Frank -

I told you about how the spokes are too long on the tubeless aero wheels I have.

I took them into the local wheel builder and he put a tensiometer on them and said that they had the proper spoke tension.

Now I know that cannot be the case because of the way they ring.

So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much larger and stiffer aero spoke?

This is what I believe the problems are with these wheels. They tighten the spokes to a given tension as measured by the nipple torque. The trouble is that while that has one reading on a thin round spoke that isn't even enough torque to pull these aero spokes straight let alone give them sufficient tension.

What do you think?

On 7/25/2019 4:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I told you about how the spokes are too long on the tubeless aero wheels I have.

I took them into the local wheel builder and he put a tensiometer on them and said that they had the proper spoke tension.

Now I know that cannot be the case because of the way they ring.

So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much larger and stiffer aero spoke?

This is what I believe the problems are with these wheels. They tighten the spokes to a given tension as measured by the nipple torque. The trouble is that while that has one reading on a thin round spoke that isn't even enough torque to pull these aero spokes straight let alone give them sufficient tension.

What do you think?


Tensiometer charts include scales for 12g, 13g, 14g, 15g,
16g, 17g round wire spoke center section as well as aero models.

The absolute reading is an arbitrary number. Without the
chart for that particular tool, it has no meaning. Did he
consult his wall chart or just note that your aero spokes
read at a similar value to 14-16 round wire spokes?


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 3:38:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 4:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I told you about how the spokes are too long on the tubeless aero wheels I have.

I took them into the local wheel builder and he put a tensiometer on them and said that they had the proper spoke tension.

Now I know that cannot be the case because of the way they ring.

So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much larger and stiffer aero spoke?

This is what I believe the problems are with these wheels. They tighten the spokes to a given tension as measured by the nipple torque. The trouble is that while that has one reading on a thin round spoke that isn't even enough torque to pull these aero spokes straight let alone give them sufficient tension.

What do you think?


Tensiometer charts include scales for 12g, 13g, 14g, 15g,
16g, 17g round wire spoke center section as well as aero models.

The absolute reading is an arbitrary number. Without the
chart for that particular tool, it has no meaning. Did he
consult his wall chart or just note that your aero spokes
read at a similar value to 14-16 round wire spokes?

And did he consult with the manufacturer? Some of these low spoke-count aero wheels have ridiculously high recommended tensions for the freewheel side, e.g. 150 kgf.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Thursday, July 25, 2019 at 3:38:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/25/2019 4:41 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I told you about how the spokes are too long on the tubeless aero wheels I have.

I took them into the local wheel builder and he put a tensiometer on them and said that they had the proper spoke tension.

Now I know that cannot be the case because of the way they ring.

So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much larger and stiffer aero spoke?

This is what I believe the problems are with these wheels. They tighten the spokes to a given tension as measured by the nipple torque. The trouble is that while that has one reading on a thin round spoke that isn't even enough torque to pull these aero spokes straight let alone give them sufficient tension.

What do you think?


Tensiometer charts include scales for 12g, 13g, 14g, 15g,
16g, 17g round wire spoke center section as well as aero models.

The absolute reading is an arbitrary number. Without the
chart for that particular tool, it has no meaning. Did he
consult his wall chart or just note that your aero spokes
read at a similar value to 14-16 round wire spokes?


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Robbie is a good wheel builder but he didn't refer to any charts. My comparison is with 50 mm deep clinchers which are very tight and the wheel does not walk around in the least with the 55 mm deep tubeless in which the my contacts with the manufacturer who gave me the "recommended lengths" turned out to measure exactly the same as the 50 mm clincher.

Essentially when I measure the distance on the made wheel I end up with spoke lengths 10 mm shorter than the ones the factory suggested.

Also, ringing the spokes with a tool shows them to be very loose and with a very wide tension ratio from spoke to spoke.

Mu assumption from ringing the clincher spokes is that they are probably the same ratio of torque but since they are so tight they all sound pretty similar.

I also assume that the difference in torque from spoke to spoke has to do with the layup not being very symmetrical since this sort of wheel is entirely different from an aluminum extrusion.

On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
wrote:

I told you about how the spokes are too long on the tubeless aero wheels I have.

I took them into the local wheel builder and he put a tensiometer on them and said that they had the proper spoke tension.

Now I know that cannot be the case because of the way they ring.

So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much larger and stiffer aero spoke?

This is what I believe the problems are with these wheels. They tighten the spokes to a given tension as measured by the nipple torque. The trouble is that while that has one reading on a thin round spoke that isn't even enough torque to pull these aero spokes straight let alone give them sufficient tension.

What do you think?

I can't say for spoke Tension Gauges but the same device used for
rigging cable on sailboats have different scales for different
thickness of cable.
https://www.apsltd.com/media/catalog.../l/s/lspt1.jpg
It may be the same for spokes.
--

Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

On 7/28/2019 12:36 AM, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).


And as regards bicycle spokes, the tool measures deflection
across a fixed span with a fixed[1] load. At any given
tension, various diameters or thicknesses of material will
deflect differently, hence the companion chart.

[1]With a spring used on various diameters so not exactly
fixed but close enough for our purposes.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:36:56 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

We're in agreement about that - but the problem is that plucking a spoke on the clincher offers a much higher note than on the tubeless. The "correct" spoke lengths that the factory sent me are 10 mm longer than the one's I'm measuring on the wheel itself.

Andrew do you sell aero spokes and nipples?

On 7/28/2019 9:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:36:56 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

We're in agreement about that - but the problem is that plucking a spoke on the clincher offers a much higher note than on the tubeless. The "correct" spoke lengths that the factory sent me are 10 mm longer than the one's I'm measuring on the wheel itself.

Andrew do you sell aero spokes and nipples?


Maybe, it depends.
Mavic type? Campagnolo type? S-head Hoshi? Slot-the-hubshell
type DT? Straight-pull? Not so aero ACI/ AeroAlpina?
Stainless? Aluminum? Carbon?

Some yes some no and not all lengths.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sunday, July 28, 2019 at 8:55:26 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/28/2019 9:34 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Saturday, July 27, 2019 at 10:36:56 PM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On Thu, 25 Jul 2019 14:41:35 -0700, Tom Kunich wrote:


So my question to you is - How is it possible for a tensiometer to work
on a small, thin double butted spoke and give the same reading on a much
larger and stiffer aero spoke?

You asked for tension. This is a measurement that is not related to
thickness. E.G. Nylong and steel strings ona guitar can provide the same
note. Perhaps you are thinking of the tension eqivaslent to the tone
(depth of sound).

We're in agreement about that - but the problem is that plucking a spoke on the clincher offers a much higher note than on the tubeless. The "correct" spoke lengths that the factory sent me are 10 mm longer than the one's I'm measuring on the wheel itself.

Andrew do you sell aero spokes and nipples?


Maybe, it depends.
Mavic type? Campagnolo type? S-head Hoshi? Slot-the-hubshell
type DT? Straight-pull? Not so aero ACI/ AeroAlpina?
Stainless? Aluminum? Carbon?

Some yes some no and not all lengths.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

I didn't know they made aluminum spokes. Anyway they are J-bend spokes, as aero as you can get, as a test to see if I'm on the right track, 12 spokes 244 mm, another 12 spokes 248 mm and 20 spokes 246 mm. If it doesn't improve this wheelset I will accept defeat and go back to the clinchers which work almost perfectly. If It is better to double that order since I have two sets of wheels then that would also be good.