MTB Tires 4 Deep Slush?

On Friday, January 17, 2014 10:30:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

It's everything in the roadway; dog poop, car and bus
exhaust, debris, oil, coolant, trash, dirt, mixed with salt
and churned to a slush of varying consistency. It hides ice
patches, various depressions (often water filled),
impediments and things both slippery and sharp. As the salt
and snow ratios and the temperature change, it can range
from splashable walls of grey-brown crud coming at you from
passing vehicles (amazingly dense) to hard ridges made by
tires which can impede normal steering.

Well, it's Madison's fault for not planning ahead like Copenhagen did. Copenhagen, you see, arranged for snow accumulation beyond an inch or so to be uncommon, and for deep snow to be very rare. They also made sure that summer temperatures are very mild, essentially never reaching 90 F.

If we would just "Copenhagenize" that way, all our cities could soon feature nice high bicycle mode shares!

- Frank Krygowski

On 1/17/2014 12:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, January 17, 2014 10:30:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

It's everything in the roadway; dog poop, car and bus
exhaust, debris, oil, coolant, trash, dirt, mixed with salt
and churned to a slush of varying consistency. It hides ice
patches, various depressions (often water filled),
impediments and things both slippery and sharp. As the salt
and snow ratios and the temperature change, it can range
from splashable walls of grey-brown crud coming at you from
passing vehicles (amazingly dense) to hard ridges made by
tires which can impede normal steering.

Well, it's Madison's fault for not planning ahead like Copenhagen did. Copenhagen, you see, arranged for snow accumulation beyond an inch or so to be uncommon, and for deep snow to be very rare. They also made sure that summer temperatures are very mild, essentially never reaching 90 F.

If we would just "Copenhagenize" that way, all our cities could soon feature nice high bicycle mode shares!


When I was young, major streets were plowed intermittently
and then only with deep snowfall. Side streets not.
Intersections were spread with cinders, not salt. People
learned to drive in winter conditions or didn't drive (or
died learning, I presume). The politics of snow have changed.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I developed a pneumonia from blowing dust left on the berm when snowbanks reseeded.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:49:22 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/17/2014 12:21 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Friday, January 17, 2014 10:30:47 AM UTC-5, AMuzi wrote:

It's everything in the roadway; dog poop, car and bus
exhaust, debris, oil, coolant, trash, dirt, mixed with salt
and churned to a slush of varying consistency. It hides ice
patches, various depressions (often water filled),
impediments and things both slippery and sharp. As the salt
and snow ratios and the temperature change, it can range
from splashable walls of grey-brown crud coming at you from
passing vehicles (amazingly dense) to hard ridges made by
tires which can impede normal steering.

Well, it's Madison's fault for not planning ahead like Copenhagen did. Copenhagen, you see, arranged for snow accumulation beyond an inch or so to be uncommon, and for deep snow to be very rare. They also made sure that summer temperatures are very mild, essentially never reaching 90 F.

If we would just "Copenhagenize" that way, all our cities could soon feature nice high bicycle mode shares!


When I was young, major streets were plowed intermittently
and then only with deep snowfall. Side streets not.
Intersections were spread with cinders, not salt. People
learned to drive in winter conditions or didn't drive (or
died learning, I presume). The politics of snow have changed.


And, cinders are probably a bit hard to come by these days of "oil
heating" :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:13:35 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:50:25 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:47:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

There're tires for nearly every use. Is there one that's really good a
giving traction in the deep brown greasy slush that occurs when deep
snow is simply salted before it's plowed? Even studded tires don't grip
in that crap. Maybee a tire with long spikes to penetrate the crap might
do it but brake bridges and chanstay bridges get in the way. Any great
tire design that will give traction in that goop? Those super wide 29
tires need not apply as they won't fit a normal frame made for 26" MTB tires.

Cheers

Err... the "brown greasy" stuff isn't snow :-)

Snow is white, or if a lot of male dogs and children are around
sometimes yellow. But never brown.

Not snow. Slush. Created just as described. Even more fun when the
temperature drops and it freezes over.

I know, I was just being a wise-ass :-)

But I'm puzzled. You say spread salt but not plowed? I've never seen
that. I have seen the snow plow truck also tow a salt spreader but
never just the salt. I'd thing it would be counter productive - say 1
foot of snow; pioneer through with a truck spreading salt and than go
back and plow it sometime later?


Probably two different unions and the salt spreaders get out first. Lol.

Anyway if you've ever been around a place with a lot of snow you know it's
only white until the traffic comes. Goes from beautiful to grungy in one
good rush hour.

Well, I was born and grew up in a little country town in up-state New
Hampshire and lived there until I went to collage, and a decade, or so
later, I spent a couple of years in Bangor, Maine, so I've seen snow
:-)

As I remember, it was white stuff, and our snow stayed white even
after traffic. But our little town had a pretty efficient snow plowing
program and generally the downtown area would be bare, or pretty bare,
of snow by the time that people started to come to work in the
morning. I don't remember a "rush hour", I don't think we had those
:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:30:47 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/16/2014 6:33 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:47:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

There're tires for nearly every use. Is there one that's really good a giving traction in the deep brown greasy slush that occurs when deep snow is simply salted before it's plowed? Even studded tires don't grip in that crap. Maybee a tire with long spikes to penetrate the crap might do it but brake bridges and chanstay bridges get in the way. Any great tire design that will give traction in that goop? Those super wide 29 tires need not apply as they won't fit a normal frame made for 26" MTB tires.

Cheers

Err... the "brown greasy" stuff isn't snow :-)

Snow is white, or if a lot of male dogs and children are around
sometimes yellow. But never brown.


It's everything in the roadway; dog poop, car and bus
exhaust, debris, oil, coolant, trash, dirt, mixed with salt
and churned to a slush of varying consistency. It hides ice
patches, various depressions (often water filled),
impediments and things both slippery and sharp. As the salt
and snow ratios and the temperature change, it can range
from splashable walls of grey-brown crud coming at you from
passing vehicles (amazingly dense) to hard ridges made by
tires which can impede normal steering.

Sounds horrible.... and reminds me why I elected a small school in
Miami Florida to study at :-) And, except for one stint in Bangor,
Maine at my Uncle's bequest, I never went back except to visit.

I always suspected that the original settlers that moved to those
up-state areas must have been the impoverished and desperate. Who else
would have gone there?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 09:33:18 -0600, AMuzi wrote:

On 1/17/2014 5:35 AM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:50:25 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:47:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

There're tires for nearly every use. Is there one that's really good a
giving traction in the deep brown greasy slush that occurs when deep
snow is simply salted before it's plowed? Even studded tires don't grip
in that crap. Maybee a tire with long spikes to penetrate the crap might
do it but brake bridges and chanstay bridges get in the way. Any great
tire design that will give traction in that goop? Those super wide 29
tires need not apply as they won't fit a normal frame made for 26" MTB tires.

Cheers

Err... the "brown greasy" stuff isn't snow :-)

Snow is white, or if a lot of male dogs and children are around
sometimes yellow. But never brown.

Not snow. Slush. Created just as described. Even more fun when the
temperature drops and it freezes over.

I know, I was just being a wise-ass :-)

But I'm puzzled. You say spread salt but not plowed? I've never seen
that. I have seen the snow plow truck also tow a salt spreader but
never just the salt. I'd thing it would be counter productive - say 1
foot of snow; pioneer through with a truck spreading salt and than go
back and plow it sometime later?



You don't understand the civil service or politics in modern
USA.

No, I probably don't.

When I lived in the little town I grew up in we still had "Town
Meetings" and if your road didn't get plowed last year in the big snow
you got up and demanded to know why, and the Town Highway Boss had to
get up and justify his malfeasance.

I suspect that is a short coming of the modern American bureaucracy.
Nobody has to get up and take responsibility for anything, it is all
done by "Them" and you can't pin down who "Them" are.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Friday, January 17, 2014 6:45:51 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:


When I lived in the little town I grew up in we still had "Town
Meetings" and if your road didn't get plowed last year in the big snow
you got up and demanded to know why, and the Town Highway Boss had to
get up and justify his malfeasance.

I suspect that is a short coming of the modern American bureaucracy.
Nobody has to get up and take responsibility for anything, it is all
done by "Them" and you can't pin down who "Them" are.

The suburban village I live in has a population of 3000, with bi-weekly council meetings, even though it's surrounded by other densely populated jurisdictions. People are not shy about contacting our council members or standing up in meetings to voice their opinions or complaints. I like the fact that the police chief waves at me when I pass on my bike, that the council president considers me a good guy and good friend, that I can take advantage of opportunities to volunteer for the community. It's nice to participate and make a positive difference.

There are downsides to the jurisdiction's small size, of course. For example, when one civic-minded group propose a study to add pedestrian refuge islands to the center of our wide five lane highway (the only ugly entrance to town), some hotheads decided to rise up against it. They went door to door passing out torches and pitchforks, stormed village hall, and shouted that anything that might possibly slow traffic even a little would cause death and economic disaster. (Seriously!) I felt that if the entire metro area were under one government, that issue would have been approached more scientifically by the metro planning organization - which was, really, all the proponents were asking.

We've had nationally known planning experts come to the area and tell us that our metro area is far too balkanized, has many higher costs due to duplicated services, is missing out on opportunities for improvements, etc. But each contiguous burg is pretty jealous of its independence, for good or for ill.

- Frank Krygowski

John B. wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:13:35 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:50:25 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:47:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

There're tires for nearly every use. Is there one that's really good a
giving traction in the deep brown greasy slush that occurs when deep
snow is simply salted before it's plowed? Even studded tires don't grip
in that crap. Maybee a tire with long spikes to penetrate the crap might
do it but brake bridges and chanstay bridges get in the way. Any great
tire design that will give traction in that goop? Those super wide 29
tires need not apply as they won't fit a normal frame made for 26" MTB tires.

Cheers

Err... the "brown greasy" stuff isn't snow :-)

Snow is white, or if a lot of male dogs and children are around
sometimes yellow. But never brown.

Not snow. Slush. Created just as described. Even more fun when the
temperature drops and it freezes over.

I know, I was just being a wise-ass :-)

But I'm puzzled. You say spread salt but not plowed? I've never seen
that. I have seen the snow plow truck also tow a salt spreader but
never just the salt. I'd thing it would be counter productive - say 1
foot of snow; pioneer through with a truck spreading salt and than go
back and plow it sometime later?


Probably two different unions and the salt spreaders get out first. Lol.

Anyway if you've ever been around a place with a lot of snow you know it's
only white until the traffic comes. Goes from beautiful to grungy in one
good rush hour.

Well, I was born and grew up in a little country town in up-state New
Hampshire and lived there until I went to collage, and a decade, or so
later, I spent a couple of years in Bangor, Maine, so I've seen snow
:-)

As I remember, it was white stuff, and our snow stayed white even
after traffic. But our little town had a pretty efficient snow plowing
program and generally the downtown area would be bare, or pretty bare,
of snow by the time that people started to come to work in the
morning. I don't remember a "rush hour", I don't think we had those
:-)

I'm from New Orleans so no snow there. I've lived in Boston, Albany and
now Montreal so my experience with snow has been more urban than yours.
Traffic also apparently. :-)
--
duane

On Sat, 18 Jan 2014 00:14:44 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 12:13:35 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Fri, 17 Jan 2014 00:50:25 +0000 (UTC), Duane
wrote:

John B. wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2014 10:47:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

There're tires for nearly every use. Is there one that's really good a
giving traction in the deep brown greasy slush that occurs when deep
snow is simply salted before it's plowed? Even studded tires don't grip
in that crap. Maybee a tire with long spikes to penetrate the crap might
do it but brake bridges and chanstay bridges get in the way. Any great
tire design that will give traction in that goop? Those super wide 29
tires need not apply as they won't fit a normal frame made for 26" MTB tires.

Cheers

Err... the "brown greasy" stuff isn't snow :-)

Snow is white, or if a lot of male dogs and children are around
sometimes yellow. But never brown.

Not snow. Slush. Created just as described. Even more fun when the
temperature drops and it freezes over.

I know, I was just being a wise-ass :-)

But I'm puzzled. You say spread salt but not plowed? I've never seen
that. I have seen the snow plow truck also tow a salt spreader but
never just the salt. I'd thing it would be counter productive - say 1
foot of snow; pioneer through with a truck spreading salt and than go
back and plow it sometime later?


Probably two different unions and the salt spreaders get out first. Lol.

Anyway if you've ever been around a place with a lot of snow you know it's
only white until the traffic comes. Goes from beautiful to grungy in one
good rush hour.

Well, I was born and grew up in a little country town in up-state New
Hampshire and lived there until I went to collage, and a decade, or so
later, I spent a couple of years in Bangor, Maine, so I've seen snow
:-)

As I remember, it was white stuff, and our snow stayed white even
after traffic. But our little town had a pretty efficient snow plowing
program and generally the downtown area would be bare, or pretty bare,
of snow by the time that people started to come to work in the
morning. I don't remember a "rush hour", I don't think we had those
:-)

I'm from New Orleans so no snow there. I've lived in Boston, Albany and
now Montreal so my experience with snow has been more urban than yours.
Traffic also apparently. :-)

Well "traffic". I've driven in Los Angeles, Tokyo, Japan, Bangkok,
Thailand and Jakarta, Indonesia, the last in the list used to have
traffic jams nearly 5 Km long when it rained :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.