Bottom Bracket Bearings

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 4:57:56 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On 4 Sep 2016 19:18:41 GMT, Robert Latest wrote:

John B wrote:
The square axles will limit the actual bearings to the older "loose
ball" type with the adjustable bearing cup and the later Shimano
cartridge type ( BB-UN xx).

The question is which are better bearings, the actual bearings
themselves. Which type will have the longest life.... assuming
intelligent care and lubrication?

The other posters are possibly right in that the cup-and-cone bearings are
of higher quality if you like to adjust and re-grease them every now and
then. That said, I've standardized ally family's bikes to the cheapest
Shimano cartridge bearings (BB-UN-something, with the plastic left-hand
shell) and never had one break in years.

robert

For that matter, the only BB bearings I've had that did actually fail
were on a 10 or 15 year old aluminum frame bike that I kept on the
boat for shore transportation and which had fallen in the ocean a time
or two and no maintenance had, to the best of my knowledge, ever been
accomplished on the bike.

I've had pitting with conventional cup-and-cone BBs, shot cartridge bearings in a variety of designs from Phil to Octalink -- and I went through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. Those were a really, really bad design. Anyway, I've never found any of the BB formats to be bullet proof.

I like the current outboard, threaded BB cups like the Ultegra. Even if the bearings go bad, it cost $17-20 for a replacement, or even cheaper if you find a super-sale, and it takes ten minutes to put them in. Press in bearings are not really that bad either, but installation takes more finesse and tools. I think we hit the pinnacle of BB design with the threaded outboard bearings.

Given that there is only a certain amount of room in a B.B. for a
bearing and a finite distance between the two bearings I suspect that
the outboard bearings are the best design from a technical viewpoint.
But having said that, I suspect that what people label "the best" B.B.
probably depends largely on the person that is using it. I, for
example, have never broken a bottom bracket so my "best" is likely
different from someone that has a history of destroying them. I seem
to remember that Brandt had a lot of problems with crank arms and
pedals, for example, while the only problems I've actually seen with
pedals is "how to get the damned thing off" :-)


Square drive and cup and cone is fine for dry climates, but I wouldn't buy one for here in Oregon -- unless I were committed to routine maintenance. The internal sleeve helps some, but grease still gets washed out.

-- Jay Beattie.

I flew into Sea-Tac twice and it was pouring down rain both times, and
I decided that part of the country was to be avoided in the future :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 4:57:56 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On 4 Sep 2016 19:18:41 GMT, Robert Latest wrote:

John B wrote:
The square axles will limit the actual bearings to the older "loose
ball" type with the adjustable bearing cup and the later Shimano
cartridge type ( BB-UN xx).

The question is which are better bearings, the actual bearings
themselves. Which type will have the longest life.... assuming
intelligent care and lubrication?

The other posters are possibly right in that the cup-and-cone bearings are
of higher quality if you like to adjust and re-grease them every now and
then. That said, I've standardized ally family's bikes to the cheapest
Shimano cartridge bearings (BB-UN-something, with the plastic left-hand
shell) and never had one break in years.

robert

For that matter, the only BB bearings I've had that did actually fail
were on a 10 or 15 year old aluminum frame bike that I kept on the
boat for shore transportation and which had fallen in the ocean a time
or two and no maintenance had, to the best of my knowledge, ever been
accomplished on the bike.

I've had pitting with conventional cup-and-cone BBs, shot cartridge bearings in a variety of designs from Phil to Octalink -- and I went through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. Those were a really, really bad design. Anyway, I've never found any of the BB formats to be bullet proof.

I like the current outboard, threaded BB cups like the Ultegra. Even if the bearings go bad, it cost $17-20 for a replacement, or even cheaper if you find a super-sale, and it takes ten minutes to put them in. Press in bearings are not really that bad either, but installation takes more finesse and tools. I think we hit the pinnacle of BB design with the threaded outboard bearings.

I guess this is a second response to the same message, but is the $17
- 30 replacement cost the complete housing and bearing assembly? Or
only the bearing inside the housing. I remember seeing a youtube some
time ago about how to change the bearing in the housing. I don't see
it now but I did find two articles with only words and pictures, if it
is of any interest:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Holl...earing-change/
http://www.mountainbikerides.co.uk/f...placement.html


On the other hand $20 isn't a lot of money :-)

Square drive and cup and cone is fine for dry climates, but I wouldn't buy one for here in Oregon -- unless I were committed to routine maintenance. The internal sleeve helps some, but grease still gets washed out.

-- Jay Beattie.
--
cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 6:19:50 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 4:57:56 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On 4 Sep 2016 19:18:41 GMT, Robert Latest wrote:

John B wrote:
The square axles will limit the actual bearings to the older "loose
ball" type with the adjustable bearing cup and the later Shimano
cartridge type ( BB-UN xx).

The question is which are better bearings, the actual bearings
themselves. Which type will have the longest life.... assuming
intelligent care and lubrication?

The other posters are possibly right in that the cup-and-cone bearings are
of higher quality if you like to adjust and re-grease them every now and
then. That said, I've standardized ally family's bikes to the cheapest
Shimano cartridge bearings (BB-UN-something, with the plastic left-hand
shell) and never had one break in years.

robert

For that matter, the only BB bearings I've had that did actually fail
were on a 10 or 15 year old aluminum frame bike that I kept on the
boat for shore transportation and which had fallen in the ocean a time
or two and no maintenance had, to the best of my knowledge, ever been
accomplished on the bike.

I've had pitting with conventional cup-and-cone BBs, shot cartridge bearings in a variety of designs from Phil to Octalink -- and I went through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. Those were a really, really bad design. Anyway, I've never found any of the BB formats to be bullet proof.

I like the current outboard, threaded BB cups like the Ultegra. Even if the bearings go bad, it cost $17-20 for a replacement, or even cheaper if you find a super-sale, and it takes ten minutes to put them in. Press in bearings are not really that bad either, but installation takes more finesse and tools. I think we hit the pinnacle of BB design with the threaded outboard bearings.

Given that there is only a certain amount of room in a B.B. for a
bearing and a finite distance between the two bearings I suspect that
the outboard bearings are the best design from a technical viewpoint.
But having said that, I suspect that what people label "the best" B.B.
probably depends largely on the person that is using it. I, for
example, have never broken a bottom bracket so my "best" is likely
different from someone that has a history of destroying them. I seem
to remember that Brandt had a lot of problems with crank arms and
pedals, for example, while the only problems I've actually seen with
pedals is "how to get the damned thing off" :-)


Square drive and cup and cone is fine for dry climates, but I wouldn't buy one for here in Oregon -- unless I were committed to routine maintenance.. The internal sleeve helps some, but grease still gets washed out.

-- Jay Beattie.

I flew into Sea-Tac twice and it was pouring down rain both times, and
I decided that part of the country was to be avoided in the future :-)

It's terrible. I would avoid it, too. http://www.country-magazine.com/wp-c...egonUS30_A.jpg Yesterday's ride around the Bull Run watershed: http://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/01/60/60/91_big.jpg (actually, a little southwest of that spot, but I like the picture). By the way, Portland is dryer than Seattle. We are located more inland.

Rain is not a big deal -- the increasing population and traffic is a big deal, but those things don't present any particular difficulties for bottom brackets -- just for brains.

-- Jay Beattie.

John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 4:57:56 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On 4 Sep 2016 19:18:41 GMT, Robert Latest wrote:

John B wrote:
The square axles will limit the actual bearings to the older "loose
ball" type with the adjustable bearing cup and the later Shimano
cartridge type ( BB-UN xx).

The question is which are better bearings, the actual bearings
themselves. Which type will have the longest life.... assuming
intelligent care and lubrication?

The other posters are possibly right in that the cup-and-cone bearings are
of higher quality if you like to adjust and re-grease them every now and
then. That said, I've standardized ally family's bikes to the cheapest
Shimano cartridge bearings (BB-UN-something, with the plastic left-hand
shell) and never had one break in years.

robert

For that matter, the only BB bearings I've had that did actually fail
were on a 10 or 15 year old aluminum frame bike that I kept on the
boat for shore transportation and which had fallen in the ocean a time
or two and no maintenance had, to the best of my knowledge, ever been
accomplished on the bike.

I've had pitting with conventional cup-and-cone BBs, shot cartridge
bearings in a variety of designs from Phil to Octalink -- and I went
through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. Those were a really, really bad design.
Anyway, I've never found any of the BB formats to be bullet proof.

I like the current outboard, threaded BB cups like the Ultegra. Even if
the bearings go bad, it cost $17-20 for a replacement, or even cheaper
if you find a super-sale, and it takes ten minutes to put them in. Press
in bearings are not really that bad either, but installation takes more
finesse and tools. I think we hit the pinnacle of BB design with the
threaded outboard bearings.

I guess this is a second response to the same message, but is the $17
- 30 replacement cost the complete housing and bearing assembly? Or
only the bearing inside the housing. I remember seeing a youtube some
time ago about how to change the bearing in the housing. I don't see
it now but I did find two articles with only words and pictures, if it
is of any interest:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Holl...earing-change/
http://www.mountainbikerides.co.uk/f...placement.html


On the other hand $20 isn't a lot of money :-)

Square drive and cup and cone is fine for dry climates, but I wouldn't
buy one for here in Oregon -- unless I were committed to routine
maintenance. The internal sleeve helps some, but grease still gets washed out.

-- Jay Beattie.

It includes the housing and the bearings. Although this is not a sound
design (the bearings should have a press fit on the axle) the bearings are
dirt cheap and like Jay already mentioned replaced in 10 minutes. The
problem is when the axle gets damaged, then you are ****ed and have to buy
a new crankset. A sound design is what Campy does on there high end gruppos
(Chorus and up) but that requires a more complex axle design, is more
expensive, more time consuming to install and bearing replacement is a
hassle and not suitable for a person with no mechanical skills.

--
Lou

On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 11:48:41 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 4:57:56 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On 4 Sep 2016 19:18:41 GMT, Robert Latest wrote:

John B wrote:
The square axles will limit the actual bearings to the older "loose
ball" type with the adjustable bearing cup and the later Shimano
cartridge type ( BB-UN xx).

The question is which are better bearings, the actual bearings
themselves. Which type will have the longest life.... assuming
intelligent care and lubrication?

The other posters are possibly right in that the cup-and-cone bearings are
of higher quality if you like to adjust and re-grease them every now and
then. That said, I've standardized ally family's bikes to the cheapest
Shimano cartridge bearings (BB-UN-something, with the plastic left-hand
shell) and never had one break in years.

robert

For that matter, the only BB bearings I've had that did actually fail
were on a 10 or 15 year old aluminum frame bike that I kept on the
boat for shore transportation and which had fallen in the ocean a time
or two and no maintenance had, to the best of my knowledge, ever been
accomplished on the bike.

I've had pitting with conventional cup-and-cone BBs, shot cartridge
bearings in a variety of designs from Phil to Octalink -- and I went
through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. Those were a really, really bad design.
Anyway, I've never found any of the BB formats to be bullet proof.

I like the current outboard, threaded BB cups like the Ultegra. Even if
the bearings go bad, it cost $17-20 for a replacement, or even cheaper
if you find a super-sale, and it takes ten minutes to put them in. Press
in bearings are not really that bad either, but installation takes more
finesse and tools. I think we hit the pinnacle of BB design with the
threaded outboard bearings.

I guess this is a second response to the same message, but is the $17
- 30 replacement cost the complete housing and bearing assembly? Or
only the bearing inside the housing. I remember seeing a youtube some
time ago about how to change the bearing in the housing. I don't see
it now but I did find two articles with only words and pictures, if it
is of any interest:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Holl...earing-change/
http://www.mountainbikerides.co.uk/f...placement.html


On the other hand $20 isn't a lot of money :-)

Square drive and cup and cone is fine for dry climates, but I wouldn't
buy one for here in Oregon -- unless I were committed to routine
maintenance. The internal sleeve helps some, but grease still gets washed out.

-- Jay Beattie.

It includes the housing and the bearings. Although this is not a sound
design (the bearings should have a press fit on the axle) the bearings are
dirt cheap and like Jay already mentioned replaced in 10 minutes. The
problem is when the axle gets damaged, then you are ****ed and have to buy
a new crankset. A sound design is what Campy does on there high end gruppos
(Chorus and up) but that requires a more complex axle design, is more
expensive, more time consuming to install and bearing replacement is a
hassle and not suitable for a person with no mechanical skills.

Shimano's design is sound -- but probably not optimal. All BB30 cranks have the same design. In fact all integrated axle cranks except for Campagnolo have the same design with minor variations in axle diameter and length. I've broken one Hollowtech integrated axle crank, and I broke the crank arm and not the axle. None of my integrated axle cranks (Hollowtech, SRAM and Praxis Works) have had a problem with the axle bearing interface. I don't know whether the design has been problematic for others.

-- Jay Beattie.

jbeattie wrote:
On Monday, September 5, 2016 at 11:48:41 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 4:57:56 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On 4 Sep 2016 19:18:41 GMT, Robert Latest wrote:

John B wrote:
The square axles will limit the actual bearings to the older "loose
ball" type with the adjustable bearing cup and the later Shimano
cartridge type ( BB-UN xx).

The question is which are better bearings, the actual bearings
themselves. Which type will have the longest life.... assuming
intelligent care and lubrication?

The other posters are possibly right in that the cup-and-cone bearings are
of higher quality if you like to adjust and re-grease them every now and
then. That said, I've standardized ally family's bikes to the cheapest
Shimano cartridge bearings (BB-UN-something, with the plastic left-hand
shell) and never had one break in years.

robert

For that matter, the only BB bearings I've had that did actually fail
were on a 10 or 15 year old aluminum frame bike that I kept on the
boat for shore transportation and which had fallen in the ocean a time
or two and no maintenance had, to the best of my knowledge, ever been
accomplished on the bike.

I've had pitting with conventional cup-and-cone BBs, shot cartridge
bearings in a variety of designs from Phil to Octalink -- and I went
through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. Those were a really, really bad design.
Anyway, I've never found any of the BB formats to be bullet proof.

I like the current outboard, threaded BB cups like the Ultegra. Even if
the bearings go bad, it cost $17-20 for a replacement, or even cheaper
if you find a super-sale, and it takes ten minutes to put them in. Press
in bearings are not really that bad either, but installation takes more
finesse and tools. I think we hit the pinnacle of BB design with the
threaded outboard bearings.

I guess this is a second response to the same message, but is the $17
- 30 replacement cost the complete housing and bearing assembly? Or
only the bearing inside the housing. I remember seeing a youtube some
time ago about how to change the bearing in the housing. I don't see
it now but I did find two articles with only words and pictures, if it
is of any interest:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Holl...earing-change/
http://www.mountainbikerides.co.uk/f...placement.html


On the other hand $20 isn't a lot of money :-)

Square drive and cup and cone is fine for dry climates, but I wouldn't
buy one for here in Oregon -- unless I were committed to routine
maintenance. The internal sleeve helps some, but grease still gets washed out.

-- Jay Beattie.

It includes the housing and the bearings. Although this is not a sound
design (the bearings should have a press fit on the axle) the bearings are
dirt cheap and like Jay already mentioned replaced in 10 minutes. The
problem is when the axle gets damaged, then you are ****ed and have to buy
a new crankset. A sound design is what Campy does on there high end gruppos
(Chorus and up) but that requires a more complex axle design, is more
expensive, more time consuming to install and bearing replacement is a
hassle and not suitable for a person with no mechanical skills.

Shimano's design is sound -- but probably not optimal. All BB30 cranks
have the same design. In fact all integrated axle cranks except for
Campagnolo have the same design with minor variations in axle diameter
and length. I've broken one Hollowtech integrated axle crank, and I broke
the crank arm and not the axle. None of my integrated axle cranks
(Hollowtech, SRAM and Praxis Works) have had a problem with the axle
bearing interface. I don't know whether the design has been problematic for others.

-- Jay Beattie.


Shimano's design is a compromise which in practice works for most people.
Two of my riding buddies developed play in the axle bearing interface and
had to replace the complete crankset. That could have been avoided easily
if they checked/cleaned the interface and replaced the bearings as soon as
they got partly stuck or rusted solid. On my dirt bikes I take the crank
off and check the interface every season and I replace the bearings when
they don't run smooth anymore. It is easy and bearing replacement is cheap.
On my frames with press fit BB I stick with the Campagnolo design.


YMMV

--
Lou

On 9/5/2016 1:48 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
John B. wrote:
On Sun, 4 Sep 2016 17:35:59 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

On Sunday, September 4, 2016 at 4:57:56 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On 4 Sep 2016 19:18:41 GMT, Robert Latest wrote:

John B wrote:
The square axles will limit the actual bearings to the older "loose
ball" type with the adjustable bearing cup and the later Shimano
cartridge type ( BB-UN xx).

The question is which are better bearings, the actual bearings
themselves. Which type will have the longest life.... assuming
intelligent care and lubrication?

The other posters are possibly right in that the cup-and-cone bearings are
of higher quality if you like to adjust and re-grease them every now and
then. That said, I've standardized ally family's bikes to the cheapest
Shimano cartridge bearings (BB-UN-something, with the plastic left-hand
shell) and never had one break in years.

robert

For that matter, the only BB bearings I've had that did actually fail
were on a 10 or 15 year old aluminum frame bike that I kept on the
boat for shore transportation and which had fallen in the ocean a time
or two and no maintenance had, to the best of my knowledge, ever been
accomplished on the bike.

I've had pitting with conventional cup-and-cone BBs, shot cartridge
bearings in a variety of designs from Phil to Octalink -- and I went
through ISIS BBs like Kleenex. Those were a really, really bad design.
Anyway, I've never found any of the BB formats to be bullet proof.

I like the current outboard, threaded BB cups like the Ultegra. Even if
the bearings go bad, it cost $17-20 for a replacement, or even cheaper
if you find a super-sale, and it takes ten minutes to put them in. Press
in bearings are not really that bad either, but installation takes more
finesse and tools. I think we hit the pinnacle of BB design with the
threaded outboard bearings.

I guess this is a second response to the same message, but is the $17
- 30 replacement cost the complete housing and bearing assembly? Or
only the bearing inside the housing. I remember seeing a youtube some
time ago about how to change the bearing in the housing. I don't see
it now but I did find two articles with only words and pictures, if it
is of any interest:

http://www.instructables.com/id/Holl...earing-change/
http://www.mountainbikerides.co.uk/f...placement.html


On the other hand $20 isn't a lot of money :-)

Square drive and cup and cone is fine for dry climates, but I wouldn't
buy one for here in Oregon -- unless I were committed to routine
maintenance. The internal sleeve helps some, but grease still gets washed out.

-- Jay Beattie.

It includes the housing and the bearings. Although this is not a sound
design (the bearings should have a press fit on the axle) the bearings are
dirt cheap and like Jay already mentioned replaced in 10 minutes. The
problem is when the axle gets damaged, then you are ****ed and have to buy
a new crankset. A sound design is what Campy does on there high end gruppos
(Chorus and up) but that requires a more complex axle design, is more
expensive, more time consuming to install and bearing replacement is a
hassle and not suitable for a person with no mechanical skills.


+1
Good summary.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

mileage plus $$$ ....

yeah I went from ball n cone to a square tapir Shim BB ( Nbar sold the Edwardian 3 ring CR for $12 remeber ) and held this plastic eneveloped garbage wonerdeing as per 544/409 Buick WTH I had been scammed with....

so I asked AM n he said no problem screw it in.

n after 6 years on the van's back door....still AAA. That the plastic cas did not crack .....incroyable

for $20 I wud redo for the CDT

the outside bearing design is interesting....again why not in 1995 ? bike upgrade run into the....'ok we learned that placing a bucket under the drip will .....'

Slocum ? are these Shimano BB available in your jungle and how so ?

On 06/09/16 04:48, Lou Holtman wrote:


It includes the housing and the bearings. Although this is not a sound
design (the bearings should have a press fit on the axle) the bearings are
dirt cheap and like Jay already mentioned replaced in 10 minutes. The
problem is when the axle gets damaged, then you are ****ed and have to buy
a new crankset. A sound design is what Campy does on there high end gruppos
(Chorus and up) but that requires a more complex axle design, is more
expensive, more time consuming to install and bearing replacement is a
hassle and not suitable for a person with no mechanical skills.


I obviously have some mechanical skills.

Yeehaw!

--
JS

On Wednesday, September 7, 2016 at 1:45:12 AM UTC-7, James wrote:
On 06/09/16 04:48, Lou Holtman wrote:


It includes the housing and the bearings. Although this is not a sound
design (the bearings should have a press fit on the axle) the bearings are
dirt cheap and like Jay already mentioned replaced in 10 minutes. The
problem is when the axle gets damaged, then you are ****ed and have to buy
a new crankset. A sound design is what Campy does on there high end gruppos
(Chorus and up) but that requires a more complex axle design, is more
expensive, more time consuming to install and bearing replacement is a
hassle and not suitable for a person with no mechanical skills.


I obviously have some mechanical skills.

Yeehaw!

I think it's more about tool ownership. The various BB standards are part of a giant conspiracy between Park Tools and certain other shadowy interests -- perhaps the Yakuza or Mafia. If you have a BB30 frame and a Campy crank, you can go whole-hog and spend over $200 in tools for the Park CBP3, CBP5 and a BBP-1 or a headset press. Throw in the $700-1000 Super Record crank, and you're starting to talk some money.

-- Jay Beattie.