Steeling another Ride

On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 2:46:19 PM UTC-7, sms wrote:
On 8/26/2016 11:58 AM, wrote:
Lost track of time yesterday morning and hopped on the bike at 8:15 instead of 7:45. Rode fast but still missed the group. Now I normally know where they're going since they are as predictable as sunrise. But even going fast I didn't catch them at the top of the hill where they would have normally waited at least twice for slower set.

snip

This weekend was odd with three different people, two of whom know
little about bicycles, relating stories about frame materials. A niece
and a sister-in-law were talking about acquaintances with CF bicycles
and how they replaced them every three years or so because of concerns,
real or imagined (probably planted by their LBS) that the CF bicycle was
"worn out" and subject to catastrophic failure after that amount of
time. Then I was giving a ride to my daughter's previous roommate, up to
UC Santa Cruz, and she said that her bike had a flat and that the gears
were "shifting slow" and how she might buy a new bicycle with the
proceeds from the refund of their apartment deposit, but that her
bicycle was very sought after since it was one of the last steel bicycle
produced by Marin. I have one of those too!

And you really can't blame Jerry Brown for some failed businesses in
Sunol, where they once elected a dog as mayor.

The dog was a MUCH better mayor of Sunol than Jerry Brown was of Oakland.

On Sunday I was pushed for time so I went out on a short ride - 30 miles and 2000 feet of climbing. Some of the climbing hit 12%.

I was passed by about a dozen kids at one time or another. The first to come by leaving everyone else in the dust was a young woman on one of the newer steel Bianchis.

Then there was a broken up group of about 10 or so young men all beating themselves to catch up. They were ALL riding steel bikes. I rode with one for awhile to look at his LeMonde and most of the rest were riding American brazed together frames. Surly and such. Only one of them had a carbon fiber fork.

While I was riding down a very fast downhill I pulled up to a stop light and a carbon fiber bike caught up and turned off.

Talking to several of the local shops none of them have sold a road bike in six months.

Maybe people are starting to catch on.

While going down a steep hill a CAR pulled over and I passed him at about 40 and made a right angle turn at speed a little further on and that guy didn't catch me until 2 miles further on.

For those that think that there must have been something wrong with the C40 - it was THE race bike in the 90's. And I have a Time VX, a Look 247 Tour Replica and two kinds of Colnago Dreams - one with the fork and complete rear triangle from a C50. They ALL (especially the Time) have VERY poor feel and high speed handling - you can get them to do what you want but only by forcing them to do it.

The Basso you only have to think what you want and it does it. I had an Eddy Merckx Strata OS made of Columbus BRAIN tubing that was the same way.

On 2016-08-26 11:58, wrote:
Lost track of time yesterday morning and hopped on the bike at 8:15
instead of 7:45. Rode fast but still missed the group. Now I normally
know where they're going since they are as predictable as sunrise.
But even going fast I didn't catch them at the top of the hill where
they would have normally waited at least twice for slower set.

On the way down a drop I got hit by a strong side wind. I braced for
the effect and ,,,,,, nothing. I don't know if this Basso Loto has
more directional stability or if I'm simply more relaxed on the bike
because it rides so much better than a stiff riding C40. On the C40 a
gust like that would have pushed me clear across the road.

I rode through Pleasanton and they weren't there. I continued on
since I knew that there was a cafe in Sunol that they could stop at.


With my guys you only need to check a few brewpubs :-)


There was an awful lot of traffic on the side road and I decided that
that *)( ) Goggle Maps was directing people onto the side road
because of traffic jams ahead. There sure weren't any on the adjacent
freeway but more and more traffic was buzzing by me at increasingly
unsafe speeds. Coming around a turn and starting uphill a mile from
the stop sign at Niles Canyon the traffic was stopped. All of those
cars that had been driving by WAY too close were stopped and although
many of them had pulled into the side trying to block me I could get
around them. Every car that had passed me in the last 4 miles was
stopped and I passed them all.

Getting up to the stop sign it's a three way stop with traffic in all
directions so I turned right and accelerated up to 22 across the
narrow bridge and pulled into Sunol. Riding into town all of the
businesses were boarded over. This is Governor Moonbeam Brown's
thriving economy. By this time I had been riding pretty much flat out
to catch the group and they weren't here so they must have taken
another route. Very unlike them.

But I was worn down so I had to ride slow back the 10 miles to the
climb back over the hill and into Castro Valley.

Oddly enough again the steel bike was showing it's merits. Although
my legs were tired from pushing, my back, my shoulders, my neck and
my tush were not hurting as they ALWAYS would be on the C40.


The tush has more to do with the seat than the frame though. On my steel
road bike it hurts after 40-50 miles while on the more plush WTB seat on
the MTB it doesn't. On the original Oval M200 seat the MTB had it did hurt.


As I was riding around the turns I could accelerate on the Basso
which I could not do on the C40 because it was so rigid that it kept
the wheels off the ground a lot.

I hit the climb and I seemed to be climbing a lot faster than I did
on the lighter carbon bikes. Maybe this was just my screwed up
memory. ...


Or magnetic force from all the ore in the ground :-)


... But there was a heck of a headwind and I was still going up
at 7 to 11 mph on a 5% climb when that would normally be closer to 6
according to my memory. As I got to the top my butt was hurting some.
But as I cleared the top and started down this disappeared almost
instantly which it never did before.

The Basso is 63 cm C-T and the C40 Large is a 59 C-T of toptube. But
the measurements between handbars, saddle center and pedals is the
same. So the only thing I can attribute this much softer ride to is
the steel tubes.

On the downhill I hit 40 mph on a fairly mild descent. On the C40 by
this time I'd be so sore that I'd be more or less coasting.


No front end wobble at a certain speed? That's what my steel frame does
somewhere around 32mph.


I took a detour to put in a couple of extra miles but it turned out
that they were the same distance so I ended up getting home at 12:30.
55 miles, 2,000 ft of climbing with a max of 10% and an average speed
of 13.6 which is about a mph faster than normal for a ride of this
sort. ...


That was a pretty good clip there. On my usual 45-50mi rides I can't
push much past 12mph average because of the hills. Probably similar to
the ones around Pleasanton. I don't have any tools to measure the total
feet though, about 1300ft elevation difference with several ups and
downs inbetween. The bike weighs around 26lbs (sans water and growler).


... Near home I had been forced to stop because these new "light"
wheel quick releases do not hold well and the rear wheel was pulling
over on hard accelerations to make lights and it was like slamming on
the brakes.

If you are trying to decide on a new carbon fiber bike you might want
to look at the custom steel offerings from Tommasini for about half
the price. And they can talk about carbon fiber breaking all they
want and you needn't pay the slightest attention.


Or do what I did, resurrect your old road bike from when you were the
super-athlete. Or buy one, occasionally people sell them cheaply because
they don't know the value of a good steel frame. Mine has a Gazelle
frame. Full steampunk, downtube friction shifters and all that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 1:29:27 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 11:58:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Lost track of time yesterday morning and hopped on the bike at 8:15 instead of 7:45. Rode fast but still missed the group. Now I normally know where they're going since they are as predictable as sunrise. But even going fast I didn't catch them at the top of the hill where they would have normally waited at least twice for slower set.

On the way down a drop I got hit by a strong side wind. I braced for the effect and ,,,,,, nothing. I don't know if this Basso Loto has more directional stability or if I'm simply more relaxed on the bike because it rides so much better than a stiff riding C40. On the C40 a gust like that would have pushed me clear across the road.

I rode through Pleasanton and they weren't there. I continued on since I knew that there was a cafe in Sunol that they could stop at. There was an awful lot of traffic on the side road and I decided that that *)( ) Goggle Maps was directing people onto the side road because of traffic jams ahead.. There sure weren't any on the adjacent freeway but more and more traffic was buzzing by me at increasingly unsafe speeds. Coming around a turn and starting uphill a mile from the stop sign at Niles Canyon the traffic was stopped. All of those cars that had been driving by WAY too close were stopped and although many of them had pulled into the side trying to block me I could get around them. Every car that had passed me in the last 4 miles was stopped and I passed them all.

Getting up to the stop sign it's a three way stop with traffic in all directions so I turned right and accelerated up to 22 across the narrow bridge and pulled into Sunol. Riding into town all of the businesses were boarded over. This is Governor Moonbeam Brown's thriving economy. By this time I had been riding pretty much flat out to catch the group and they weren't here so they must have taken another route. Very unlike them.

But I was worn down so I had to ride slow back the 10 miles to the climb back over the hill and into Castro Valley.

Oddly enough again the steel bike was showing it's merits. Although my legs were tired from pushing, my back, my shoulders, my neck and my tush were not hurting as they ALWAYS would be on the C40.

As I was riding around the turns I could accelerate on the Basso which I could not do on the C40 because it was so rigid that it kept the wheels off the ground a lot.

I hit the climb and I seemed to be climbing a lot faster than I did on the lighter carbon bikes. Maybe this was just my screwed up memory. But there was a heck of a headwind and I was still going up at 7 to 11 mph on a 5% climb when that would normally be closer to 6 according to my memory. As I got to the top my butt was hurting some. But as I cleared the top and started down this disappeared almost instantly which it never did before.

The Basso is 63 cm C-T and the C40 Large is a 59 C-T of toptube. But the measurements between handbars, saddle center and pedals is the same. So the only thing I can attribute this much softer ride to is the steel tubes.

On the downhill I hit 40 mph on a fairly mild descent. On the C40 by this time I'd be so sore that I'd be more or less coasting.

I took a detour to put in a couple of extra miles but it turned out that they were the same distance so I ended up getting home at 12:30. 55 miles, 2,000 ft of climbing with a max of 10% and an average speed of 13.6 which is about a mph faster than normal for a ride of this sort. Near home I had been forced to stop because these new "light" wheel quick releases do not hold well and the rear wheel was pulling over on hard accelerations to make lights and it was like slamming on the brakes.

If you are trying to decide on a new carbon fiber bike you might want to look at the custom steel offerings from Tommasini for about half the price. And they can talk about carbon fiber breaking all they want and you needn't pay the slightest attention.

It sounds like your C40 sucked. I love my SuperSix -- the Roubaix, too, but it has a different personality. The Tommasini frames are in the $2300-2500 range. I got my SuperSix on sale for under $2500 complete (SRAM Red).

I think I would go with the Tommasini in the 63cm size (C/T) which, in the usual Italian fashion has a slightly short TT, and it is not clear from the page what the chainstay/WB lengths are. The weight, 3.527 in a 55cm frame omits the 2lb fork. http://tommasinibicycle.com/tommasini-tecno/ You can still build a pretty light bike I suppose. It seems like an option, but not really a cheap one. I'm sure there are cheaper steel options, but certainly not as flashy.

-- Jay Beattie.

Err - the "typical Italian fashion" is to have long top tubes. Though I don't know what you'd compare it to. The German bikes, like the PDQ Schwinns generally had top tube of 57 cm for a 62 or 63. Most Italian bikes are closer to 59 cm.

Italian 54's are often square which is a LONG top tube.

As for that "heavy" frame and fork - My C40 frame and fork with a Chris King headset weighs 4.54 lbs. My Basso with the components off of the C40 and with Campy Atlanta 1996 HEAVY wheels weigh a little less than a half lb heavier than the C40. Now there ARE lighter bikes. But if you're willing to risk you life on them at speed that causes cars to pull over to let you by be my guest.

On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 5:00:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

With my guys you only need to check a few brewpubs :-)

Where can I meet these guys!

The tush has more to do with the seat than the frame though. On my steel
road bike it hurts after 40-50 miles while on the more plush WTB seat on
the MTB it doesn't. On the original Oval M200 seat the MTB had it did hurt.

On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 5:09:43 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 1:29:27 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 11:58:36 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Lost track of time yesterday morning and hopped on the bike at 8:15 instead of 7:45. Rode fast but still missed the group. Now I normally know where they're going since they are as predictable as sunrise. But even going fast I didn't catch them at the top of the hill where they would have normally waited at least twice for slower set.

On the way down a drop I got hit by a strong side wind. I braced for the effect and ,,,,,, nothing. I don't know if this Basso Loto has more directional stability or if I'm simply more relaxed on the bike because it rides so much better than a stiff riding C40. On the C40 a gust like that would have pushed me clear across the road.

I rode through Pleasanton and they weren't there. I continued on since I knew that there was a cafe in Sunol that they could stop at. There was an awful lot of traffic on the side road and I decided that that *)( ) Goggle Maps was directing people onto the side road because of traffic jams ahead. There sure weren't any on the adjacent freeway but more and more traffic was buzzing by me at increasingly unsafe speeds. Coming around a turn and starting uphill a mile from the stop sign at Niles Canyon the traffic was stopped. All of those cars that had been driving by WAY too close were stopped and although many of them had pulled into the side trying to block me I could get around them. Every car that had passed me in the last 4 miles was stopped and I passed them all.

Getting up to the stop sign it's a three way stop with traffic in all directions so I turned right and accelerated up to 22 across the narrow bridge and pulled into Sunol. Riding into town all of the businesses were boarded over. This is Governor Moonbeam Brown's thriving economy. By this time I had been riding pretty much flat out to catch the group and they weren't here so they must have taken another route. Very unlike them.

But I was worn down so I had to ride slow back the 10 miles to the climb back over the hill and into Castro Valley.

Oddly enough again the steel bike was showing it's merits. Although my legs were tired from pushing, my back, my shoulders, my neck and my tush were not hurting as they ALWAYS would be on the C40.

As I was riding around the turns I could accelerate on the Basso which I could not do on the C40 because it was so rigid that it kept the wheels off the ground a lot.

I hit the climb and I seemed to be climbing a lot faster than I did on the lighter carbon bikes. Maybe this was just my screwed up memory. But there was a heck of a headwind and I was still going up at 7 to 11 mph on a 5% climb when that would normally be closer to 6 according to my memory. As I got to the top my butt was hurting some. But as I cleared the top and started down this disappeared almost instantly which it never did before.

The Basso is 63 cm C-T and the C40 Large is a 59 C-T of toptube. But the measurements between handbars, saddle center and pedals is the same. So the only thing I can attribute this much softer ride to is the steel tubes..

On the downhill I hit 40 mph on a fairly mild descent. On the C40 by this time I'd be so sore that I'd be more or less coasting.

I took a detour to put in a couple of extra miles but it turned out that they were the same distance so I ended up getting home at 12:30. 55 miles, 2,000 ft of climbing with a max of 10% and an average speed of 13.6 which is about a mph faster than normal for a ride of this sort. Near home I had been forced to stop because these new "light" wheel quick releases do not hold well and the rear wheel was pulling over on hard accelerations to make lights and it was like slamming on the brakes.

If you are trying to decide on a new carbon fiber bike you might want to look at the custom steel offerings from Tommasini for about half the price. And they can talk about carbon fiber breaking all they want and you needn't pay the slightest attention.

It sounds like your C40 sucked. I love my SuperSix -- the Roubaix, too, but it has a different personality. The Tommasini frames are in the $2300-2500 range. I got my SuperSix on sale for under $2500 complete (SRAM Red).

I think I would go with the Tommasini in the 63cm size (C/T) which, in the usual Italian fashion has a slightly short TT, and it is not clear from the page what the chainstay/WB lengths are. The weight, 3.527 in a 55cm frame omits the 2lb fork. http://tommasinibicycle.com/tommasini-tecno/ You can still build a pretty light bike I suppose. It seems like an option, but not really a cheap one. I'm sure there are cheaper steel options, but certainly not as flashy.

-- Jay Beattie.

Err - the "typical Italian fashion" is to have long top tubes. Though I don't know what you'd compare it to. The German bikes, like the PDQ Schwinns generally had top tube of 57 cm for a 62 or 63. Most Italian bikes are closer to 59 cm.

Italian 54's are often square which is a LONG top tube.

As for that "heavy" frame and fork - My C40 frame and fork with a Chris King headset weighs 4.54 lbs. My Basso with the components off of the C40 and with Campy Atlanta 1996 HEAVY wheels weigh a little less than a half lb heavier than the C40. Now there ARE lighter bikes. But if you're willing to risk you life on them at speed that causes cars to pull over to let you by be my guest.

Looking up some French bikes I'm astounded at some of the variations. It would appear that Mr. Beatie is quite right that compared to some of the other bikes that were on the market Italian bikes could be considered to have a short top tube. I just spotted a French 54 cm with a 57 cm top tube!!! This must be for an orangutan. Riders much have used a 60 cm stem.

Do any of you have absurd body proportions aside from my 6'4" height?

On 2016-08-29 17:33, wrote:
On Monday, August 29, 2016 at 5:00:58 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:

With my guys you only need to check a few brewpubs :-)

Where can I meet these guys!


El Dorado County. The visitors from Oregon were similar though. "Can you
bring your MTB in the truck?" ... "Sure. Are there any pubs along the
trail?" ... "Yes" ... "Alright!"

[...]


No front end wobble at a certain speed? That's what my steel frame
does somewhere around 32mph.

None of my Basso's or Eddy Merckx's have had wobbles at any speed
unless you tense up on the bars. Then the wobble has to do with your
muscle tension. Neither did the steel Colnagoes.

My old French bikes and the Raleigh did wobble at anything over 28 or
so.


Mine even does that hands-off. The Merckx frame of a cycling friend did
as well. However, only at one particular speed.


That was a pretty good clip there. On my usual 45-50mi rides I
can't push much past 12mph average because of the hills. Probably
similar to the ones around Pleasanton. I don't have any tools to
measure the total feet though, about 1300ft elevation difference
with several ups and downs inbetween. The bike weighs around 26lbs
(sans water and growler).

The Basso is about that weight with water and heavy seat pack.


It gets hot up here so I often have to carry a gallon of water if there
are hardly any drinking fountains along the route. That's one of the
reasons why I have panniers on my bikes. Also for the growler, of
course. There is even a towing rope in there which did get used once.


Or do what I did, resurrect your old road bike from when you were
the super-athlete. Or buy one, occasionally people sell them
cheaply because they don't know the value of a good steel frame.
Mine has a Gazelle frame. Full steampunk, downtube friction
shifters and all that.

When I got the concussion in 2009 I kept falling off after that.
Apparently no one could recognize effects of a seizure. I guess I
finally got angry that I couldn't ride without falling off and sold
off all of my bikes and threw away all of my bike clothing - an
entire double closet full. I had every team Jersey for 30 years in my
size. I could make even Jacques Anquitil jealous. Now I'm hard
pressed to make Jacques Pepin so. And he wears the same clothes on
every show.


I never figured what people find in cycling clothes. My sister has lots
of them. I have none, it's always jeans shorts and T-shirt. Old ones
because they get beat up on MTB rides. Lycra would not stand a chance.
There are MTB pedals even on the road bike so I don't need cycling shoes.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 8/29/2016 6:35 PM, wrote:
On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 6:40:25 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/26/2016 1:58 PM, wrote:
Lost track of time yesterday morning and hopped on the bike
-snip ride report-

Near home I had been forced to stop because these new "light" wheel quick releases do not hold well and the rear wheel was pulling over on hard accelerations to make lights and it was like slamming on the brakes.

Get a regular steel QR and lube the cam. They have more
closing force and bite better too. None of that matters with
single-point ends but it does (as you found) with classic
horizontal ends.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

That is my intentions Andrew. But they are getting hard to come by. The best I've used are the old Campy style.


Those are cute and I ride a pair myself but no functional
difference to any modern Taiwan $9.95 steel QR at any LBS.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I've been bragging about the smooth ride of the Basso. Well as they are talking about in the commercials I've been butt blind.

I was so beat up using carbon fiber bikes that the steel bike felt as smooth as glass.

Well after about 300 miles I am beginning to feel the road again on the steel bike. But when I hit a rut or pothole it doesn't hurt and it doesn't throw me off of my line. I have my confidence back descending through it is getting to be time to replace my Armadilloes.

After using those and Gatorskins I find that the Specialized tires have better traction. And I haven't even gotten close to a flat with them.

Taking a quick 34 mile ride today, I made the mistake of riding a couple of miles along Mission Blvd. Inside of those couple miles I ran through six broken whiskey bottles and the Armadilloes picked up nothing.

On Friday, August 26, 2016 at 9:25:17 PM UTC+1, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/26/2016 2:58 PM, wrote:
Lost track of time yesterday morning and hopped on the bike at 8:15
instead of 7:45. Rode fast but still missed the group. Now I normally
know where they're going since they are as predictable as sunrise. But
even going fast I didn't catch them at the top of the hill where they
would have normally waited at least twice for slower set.

On the way down a drop I got hit by a strong side wind. I braced for the
effect and ,,,,,, nothing. I don't know if this Basso Loto has more
directional stability or if I'm simply more relaxed on the bike because
it rides so much better than a stiff riding C40. On the C40 a gust like
that would have pushed me clear across the road.

I rode through Pleasanton and they weren't there. I continued on since I
knew that there was a cafe in Sunol that they could stop at. There was
an awful lot of traffic on the side road and I decided that that *)( )
Goggle Maps was directing people onto the side road because of traffic
jams ahead. There sure weren't any on the adjacent freeway but more and
more traffic was buzzing by me at increasingly unsafe speeds. Coming
around a turn and starting uphill a mile from the stop sign at Niles
Canyon the traffic was stopped. All of those cars that had been driving
by WAY too close were stopped and although many of them had pulled into
the side trying to block me I could get around them. Every car that had
passed me in the last 4 miles was stopped and I passed them all.

Getting up to the stop sign it's a three way stop with traffic in all
directions so I turned right and accelerated up to 22 across the narrow
bridge and pulled into Sunol. Riding into town all of the businesses
were boarded over. This is Governor Moonbeam Brown's thriving economy.
By this time I had been riding pretty much flat out to catch the group
and they weren't here so they must have taken another route. Very unlike them.

But I was worn down so I had to ride slow back the 10 miles to the climb
back over the hill and into Castro Valley.

Oddly enough again the steel bike was showing it's merits. Although my
legs were tired from pushing, my back, my shoulders, my neck and my tush
were not hurting as they ALWAYS would be on the C40.

As I was riding around the turns I could accelerate on the Basso which I
could not do on the C40 because it was so rigid that it kept the wheels
off the ground a lot.

I hit the climb and I seemed to be climbing a lot faster than I did on
the lighter carbon bikes. Maybe this was just my screwed up memory. But
there was a heck of a headwind and I was still going up at 7 to 11 mph
on a 5% climb when that would normally be closer to 6 according to my
memory. As I got to the top my butt was hurting some. But as I cleared
the top and started down this disappeared almost instantly which it never did before.

The Basso is 63 cm C-T and the C40 Large is a 59 C-T of toptube. But the
measurements between handbars, saddle center and pedals is the same. So
the only thing I can attribute this much softer ride to is the steel tubes.

On the downhill I hit 40 mph on a fairly mild descent. On the C40 by
this time I'd be so sore that I'd be more or less coasting.

I took a detour to put in a couple of extra miles but it turned out that
they were the same distance so I ended up getting home at 12:30. 55
miles, 2,000 ft of climbing with a max of 10% and an average speed of
13.6 which is about a mph faster than normal for a ride of this sort.
Near home I had been forced to stop because these new "light" wheel
quick releases do not hold well and the rear wheel was pulling over on
hard accelerations to make lights and it was like slamming on the brakes.

If you are trying to decide on a new carbon fiber bike you might want to
look at the custom steel offerings from Tommasini for about half the
price. And they can talk about carbon fiber breaking all they want and
you needn't pay the slightest attention.

Jan Heine of _Bicycle Quarterly_ talks about what he calls a "planing"
effect with steel bikes of (what he considers) optimum flexibility. As
I understand it, he believes the flex somehow allows the bike to sort of
synchronize with the rider's pedal strokes and make the ride easier than
with a rigid bike. ("Planing" is apparently an allusion to a speedboat
skimming the surface of the water, rather than plowing through it.)

I'm not saying I believe in "planing" in bikes. But you might be
interested that there's at least one guy who would nod knowingly at your
narration.



The same people that are saying that comfort comes from tires and tire
pressure say that a steel frame is much more comfortable than Al or CF.
That is not my experience in 35 years of riding steel, aluminum, titanium
and CF frames. That C40 must have been a very ****ty bike/frame.

I would be that guy around here, one of those guys elsewhere. I dunno about carbon fibre, because I've never had a carbon bike for long enough to form an attachment to it and thus an opinion; anyway, I'm not a roadie, so all that weightweenieness of carbon is wasted on me. But I've had several steel and aluminium bikes all of roughly the same configuration, and my current steel bike is very stiff indeed -- and also very comfortable. Whereas, my aluminium bikes, all from most reputable makers, have been exceedingly stiff, and almost as nasty as a steel Peugeot on which I'm convinced the tubes were misproportioned because surely the hard tyres couldn't have done all that damage to my back.

My experience with Schwalbe's Big Apples over nearly a decade is that they are worth a lot of sacrifices -- not that they ask you to make any, you understand, but if I had to, I'd give up quite a bit to keep them. Offoaders requiring serious grip may consider the middle of the road grip of the Big Apples a sacrifice too far, but I can't think of another; for very fast tarmac downhill corners the grip is not just fine, it is exceptional because of the pure amount of rubber on the road hanging on and hanging on, forever; I've never lost my bike for lack of grip, and I know all about finding a roadholding edge, so by now I should have fallen a few times, and I haven't. For the information of those who don't know, the rolling resistance of the Big Apples is less than high pressure thin tyres, in general, proven in particular in tests at the Sports University at Cologne.

There is no doubt in my mind that just about anyone who has the width in his forks, and who is at all interested in riding comfort (which feeds into riding further and faster), should be be on Big Apples or their fat relatives (there are some Schwalbe tyres that are in fact knobbly Big Apples under another name, too).

From all this, and because I'm generally interested in ergonomics and RSI, and because more obvious causes are missing, I've formed the opinion that what matters beyond the compliance of the tyre sidewalls (the effect of the Big Apple is due to an ultrasoft sidewall as much as it is to the huge volume of air) ***is the way your bike's tube material suppresses or dampens micro-vibrations***. Aluminum doesn't, which accounts for the nasty buzz it gives you. Carbon fibre doesn't appear to dampen microvibrations either, and isn't a nice ride either -- though as I say, I have very little carbon experience. Steel, on the other hand, over the same roads, I can ride further and longer without getting a nasty tingle in my hands, a sign that steel helpes to keep microvibrations out of the controls.

I know, I know. This is an argument by exception, basically saying I've run out of explainable things without spending a lot of time and money devising and conducting tests to prove steel kills micro-vibrations, so I pick on the HF roadbuzz because its absence is the most likely beneficial cause of another welcome absence: the tingle in my hands is gone.

I certainly won't ever again buy anything but a steel frame and fork. I've given up the idea of a stainless steel bike because I suspect that stainless won't have the beneficial qualities of the more traditional bicycle steels and might reintroduce the wretched buzz to my hands.

Andre Jute
Manual worker