Habanero shows up curved stays

On 4/18/2017 10:37 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
As mentioned before, most bicycle lanes hereabouts have the bicyclist riding right in the door zone and or set the bicyclist up for the right hook at intersections becausethe bicyclist isd placed between the curb and the line of traffic.

I often wonder if bicyclists are even consulted during the design phase of bicycle lanes.

Two examples.

First, our local club got word (through my contacts with the local
metropolitan planning organization) that the city was trying for a grant
for a bike facility to connect the downtown to the metropolitan park
about a mile away. About a dozen club members attended the public
meeting and said "This design is nuts! Two way bikes on one side of the
road? On a sidewalk with pedestrians? Crazy problems at intersections?
Even though these quiet side streets are perfect for riding right now?
All you need to do is fix the potholes!" But the city submitted the
draft plans anyway, hoping to get the grant. So the people who are
actually likely to ride hope they don't get the grant - at least, unless
the design is changed completely.

Second: I attended two online seminars recently on the design of bike
facilities. (The third one is still coming up.) At the first, the
presenter mentioned the often-used categories of bicyclists: 1% "strong
and fearless" and 6% "enthused and confident" (IOW, those groups
actually ride); 60% "interested but concerned; and 33% "no way no how."
Then she mentioned the problem, from her viewpoint: If you have a
public meeting about a bike facility, the top 7% (i.e. those who
actually ride bikes) are the people who will come and speak. But they
want to appeal to the 60% who they think might some day ride a bike,
maybe. So the top 7% are kind of a problem.

Think about that. The people that actually know what they're doing and
actually do what is desired are a problem because they're actually
interested. Is there another field in which the ignorant get more
recognition than the experts?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:26:28 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-18 08:08, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:46:18 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
That's what you have in Europe a lot, bad bike path designs. In the
US they are mostly better but incomplete, you have two miles of
bike path or lane because some grant mandated that, followed by ...
nothing. Then some people react like Frank, saying that bike paths
in general are "nonsense". If all engineers thought that way most
inventions would have never happened and we'd be living like the
Flintstones.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Wait a minute! You've been praising the European type bicycle
infrastructure for ages here on RBT and now you're saying that a lot
of it is bad?


Europe consists of a lot of countries. There are some where planners
know how to do it and others where they don't.

Germany has some nice "bicycle-autobahns" but also a lot of thoroughly
botched bike path and bike lane designs. For example, they don't get it
into their heads that one can reduce the danger of a right-hook and
other accident by simply placing a sign "Bike Xing" or their equivalent.
What I heard (but haven't verified) is that many bike paths are
supposedly designed for a cycling speed of 12km/h which is less than
8mph. I thought they were kidding but they said they weren't. That is
one thing we do much better in the US where most bike paths are designed
for 15mph.

The Netherlands and Denmark are countries where planners largely do it
right. The results speak for themselves in the form of mode share. I
could feel the contrast full brunt because I moved between Germany and
the Netherlands twice and crossed the border almost daily most of the
time I lived in the Netherlands.


... Is that the same "a lot" as "a lot of bicyclists in the
US wil use new bicycle lanes" if only they are built?


A lot more potential than here in the US. One of the reasons is that
Europeans are more accustomed to not using a car for errands. For
example, where we lived in Europe almost every family had a sturdy
"rolling shopping container". They look like oversized carry-on bags
with wheels and a handle:

https://www.swissmountain-handbags.c...-standard-102/

People walk out their front door and simply hoof it to the store. We did
that all the time. We had one car together and occasionally it wouldn't
start because it sat in the garage for way too many weeks. Here in the
US we quickly realized that this does not work. No sidewalks, almost no
bike lanes, nada, plus a rather nonsensical split into residential and
commercial zones causing long distances. So here we have two cars even
though we keep the mileage down to less than 1200mi/year each (my other
4000mi/year are on bicycles).

However, I strongly believe the potential in the US is sufficient to
justify bike paths. I do not think areas like Portland would have
achieved anything close to their current mode share without cycling
infrastructure.

Who knows about Portland. The parts of town with the highest mode share have only minimal infrastructure. No separate bicycle autobahns. With that said, infrastructure can attract riders, but it is an open question about how much infrastructure is necessary to get people on bikes. And then you get to the question of what cost is society willing to bear to get another .005% of road users on bikes. Some people really would ride if you gave them elevated bicycle tubes and valet parking -- and a motor. But then again, they might not. The bowling-ball ladies on the elevator would not ride, even if you gave them a cup holder for their venti mocha carmel whipped cream Starbucks concoction and morning pastry.

Also, be careful about your wish. Riding with herds of squirrely cyclists is not fun. It is just traffic.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/18/2017 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 18:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We were told bike lane stripes would get Americans out of cars and onto
bikes. That didn't happen.

Then we were told that _buffered_ bike lane stripes would get Americans
out of cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Then we were told that separate bike trails would get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Now we're told that "protected" bike lanes will get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That's not going to happen either.


Wrong on all counts. Go to Manhattan and take a look. Or to Portland. Or
to ...

Joerg, have you ever been to Portland? My kid used to live in the
center of the city. I was there a lot.

Google images for "Portland traffic." You'll see photos of thousands
and thousands of cars. Look he
http://images.google.com/search?tbm=...rtland+Traffic

Yes, you see some people riding bikes. Some days and some weather
conditions on certain streets you can see quite a few of them. But for
every bike you see far more than 100 cars.

Keep in mind, Portland's supposed "7% bike mode share" applies only to
people whose residence is in the city. It ignores the countless
non-residents who drive in the city each day.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-04-18 12:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/18/2017 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 18:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We were told bike lane stripes would get Americans out of cars and onto
bikes. That didn't happen.

Then we were told that _buffered_ bike lane stripes would get Americans
out of cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Then we were told that separate bike trails would get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Now we're told that "protected" bike lanes will get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That's not going to happen either.


Wrong on all counts. Go to Manhattan and take a look. Or to Portland.
Or to ...

Joerg, have you ever been to Portland? My kid used to live in the
center of the city. I was there a lot.

Google images for "Portland traffic." You'll see photos of thousands
and thousands of cars. Look he
http://images.google.com/search?tbm=...rtland+Traffic

Yes, you see some people riding bikes. Some days and some weather
conditions on certain streets you can see quite a few of them. But for
every bike you see far more than 100 cars.


http://media.oregonlive.com/business...3993-large.jpg

https://bikeportland.org/2016/09/15/...ta-show-191430

"Some"?


Keep in mind, Portland's supposed "7% bike mode share" applies only to
people whose residence is in the city. It ignores the countless
non-residents who drive in the city each day.


The city itself has more than half a million residents. But I guess we
can ask Jay to shed some light on this since he lives and works there.
And most of all commutes via bicycle.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 12:17:39 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/18/2017 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 18:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We were told bike lane stripes would get Americans out of cars and onto
bikes. That didn't happen.

Then we were told that _buffered_ bike lane stripes would get Americans
out of cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Then we were told that separate bike trails would get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Now we're told that "protected" bike lanes will get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That's not going to happen either.


Wrong on all counts. Go to Manhattan and take a look. Or to Portland. Or
to ...

Joerg, have you ever been to Portland? My kid used to live in the
center of the city. I was there a lot.

Google images for "Portland traffic." You'll see photos of thousands
and thousands of cars. Look he
http://images.google.com/search?tbm=...rtland+Traffic

Yes, you see some people riding bikes. Some days and some weather
conditions on certain streets you can see quite a few of them. But for
every bike you see far more than 100 cars.

Keep in mind, Portland's supposed "7% bike mode share" applies only to
people whose residence is in the city. It ignores the countless
non-residents who drive in the city each day.

Traffic does suck, but each and every one of those cars has a bumper sticker that says "my other car is a bike," and "I'd rather be riding." Many of those cars have bike racks! Enough said.

I am going to reduce the bike mode share by knocking out the next fool I see with an MP3 and speakers on his or her bike. WTF? Why does someone need to blare music on his or her (last time her) bike? I've had it with this world! I'm going to ride my bike into a crowd and take them all out! Alah Snackbar! I could probably kill 20 or 30 people if I use one of those Biketown bikes. They weigh like 90 pounds. https://www.biketownpdx.com/ Not the dog! https://www.instagram.com/p/BSj9YkFDUXi/

-- Jay Beattie.

On 4/17/2017 6:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

snip

We were told bike lane stripes would get Americans out of cars and onto
bikes. That didn't happen.

Then we were told that _buffered_ bike lane stripes would get Americans
out of cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Then we were told that separate bike trails would get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Now we're told that "protected" bike lanes will get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That's not going to happen either.

Wrong on all counts. At least in many parts of the country.

And of course we were never told that any of those would get all, or
even most, Americans out of their cars and onto bikes. It was always an
effort to slightly increase the numbers.

On 4/18/2017 10:35 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 17:22, sms wrote:
On 4/17/2017 1:57 PM, Duane wrote:

I'm just wondering why? Is there some requirement to only get parts
at a
department store?

No, but it was kind of nice when you could go into a hardware store or
department store or drug store and buy basic bike stuff like tires,
chains, brake pads, racks, pedals, seats, etc. If you go into a
department store in Asia it's like stores in the U.S. used to be, they
did not get rid of all the merchandise that doesn't have 300% or more
mark-ups.

One issue is that bicycle shops often have bankers hours or worse, other
than Performance. REI also has good hours.


"Hey, you need help?" ... "No, just waiting for the Amazon drone to
deliver a new tire".

I remember riding down the Oregon coast in the 1980's. None of the
little towns had a bicycle shop. But they all had a hardware store with
a bunch of bicycle stuff and camping stuff. If you needed a chain or a
tire you could buy one good enough to get by.

On 2017-04-18 12:16, jbeattie wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:26:28 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-18 08:08, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 10:46:18 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped
That's what you have in Europe a lot, bad bike path designs. In
the US they are mostly better but incomplete, you have two
miles of bike path or lane because some grant mandated that,
followed by ... nothing. Then some people react like Frank,
saying that bike paths in general are "nonsense". If all
engineers thought that way most inventions would have never
happened and we'd be living like the Flintstones.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Wait a minute! You've been praising the European type bicycle
infrastructure for ages here on RBT and now you're saying that a
lot of it is bad?


Europe consists of a lot of countries. There are some where
planners know how to do it and others where they don't.

Germany has some nice "bicycle-autobahns" but also a lot of
thoroughly botched bike path and bike lane designs. For example,
they don't get it into their heads that one can reduce the danger
of a right-hook and other accident by simply placing a sign "Bike
Xing" or their equivalent. What I heard (but haven't verified) is
that many bike paths are supposedly designed for a cycling speed of
12km/h which is less than 8mph. I thought they were kidding but
they said they weren't. That is one thing we do much better in the
US where most bike paths are designed for 15mph.

The Netherlands and Denmark are countries where planners largely do
it right. The results speak for themselves in the form of mode
share. I could feel the contrast full brunt because I moved between
Germany and the Netherlands twice and crossed the border almost
daily most of the time I lived in the Netherlands.


... Is that the same "a lot" as "a lot of bicyclists in the US
wil use new bicycle lanes" if only they are built?


A lot more potential than here in the US. One of the reasons is
that Europeans are more accustomed to not using a car for errands.
For example, where we lived in Europe almost every family had a
sturdy "rolling shopping container". They look like oversized
carry-on bags with wheels and a handle:

https://www.swissmountain-handbags.c...-standard-102/



People walk out their front door and simply hoof it to the store. We did
that all the time. We had one car together and occasionally it
wouldn't start because it sat in the garage for way too many weeks.
Here in the US we quickly realized that this does not work. No
sidewalks, almost no bike lanes, nada, plus a rather nonsensical
split into residential and commercial zones causing long distances.
So here we have two cars even though we keep the mileage down to
less than 1200mi/year each (my other 4000mi/year are on bicycles).

However, I strongly believe the potential in the US is sufficient
to justify bike paths. I do not think areas like Portland would
have achieved anything close to their current mode share without
cycling infrastructure.

Who knows about Portland. The parts of town with the highest mode
share have only minimal infrastructure. No separate bicycle
autobahns.


That's ok as long as it is safe. In one of our local cycling paradises
(Folsom, CA) the old town core has no cycling infrastructure, it
presents a gap in the bike path system. Yet it is safe and I enjoy
riding through it.


... With that said, infrastructure can attract riders, but it
is an open question about how much infrastructure is necessary to get
people on bikes. And then you get to the question of what cost is
society willing to bear to get another .005% of road users on bikes.
Some people really would ride if you gave them elevated bicycle tubes
and valet parking -- and a motor. But then again, they might not.
The bowling-ball ladies on the elevator would not ride, even if you
gave them a cup holder for their venti mocha carmel whipped cream
Starbucks concoction and morning pastry.


Those folks will never ride no matter how easy you make it.


Also, be careful about your wish. Riding with herds of squirrely
cyclists is not fun. It is just traffic.


Oh yeah. I remember sitting in rush hour traffic jams in the
Netherlands. All around me were green and blue bikes. In the morning
there were way more bikes than cars. In the evening that stretched out
because not everyone was on strict shifts.

Even on the bike trail towards Sacramento I avoid high cycle traffic
times because then it's tougher to pass slower riders.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 4/18/2017 4:01 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-18 12:17, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/18/2017 10:26 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 18:52, Frank Krygowski wrote:

We were told bike lane stripes would get Americans out of cars and onto
bikes. That didn't happen.

Then we were told that _buffered_ bike lane stripes would get Americans
out of cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Then we were told that separate bike trails would get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That didn't happen either.

Now we're told that "protected" bike lanes will get Americans out of
cars and onto bikes. That's not going to happen either.


Wrong on all counts. Go to Manhattan and take a look. Or to Portland.
Or to ...

Joerg, have you ever been to Portland? My kid used to live in the
center of the city. I was there a lot.

Google images for "Portland traffic." You'll see photos of thousands
and thousands of cars. Look he
http://images.google.com/search?tbm=...rtland+Traffic

Yes, you see some people riding bikes. Some days and some weather
conditions on certain streets you can see quite a few of them. But for
every bike you see far more than 100 cars.


http://media.oregonlive.com/business...3993-large.jpg

Yes, as I said, some days and some weather conditions on certain
streets. And if you get a long lens on your camera and position
yourself just right on some streets, you can pretend that the bikes
outnumber the cars.

But for non-propaganda photos, google "portland traffic" as I did. Or
look at Google Earth's views. Or Streetview. Or just go visit. You'll
see bikes, but you'll see FAR more cars.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-04-18 13:11, sms wrote:
On 4/18/2017 10:35 AM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-04-17 17:22, sms wrote:
On 4/17/2017 1:57 PM, Duane wrote:

I'm just wondering why? Is there some requirement to only get parts
at a
department store?

No, but it was kind of nice when you could go into a hardware store or
department store or drug store and buy basic bike stuff like tires,
chains, brake pads, racks, pedals, seats, etc. If you go into a
department store in Asia it's like stores in the U.S. used to be, they
did not get rid of all the merchandise that doesn't have 300% or more
mark-ups.

One issue is that bicycle shops often have bankers hours or worse, other
than Performance. REI also has good hours.


"Hey, you need help?" ... "No, just waiting for the Amazon drone to
deliver a new tire".

I remember riding down the Oregon coast in the 1980's. None of the
little towns had a bicycle shop. But they all had a hardware store with
a bunch of bicycle stuff and camping stuff. If you needed a chain or a
tire you could buy one good enough to get by.


That's all over. ACE doesn't carry any bicycle stuff anymore. In our
areas it's just bike shops and then you have to hope they aren't closed
when you get there.

For motor vehicles it's easier. A BMW rider I saw with a flat front tire
had already called a friend. Else I could have cycled back to a gas
station which would have been just a mile and gotten him one of those
flat fix cans. Wouldn't have worked for a cyclist because they wouldn't
have a tube or anything suitable for a Presta valve.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/