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Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today



 
 
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  #21  
Old February 20th 16, 07:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 2:41:09 PM UTC, Frank Krygowski wrote:

The problem with pro football helmets is, essentially, risk
compensation.


Here we go again.

Sigh.

Andre Jute
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  #22  
Old February 20th 16, 11:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tim McNamara
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Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:10:03 -0500, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Tim McNamara:
We should probably all wear helmets all the time- after all, they do
in the NFL!


I would contend that, if the NFL banned helmets and body armor, brain
injuries would drop dramatically.


What's the prevalence of brain injuries in rugby compared to the NFL?
  #23  
Old February 21st 16, 01:30 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
(PeteCresswell)
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Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

Per Tim McNamara:
I would contend that, if the NFL banned helmets and body armor, brain
injuries would drop dramatically.


What's the prevalence of brain injuries in rugby compared to the NFL?


That would be *the* question....

And it seems quite complicated... reporting methods, classification of
injuries.....

But both of the links below seem to give the lie to my little theory
about lack of pads/helmets greatly reducing brain injury.... and it
sounds like rugby players get more spinal cord injuries...

e.g.
http://www.brain-injury-law-center.c...y-vs-football/
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/sho...more-dangerous
--
Pete Cresswell
  #24  
Old February 21st 16, 02:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On 2/20/2016 7:30 PM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per Tim McNamara:
I would contend that, if the NFL banned helmets and body armor, brain
injuries would drop dramatically.


What's the prevalence of brain injuries in rugby compared to the NFL?


That would be *the* question....

And it seems quite complicated... reporting methods, classification of
injuries.....

But both of the links below seem to give the lie to my little theory
about lack of pads/helmets greatly reducing brain injury.... and it
sounds like rugby players get more spinal cord injuries...

e.g.
http://www.brain-injury-law-center.c...y-vs-football/
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/sho...more-dangerous


That didn't seem very clear. The second article has no hint of data, or
even a hint of answer to its headline question. The first one is
muddied by conflating "head injury" vs. "brain injury" - a problem with
most helmet promotion literature - and by comparing "catastrophic
incidents" between American football and rugby (omitting England, for
some reason). It's hard to tell how close the comparison was in the U of
Aukland report.

I'm not familiar enough with rugby to say what other confounding factors
might influence the relative safety or danger of the two sports. One
article referenced earlier in this thread
http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Ma...ds-the-Future/
pointed out that American football used to have scrums similar to rugby,
but that the rules were changed to reduce them. I thought that rugby
scrums were the most dangerous parts of that game, with spinal injuries
(not brain injuries) dominating.

But again, I don't know much about rugby, beyond its favorite bumper
sticker: "Rugby Players Give Blood."


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #25  
Old February 21st 16, 02:24 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On 2/19/2016 2:34 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
I was out riding and took a shortcut along a paved MUP. I saw a bicyclist a ways ahead of me take a really nasty tumble when he hit some thin black ice. I saw his head hit the pavement at least three times as he tumbled. I could hear his helmet hitting the pavement as well as see the impacts. It looked as if a couple of times his head bounced off the pavement. WOW! I guess his helmet helped because he was able to get up on his own. He didn't seem confused but I rode with him for about 20 minutes to make sure he was okay.


Coincidentally, I saw a fall today. It was a woman in our bike club.

We had unseasonably warm weather, but still some slippery spots. The
woman was directly in front of me when she slid on a patch of ice, went
down and slid forward, then hit her head on a pretty large rock. She
said something like "Damn! That hurt! I wonder if I'm going to have a
bump on my head!"

No, she was not wearing a bike helmet. If she were, I'm sure it would
have been dented or perhaps cracked, and therefore I'm sure it would
have "saved her life," or at least "prevented a concussion."

But in actual fact, she's perfectly fine. Not even a bruise, not even a
headache.

BTW, none of the other four bike club members present said a word about
her lack of helmet, except for one quiet helmet joke. Readers are free
to guess why.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #26  
Old February 21st 16, 03:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On Saturday, February 20, 2016 at 8:15:33 AM UTC-8, (PeteCresswell) wrote:
Per sms:
I would contend that, if the NFL banned helmets and body armor, brain
injuries would drop dramatically.


Probably you are wrong. There would likely be no change in concussion rates.


I based that contention on a discussion I heard by several older
world-class former welterweight contenders.

Their consensus was that brain injuries in boxing were almost unknown
back in the bare-knuckle days. i.e. old boxers did not turn up
punch-drunk.

The reason: fighters could not afford to trade punches and therefore
their brains did not get rattled around. Boxing was essentially an
endurance contest: circling, feinting, trying to get in that first
punch. Once the first punch was landed, the fight was soon to be over
because a person can't take that much in the way of bare-knuckle
punches.

I extrapolated that to football because no padding or helmets would make
it impractical for players to use their bodies as weapons.

OTOH, it wouldn't be football anymore... more like a USA version of
rugby.
--
Pete Cresswell


Well, I know a Phd biomechanic who taught at MIT and Harvard (not kidding) who says that boxing helmets increase rotational injuries because they increase the head target area, and they are "sticky" to leather gloves. Gloves catch the helmet and whip the head around. This same guy had issues with football helmets being used as weapons and being under-protective. He was strongly in favor of bicycle helmets. I doubt he was for MHLs (if we start going that direction).

-- Jay Beattie.

  #27  
Old February 21st 16, 04:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
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Posts: 2,202
Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 08:10:03 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per Tim McNamara:
We should probably all wear helmets all the time- after all,
they do in the NFL!


I would contend that, if the NFL banned helmets and body armor, brain
injuries would drop dramatically.


While they aren't an exact comparison one might look at rugby or
Australian rules football.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #28  
Old February 21st 16, 05:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
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Posts: 2,202
Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 11:15:28 -0500, "(PeteCresswell)"
wrote:

Per sms:
I would contend that, if the NFL banned helmets and body armor, brain
injuries would drop dramatically.


Probably you are wrong. There would likely be no change in concussion rates.


I based that contention on a discussion I heard by several older
world-class former welterweight contenders.

Their consensus was that brain injuries in boxing were almost unknown
back in the bare-knuckle days. i.e. old boxers did not turn up
punch-drunk.

The reason: fighters could not afford to trade punches and therefore
their brains did not get rattled around. Boxing was essentially an
endurance contest: circling, feinting, trying to get in that first
punch. Once the first punch was landed, the fight was soon to be over
because a person can't take that much in the way of bare-knuckle
punches.


I think that in bare knuckle days boxers were not as likely to hit
someone on the head as in modern day boxing as hitting someone on the
head with the bare hand poses a very real danger of breaking a hand
and single handed boxers don't win very often.

I extrapolated that to football because no padding or helmets would make
it impractical for players to use their bodies as weapons.

OTOH, it wouldn't be football anymore... more like a USA version of
rugby.

--
cheers,

John B.

  #29  
Old February 21st 16, 05:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_6_]
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Posts: 2,202
Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On Sat, 20 Feb 2016 09:06:15 -0800, sms
wrote:

On 2/20/2016 8:15 AM, (PeteCresswell) wrote:

I extrapolated that to football because no padding or helmets would make
it impractical for players to use their bodies as weapons.

OTOH, it wouldn't be football anymore... more like a USA version of
rugby.


Except prior to all the protective equipment used in football their were
more injuries not less. The concussion issue was not really solved by
the type of helmets being used, as that article explains. The fact that
the helmet is designed to endure multiple impacts is one of the problems.

Obviously the teams would not like the idea of having to replace the
helmets every time one of them has an impact, it would delay the game
tremendously.

The reason that bicycle helmets are so effective at preventing brain
injuries is because they are "single impact." The same goes for a lot of
other safety equipment that is designed for crashes. Numerous case
studies have shown bicycle helmets to be extremely effective and
preventing brain injuries.

A study published in the British Medical Journal stated that at
realistic impact speeds of 12-14 MPH, bicycle helmets changed the
probability of severe brain injury from extremely likely (99.9% risk at
to unlikely (9.3% and 30.6% risk at 12 and 14 MPH respectively).

You are saying that bicycle riders without helmets that crash their
bikes at 12 - 14 MPH (19 - 22 KPH) have a 99.9% probability of severe
brain injury?
--
cheers,

John B.

  #30  
Old February 21st 16, 06:14 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Saw a bicyclist take a nasty spill today

On 2/20/2016 9:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:


Well, I know a Phd biomechanic who taught at MIT and Harvard (not kidding) who says that boxing helmets increase rotational injuries because they increase the head target area, and they are "sticky" to leather gloves. Gloves catch the helmet and whip the head around. This same guy had issues with football helmets being used as weapons and being under-protective. He was strongly in favor of bicycle helmets.


I note the past tense in that sentence. There was a time (mostly,
1990s) when almost everyone seemed to be in favor of bike helmets. Many
opinions have since changed.

--
- Frank Krygowski
 




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