenn OConnor
wrote:

I have aquired a pretty neat lugged steel frame of uncertain heritage.
Here are some clues, can you help.

Poorly painted? repainted? orange/red with Paramount Team Schwinn
decals:
http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...nt_rainbow.php

The bottom bracket shell is stamped Cinelli with the New Style logo, ??
after sale to Colombo family??? Also has number 454 under the logo
stamped in the frame. Columbus tubing dove stamped on steerer tube with
the 454 stamped there too. Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.

Frame stamped on the non-drive side, above the rear drop out where the
seat and chain stays meet: J833? (Can't make last number). Rear
dropouts are chrome, Campy and nearly horizontal. Fork drop outs are
also chrome Campy.

Campy BB and headset. Downtube shifter mount points are part of the
frame, not chrome wrap around... Frame pump pin on headtube, three
brake cable guides on top of the top tube. Shifter cable routing above
the BB and looks like part of the lug. No chrome other than chain stay.

Love a mystery! If you want to help, I'll take pictures for you. Would
appreciate any info and/or links to websites.

Thanks for reading!

Glenn

Dear Glenn,

If RBT regulars can't identify your bike, try this place:
http://oldroads.com/

They have a picture and detail database:
http://oldroads.com/index.html#mvb_pd

And you can just ask on the vintage lightweights discussion area:
http://oldroads.com/d_ltw_def.asp?rec_count=1

Cheers,

Carl Fogel
Thanks!

Glenn

On Mar 16, 12:11*pm, Glenn OConnor wrote:
I have aquired a pretty neat lugged steel frame of uncertain heritage.
Here are some clues, can you help.

Poorly painted? repainted? orange/red with Paramount Team Schwinn
decals:http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...ramount_rainbo...

The bottom bracket shell is stamped Cinelli with the New Style logo, ??
after sale to Colombo family??? *Also has number 454 under the logo
stamped in the frame. *Columbus tubing dove stamped on steerer tube with
the 454 stamped there too. *Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.

Frame stamped on the non-drive side, above the rear drop out where the
seat and chain stays meet: J833? (Can't make last number). *Rear
dropouts are chrome, Campy and nearly horizontal. *Fork drop outs are
also chrome Campy.

Campy BB and headset. *Downtube shifter mount points are part of the
frame, not chrome wrap around... *Frame pump pin on headtube, three
brake cable guides on top of the top tube. *Shifter cable routing above
the BB and looks like part of the lug. *No chrome other than chain stay.

Love a mystery! *If you want to help, I'll take pictures for you. *Would
appreciate any info and/or links to websites.

Thanks for reading!

Except for the peculiar serial numbers, you have described 90% of the
Italian bikes imported in to the US during the 80s (and many custom
USA frames). You should post a picture. Are there cut-outs in the BB
or in the lugs? What is the stay design -- fast-back, flat cap, spoons
(like Masi?). Long 1010 drop outs or 1010B? -- Jay Beattie.

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:11:27 -0400, Glenn OConnor
wrote:

I have aquired a pretty neat lugged steel frame of uncertain heritage.
Here are some clues, can you help.

Poorly painted? repainted? orange/red with Paramount Team Schwinn
decals:
http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...nt_rainbow.php

The bottom bracket shell is stamped Cinelli with the New Style logo, ??
after sale to Colombo family??? Also has number 454 under the logo
stamped in the frame. Columbus tubing dove stamped on steerer tube with
the 454 stamped there too. Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.

Frame stamped on the non-drive side, above the rear drop out where the
seat and chain stays meet: J833? (Can't make last number). Rear
dropouts are chrome, Campy and nearly horizontal. Fork drop outs are
also chrome Campy.

Campy BB and headset. Downtube shifter mount points are part of the
frame, not chrome wrap around... Frame pump pin on headtube, three
brake cable guides on top of the top tube. Shifter cable routing above
the BB and looks like part of the lug. No chrome other than chain stay.

Love a mystery! If you want to help, I'll take pictures for you. Would
appreciate any info and/or links to websites.

Thanks for reading!

Glenn

Dear Glenn,

If RBT regulars can't identify your bike, try this place:
http://oldroads.com/

They have a picture and detail database:
http://oldroads.com/index.html#mvb_pd

And you can just ask on the vintage lightweights discussion area:
http://oldroads.com/d_ltw_def.asp?rec_count=1

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Mar 16, 12:11 pm, Glenn OConnor wrote:
I have aquired a pretty neat lugged steel frame of uncertain heritage.
Here are some clues, can you help.

Poorly painted? repainted? orange/red with Paramount Team Schwinn
decals:http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...ramount_rainbo...

The bottom bracket shell is stamped Cinelli with the New Style logo, ??
after sale to Colombo family??? Also has number 454 under the logo
stamped in the frame. Columbus tubing dove stamped on steerer tube with
the 454 stamped there too. Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.

Frame stamped on the non-drive side, above the rear drop out where the
seat and chain stays meet: J833? (Can't make last number). Rear
dropouts are chrome, Campy and nearly horizontal. Fork drop outs are
also chrome Campy.

Campy BB and headset. Downtube shifter mount points are part of the
frame, not chrome wrap around... Frame pump pin on headtube, three
brake cable guides on top of the top tube. Shifter cable routing above
the BB and looks like part of the lug. No chrome other than chain stay.

Love a mystery! If you want to help, I'll take pictures for you. Would
appreciate any info and/or links to websites.

Thanks for reading!

Except for the peculiar serial numbers, you have described 90% of the
Italian bikes imported in to the US during the 80s (and many custom
USA frames). You should post a picture. Are there cut-outs in the BB
or in the lugs? What is the stay design -- fast-back, flat cap, spoons
(like Masi?). Long 1010 drop outs or 1010B? -- Jay Beattie.

Jay, you confirmed my suspicion. If anyone wants to look at the frame
and throw in your two cents, I appreciate your time.

The question is really, Is This A Paramount?

Thanks

Glenn

http://web.mac.com/dabrains/Mystery_...port.html#grid

Glenn OConnor wrote:
I have aquired a pretty neat lugged steel frame of uncertain heritage.
Here are some clues, can you help.
Poorly painted? repainted? orange/red with Paramount Team Schwinn
decals:http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...ramount_rainbo...
The bottom bracket shell is stamped Cinelli with the New Style logo, ??
after sale to Colombo family??? Also has number 454 under the logo
stamped in the frame. Columbus tubing dove stamped on steerer tube with
the 454 stamped there too. Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.
Frame stamped on the non-drive side, above the rear drop out where the
seat and chain stays meet: J833? (Can't make last number). Rear
dropouts are chrome, Campy and nearly horizontal. Fork drop outs are
also chrome Campy.
Campy BB and headset. Downtube shifter mount points are part of the
frame, not chrome wrap around... Frame pump pin on headtube, three
brake cable guides on top of the top tube. Shifter cable routing above
the BB and looks like part of the lug. No chrome other than chain stay.
Love a mystery! If you want to help, I'll take pictures for you. Would
appreciate any info and/or links to websites.

Jay Beattie wrote:
Except for the peculiar serial numbers, you have described 90% of the
Italian bikes imported in to the US during the 80s (and many custom
USA frames). You should post a picture. Are there cut-outs in the BB
or in the lugs? What is the stay design -- fast-back, flat cap, spoons
(like Masi?). Long 1010 drop outs or 1010B? -- Jay Beattie.

Glenn OConnor wrote:
Jay, you confirmed my suspicion. If anyone wants to look at the frame
and throw in your two cents, I appreciate your time.
The question is really, Is This A Paramount?
http://web.mac.com/dabrains/Mystery_...port.html#grid

No.
Mid-80s Italian frameset - could be from any of dozens of builders. Just
not Schwinn Paramount.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Mar 17, 5:10*pm, A Muzi wrote:
Glenn OConnor wrote:
I have aquired a pretty neat lugged steel frame of uncertain heritage.
Here are some clues, can you help.
Poorly painted? repainted? orange/red with Paramount Team Schwinn
decals:http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...ramount_rainbo...
The bottom bracket shell is stamped Cinelli with the New Style logo, ??
after sale to Colombo family??? *Also has number 454 under the logo
stamped in the frame. *Columbus tubing dove stamped on steerer tube with
the 454 stamped there too. *Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.
Frame stamped on the non-drive side, above the rear drop out where the
seat and chain stays meet: J833? (Can't make last number). *Rear
dropouts are chrome, Campy and nearly horizontal. *Fork drop outs are
also chrome Campy.
Campy BB and headset. *Downtube shifter mount points are part of the
frame, not chrome wrap around... *Frame pump pin on headtube, three
brake cable guides on top of the top tube. *Shifter cable routing above
the BB and looks like part of the lug. *No chrome other than chain stay.
Love a mystery! *If you want to help, I'll take pictures for you. *Would
appreciate any info and/or links to websites.
Jay Beattie wrote:
Except for the peculiar serial numbers, you have described 90% of the
Italian bikes imported in to the US during the 80s (and many custom
USA frames). *You should post a picture. Are there cut-outs in the BB
or in the lugs? What is the stay design -- fast-back, flat cap, spoons
(like Masi?). *Long 1010 drop outs or 1010B? -- Jay Beattie.
Glenn OConnor wrote:
Jay, you confirmed my suspicion. *If anyone wants to look at the frame
and throw in your two cents, I appreciate your time.
The question is really, Is This A Paramount?
http://web.mac.com/dabrains/Mystery_...port.html#grid

No.
Mid-80s Italian frameset - could be from any of dozens of builders. Just
not Schwinn Paramount.

Andy, I defer to your vast wealth of bicycle knowledge, but it could
be a custom built American. The seat lug has a higher point that the
usual Italian offerings, and the lugs are thinner. I also don't see
the usual cut outs, stamps, pantographs, logos etc. that were popular
on even the POS Italian frames in the '80s. It has to be someone who
built enough to use a serial number. If it were a big name American
frame, though, I couldn't imagine putting Paramount stickers on it. --
Jay Beattie.

Glenn OConnor wrote:
I have aquired a pretty neat lugged steel frame of uncertain heritage.
Here are some clues, can you help.
Poorly painted? repainted? orange/red with Paramount Team Schwinn
decals:http://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/r...ramount_rainbo...
The bottom bracket shell is stamped Cinelli with the New Style logo, ??
after sale to Colombo family??? Also has number 454 under the logo
stamped in the frame. Columbus tubing dove stamped on steerer tube with
the 454 stamped there too. Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.
Frame stamped on the non-drive side, above the rear drop out where the
seat and chain stays meet: J833? (Can't make last number). Rear
dropouts are chrome, Campy and nearly horizontal. Fork drop outs are
also chrome Campy.
Campy BB and headset. Downtube shifter mount points are part of the
frame, not chrome wrap around... Frame pump pin on headtube, three
brake cable guides on top of the top tube. Shifter cable routing above
the BB and looks like part of the lug. No chrome other than chain stay.
Love a mystery! If you want to help, I'll take pictures for you. Would
appreciate any info and/or links to websites.

Jay Beattie wrote:
Except for the peculiar serial numbers, you have described 90% of the
Italian bikes imported in to the US during the 80s (and many custom
USA frames). You should post a picture. Are there cut-outs in the BB
or in the lugs? What is the stay design -- fast-back, flat cap, spoons
(like Masi?). Long 1010 drop outs or 1010B? -- Jay Beattie.

Glenn OConnor wrote:
Jay, you confirmed my suspicion. If anyone wants to look at the frame
and throw in your two cents, I appreciate your time.
The question is really, Is This A Paramount?
http://web.mac.com/dabrains/Mystery_...port.html#grid

A Muzi wrote:
No.
Mid-80s Italian frameset - could be from any of dozens of builders. Just
not Schwinn Paramount.

Jay Beattie wrote:
Andy, I defer to your vast wealth of bicycle knowledge, but it could
be a custom built American. The seat lug has a higher point that the
usual Italian offerings, and the lugs are thinner. I also don't see
the usual cut outs, stamps, pantographs, logos etc. that were popular
on even the POS Italian frames in the '80s. It has to be someone who
built enough to use a serial number. If it were a big name American
frame, though, I couldn't imagine putting Paramount stickers on it. --


I agree, Jay. Certainly could be a not-Italian Italianate '80s frame,
just not a Schwinn Paramount.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Glenn OConnor wrote:
Some stamped letters above the front brake
holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.


Not BCM? That would be Bocama


--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

On Mar 18, 6:32*am, M-gineering wrote:
Glenn OConnor wrote:

Some stamped letters above the front brake

holes in the fork crown looks like AFM or the like.

Not BCM? That would be Bocama

--
/Marten

info(apestaartje)m-gineering(punt)nl

yup