The most contentious element of bicycle design is (wait forit...trumpets, maestro) -- the stand!

On 05/08/14 03:23, Andre Jute wrote:

Check this out and then return he http://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew..._haul_truckers

I must say I consider a bicycle designed for adults without a stand to be a sign of incompetence. I simply don't believe the designers who retrospectively foam at the mouth and try to make out that not supplying mounting points for a stand is matter of principle; they're just trying to bluster away their oversight: "Well for f*ck's sake." -- official Surly response.

A bike not having a stand is a dealbreaker for me. The absence arises from the same place as so much unwanted bicycle "heritage" creeping into design with deleterious effects, racing in the wretched Peugeot 10-speed era, whose influence seems ineradicable. I don't ride a Surly, though I admire their philosophy enough once to have considered building up a Karate Monkey, until I disovered precisely how crude it is. However, whoever makes my bike, I have zero intention of laying an expensive bike on the ground, and even less intention at my age of bending over inelegantly to pick up a loaded bike. Both are silly things to expect a customer to do. Carrying a seperate stick in the luggage to prop up the bike -- see http://www.click-stand.com -- , and working with velcro ties (which will last how long before they lose their nap?), is a bodge Heath Robinson himself would reject out of hand.

This entire business of turning stands into the primary evil of touring bikes is one of the great duh-moments of bicycle design, and so widespread as to assume the dimensions of a mass-hysteria, which is why "for f*ck's sake" Surly and others overreact every time the subject is raised. Ask yourself how much it would cost, if you're having your own tubes drawn anyway, as many top bikemakers brag of doing, to have extra-long butts for mounting two-leg standers drawn into the front end of chain stays? The answer is peanuts. This is about either not thinking of it, or reflexively, because of the hanging history of racing bike design, rejecting the few extra grammes, thus consigning cyclists to years of inconvenience for the sake of a few grammes.

It's plain guilt causing bicycle designers to get hot under the collar any time the subject of bicycle stands is raised.


I want to build myself a trailer for my bike with low gears (MTB), so
that I can carry a wheelbarrow load of shopping with out stretching my
back pack zipper.

I will add a stand to the trailer similar to this:

http://www.amazon.com/M-Wave-Steel-D.../dp/B001NGD5D4

It seems quite sensible to me for bikes that are meant to be parked to
have a stand.

Of course, I wouldn't add one to a racing machine, and neither would you
I suspect.

--
JS

On 06/08/14 03:42, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 6:38:09 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

Sorry about the improper spelling Andre.

No worries, as we used to say down under before the government made us go to college and speak proper.


No wucken flurries?

;-)

--
JS

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 12:18:52 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
On 06/08/14 03:42, Andre Jute wrote:

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 6:38:09 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



Sorry about the improper spelling Andre.



No worries, as we used to say down under before the government made us go to college and speak proper.





No wucken flurries?

That too.

AJ

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 12:17:39 AM UTC+1, James wrote:

It seems quite sensible to me for bikes that are meant to be parked to

have a stand.

It's amazing how many bike designers not only disagree with you, but disagree with you *violently*.

Of course, I wouldn't add one to a racing machine, and neither would you

I suspect.

You're right. I'd respect the purpose of the racing bike of being light, fast and fragile. All I ask in return is that bike designers respect the purpose of the touring or utility bike I buy from them, which is to be useful and convenient.

Andre Jute

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 10:58:05 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Ideas always start out plain and simple, and soon accelerate towards

complexity. If it seems easy, simple, obvious, and devoid of

problems, you've probably missed a fatal flaw.

Nah, all it means is that you haven't yet appointed an engineer to tell you it's a bad idea for a boat to be watertight.

Andre Jute

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 10:58:05 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:



At some point in the

distant past, I added a modified PVC "T" connector for it to act as a

kickstand.

http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/PVC-kickstand.html

The other end really should be pointed or crenulated to get a better

grip on the ground, but a straight cut works on dirt. I could also

make it telescoping and adjustable, but haven't found a need.

Unfortunately, like the traditional kickstand, mine tends to topple

with a top heavy load. My solution is simply to not use it when

schlepping a top heavy load.

I like that idea, because it is cheap and dual-purpose, in that besides propping up the bike it can be used to fend off importunate drivers by jabbing the sharp end at their faces.

Andre Jute
Any cyclist who doesn't have violent dreams lacks imagination

On Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:45:42 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 10:58:05 PM UTC+1, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
At some point in the
distant past, I added a modified PVC "T" connector for it to act as a
kickstand.
http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/PVC-kickstand.html
The other end really should be pointed or crenulated to get a better
grip on the ground, but a straight cut works on dirt. I could also
make it telescoping and adjustable, but haven't found a need.
Unfortunately, like the traditional kickstand, mine tends to topple
with a top heavy load. My solution is simply to not use it when
schlepping a top heavy load.

I like that idea,

Something is wrong. The quality of my ideas is directly proportional
to the level of resistance, criticism, and dire predictions of failure
that they attract. Some of my best ideas were initially deemed
useless by the experts. To keep my ego fully inflated, please amend
your statement to at least indicate that you have reservations about
the idea.

There is plenty of room for improvement in the design. Instead of a
butchered PVC "T", todays model would probably use a spring loaded
clamp capable of grabbing any part of the bicycle frame (without
scratching it). One of these will do quite well:
http://images.lowes.com/product/converted/091162/091162009390.jpg
For example, this adaptation works rather well clamped to the down
tube. With a somewhat longer shaft, it should work with the top tube.
http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/kickstand-v2.html

because it is cheap and dual-purpose, in that besides propping up
the bike it can be used to fend off importunate drivers by jabbing
the sharp end at their faces.

Well, yes. Most everything I design is intended to be multipurpose.
The kickstand was originally designed as a dog training device. I've
used it to tap the car window of zombie drivers as an attention
getting device, but never considered using it as a weapon. If you
must do that, I suggest you build it like a mediaeval lance suitable
for bicycle jousting.

Ideas always start out plain and simple, and soon accelerate towards
complexity. If it seems easy, simple, obvious, and devoid of
problems, you've probably missed a fatal flaw.

Nah, all it means is that you haven't yet appointed an engineer to
tell you it's a bad idea for a boat to be watertight.

Not in my case. I usually get appointed to tell someone that it's a
good idea for boats to leak water. I suspect that you still have most
of your integrity intact. I don't, because I've been asked to justify
such leaking boats as an expert witness in a court of law. It's not
easy or fun to lie, distort, misinterpret, and pervert engineering
principles, but I must admit that it can be profitable.

Andre Jute
Any cyclist who doesn't have violent dreams lacks imagination

Well, I certainly qualify. I have recurring dreams of riding my
mountain bike off the end of a cliff, doing an ET flying bicycle
simulation for what seems like hours, and then crashing really hard
(without a helmet), when I wake up. I don't currently consider it a
premonition of impending doom because I've had reruns of this dream
for about 40 years. I really enjoy these dreams, except for the
landing, which usually coincides with the neighbor starting his diesel
truck. Occasionally, the credits appear, the lion roars, and then I
wake up:
http://www.dreamdictionary.org/common/flying-dreams/

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tuesday, August 5, 2014 5:58:05 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Aug 2014 10:23:04 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute

wrote:



It's plain guilt causing bicycle designers to get hot under

the collar any time the subject of bicycle stands is raised.



If they become overheated when raising anything, they probably need

more exercise.



I had kickstands on most of my bicycles over the years. About 20

years ago, I decided that in their then current manifestation, that

kickstands were a bad idea. With a top heavy load, such as a bag of

groceries on the rear rack, they were easily toppled. I also had the

juvenile and suicidal habit of lowering the kickstand with my foot

while coming to a stop. That worked most of the time, but sending me

to a first aid station the remaining times. As I vaguely recall, I've

had more incidents with my left pant cuff getting caught in the

kickstand, then my right cuff getting caught in the chainwheel.



While riding locally in the hills, I usually carry a 1 meter length of

3/5" PVC pipe. It wasn't originally intended as a kickstand, but

rather as a dog deterrent. It has also proven useful for tapping on

automobile windows. I've thought of using it as a rocket launching

tube, but never had the time to build one. At some point in the

distant past, I added a modified PVC "T" connector for it to act as a

kickstand.

http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/PVC-kickstand.html

The other end really should be pointed or crenulated to get a better

grip on the ground, but a straight cut works on dirt. I could also

make it telescoping and adjustable, but haven't found a need.

Unfortunately, like the traditional kickstand, mine tends to topple

with a top heavy load. My solution is simply to not use it when

schlepping a top heavy load.



Like a kickstand, I've lusted after a carryable workstand. Having the

rear wheel off the ground and the bike level would allow me to

maintenance on the rear wheel on the road. Such rear dropout mounted

kickstands are somewhat popular in Japan:

https://www.google.com/search?q=japan+bicycle+kick+stand&tbm=isch

(First two rows of photos).



Andre Jute

Plain thinking, plain speaking -- are the Amish taking converts?



Ideas always start out plain and simple, and soon accelerate towards

complexity. If it seems easy, simple, obvious, and devoid of

problems, you've probably missed a fatal flaw.







--

Jeff Liebermann

150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com

Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Hmm. You might be onto something there Jeff.

Change the design so that it is telescoptic, can fold so two legs are the same length and can clamp to a tube and you'd have a really useful device that could also have optional screw on heads to be used as a lance/spear or fish spear in the woods (as a survival device of course), a ridge pole for a tarp and a number of other uses.


When not in use it can be mounted on the frame diagoally from head tube to seat tube at the bottom bravket.

Cheers

On Tue, 5 Aug 2014 16:39:30 -0700 (PDT), Andre Jute
wrote:

On Wednesday, August 6, 2014 12:17:39 AM UTC+1, James wrote:
It seems quite sensible to me for bikes that are meant to be parked to
have a stand.

It's amazing how many bike designers not only disagree with you,
but disagree with you *violently*.

Of course, I wouldn't add one to a racing machine, and neither would you
I suspect.

You're right. I'd respect the purpose of the racing bike of being
light, fast and fragile. All I ask in return is that bike designers
respect the purpose of the touring or utility bike I buy from them,
which is to be useful and convenient.
Andre Jute

That will never happen. Racing bicycle designers will tend to design
machines that look and work like racing bicycles. BMX designers will
continue to build flying machines. Utility bike designers will
continue to design clunky looking machines. Etc. These are very
different areas of expertise, where each area uses their own favored
technologies and methodologies, with little interest into crossing
over into adjacent disciplines.

Personal anecdote: In the early 1970's, Columbia Bronze was in the
business of casting marine deck hardware (cleats, blocks, anchors,
bells, rails, etc). Management decided that they should get into the
marine radio business. This was prior to when everything came from
Japan (not China), so they hired some engineers and rolled their own
radio design. I happen to be at the San Mateo boat show during the
public unveiling of the new radio. Instead of a sleek, white, modern
looking radio, in the fashion of the times, it looked and weighed like
a boat anchor. They were familiar with casting technology, and didn't
feel obligated to learn anything new, like sheet metal and injection
molded plastic. The radio and product line sank rather quickly.

If this had only happened once in my career, I would suspect a
management problem. However, I've seen it about 5 times, twice with
my products. For example, I was designing what was generally
considered to be a land mobile radio, but for a telecom company. I
was doing most of the electronics while others were doing the
mechanical design. No matter how hard I pushed to have it look like a
land mobile radio, the mechanical engineer just couldn't resist
turning it into something that looked like telecom hardware, which was
full of card cages, rack slides, racks, alarm panels, backplane
connectors, and multiple nested layers of sheet metal. I couldn't get
anyone's attention until the customer mentioned that it was too heavy
to install on a telephone pole. Oops.

If you want a touring, comfort, or utility bike, hire an engineer that
knows, rides, understands, and hopefully has some experience with
these types of bicycles. Personally, I think it might be easier to
hire an engineer that had previously designed (for example) food
processing machinery, than to retrain a racing bike designer.

I again use myself as my best example. My background was in cheap
consumer electronics and seat of the pants production engineering.
Underscore the word cheap. No matter how hard I tries, I always
thought cheap first. At one point, I worked on a product where price
was not quite so important and where (perceived) quality and
performance were the prime objectives. I ended up being sidelined to
a non-design function because I couldn't stop thinking cheap, no
matter how hard I tried. I expect much the same from a racing bicycle
engineer.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Tue, 5 Aug 2014 19:23:37 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Hmm. You might be onto something there Jeff.

I'm not on anything stronger than coffee right now. I don't do
controlled substances, which tend to fog my brain and ruin my
concentration.

Change the design so that it is telescoptic, can fold so two
legs are the same length and can clamp to a tube and you'd
have a really useful device...

Like this?
http://www.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/bicycles/slides/kickstand-v3.html
It took me longer to photograph it than to make it. The legs are made
from 1/2" PEX (Sharkbite) tubing that I happen to have laying around.
The clamp goes around the down tube, somewhere near the bottom
bracket. No need for telescoping tubes as the clamp can be moved up
and down. Some foam rubber around the teeth in the clamp might be
useful.

I could easily heat the tubing and put a bend in both tubes so tubes
form a better angle with the ground, but then I would need to glue the
tubes to the clamp handles. Not a problem, but possibly not worth the
effort. I'll need to try it both ways.

However, bending the tubing does have one big advantage. If I can
figure out how to make the tubes rotate in the clamp handles, then I
can swing them together, to make it much smaller and easier to store.

that could also have optional screw on heads to be used as a
lance/spear or fish spear in the woods (as a survival device of course),
a ridge pole for a tarp and a number of other uses.

Ummmm... that's what is commonly called "creeping featuritis". It's a
disease found in some designers who are unable to concentrate[1] the
prime objective, which in this case is to produce a kickstand. Since
the basic design and effectiveness of the kickstand has not yet been
established, I think it's too soon to turn it into a weapon.

When not in use it can be mounted on the frame diagoally from head
tube to seat tube at the bottom bravket.

Mounted? Maybe, but that's no the way I think and ride. My problem
is that I am now doing service calls on my bicycle. I carry a minimal
tool kit and parts for my work on the back rack. When I park my
bicycle on a public bike rack, I usually remove anything that might be
conceivably stolen. I take the lights, panniers, pump, tool bag, and
even the water bottle with me into the customers office. If someone
wants to field strip my bicycle, they'll need to bring some security
screwdrivers and tools. No way am I going to leave a kickstand
attached to an unattended bicycle. It's going inside with the rest of
the junk. More likely, it will strapped to the top tube with the
bicycle pump.


[1] The only problem with concentration is that one can really only
concentrate on one thing at a time. While writing this, I let the
water for the tortellini boil away merrily on the kitchen stove. No
damage, but rather irritating. Concentration and multitasking are
mutually exclusive.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558