Light works

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2014 1:37 PM, jbeattie wrote:

I think throwing on a 350 gram battery/light that outputs 1700 lumen
maximum
and 5 hours at 425 lumens is pretty elegant. Peel it off and ride in the
day.
No lugging around a hub dynamo, light and associated wiring. BTW, those are
the weight/light stats on my sale-table L&M Seca ($90 -- killer deal).
The battery pack sits on my stem -- or on the laundry room counter for the
last three to four months. My current headlight is a practically
microscopic,
flea-watt LED blinky that I use when it is dreary or I stay at work too
late.

And since mountain biking is more of an event and not a commute (for
most people),
the likelihood of leaving without a charged battery is low. If I
intended to ride
trails all night, I would reconsider. And I agree that hub dynamos make
sense on
dedicated commuters, although I have not gone that route, although I
consider
it every year on that day I forget to charge my battery.

There's no doubt that battery technology and headlamp technology have
improved greatly. So has dynamo technology, of course.


With the lights I don't think it has improved. Efficiency and light
output, yes. Sturdiness, definitely not.


And I suppose for almost all people doing challenging off-road trails
(i.e. not people choosing to ride mountain bikes on the road or on
smooth paths), batteries are still best.

But in the dozens of nighttime club rides I've led, I've never had a
ride where someone's battery light didn't fail. And while it's true
that most true mountain bike rides are events rather than commutes, the
"Oh, I thought it was charged" failures would still have a bad result,
just as in the rides I've led. I've seen quite a few of those types of
failures.

Disclosu I haven't led one of those rides for several years. But
I've got one coming up next month. Maybe this will be the first one
without a headlight failure.


Which brings up the topic of decent electrical structures on bicycles.
On cars the industry figured this out 100 year ago. Not so on bicycles.
And it would be bone simple:

a. Provide decent size central battery. If companies were really clever
they'd make one that can go _into_ the hollow and otherwise unused
steerer or seat post. With splice for rear light.

b. Provide a decent front lamp that puts out at least 1000 lumens. Make
it so you can switch high/low beam. After all, the auto industry has
figured this out since more than 80 years.

c. Rear light with central battery connect and sturdy aluminum enclosure.

Switches could be anywhere, in the lights or near the battery, doesn't
matter as long as they are sturdy. High/low beam if provided should be
in reach though.

But I guess we'll have to build it in the garage shop ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 8/28/2014 12:33 PM, Joerg wrote:
wrote:
not so.....night riders in the park are seen with midlevel systems
both on bike and helmet....good enough for 25 mph on pavement.


25mph on pavement ... yawn

What I meant is something that also holds up at 25mph on a bone-rattling
trail. Like it does on cars. No super-expensive boutiques stuff, regular
affordable gear, just like on cars or motorcycles.

I use such trails regularly also for commutes and pretty soon it'll be
dark when I get back. So right now I sometimes have three different
lighting systems front an back in order to be able to switch to the next
after one fails.

No market for it at the prices such devices would command.

The sad thing is that we're going the wrong way. Look at an old Belt
Beacon. Those were very rugged. You could bolt them on and they would
not go anywhere.

You could use rugged trailer lights but you need flash circuitry.

The most rugged light I've seen are the Aervoe and VISIONX strobes.
These can withstand being run over by a truck. The deal is that you'd
have to fabricate a mounting bracket to attach them securely to a
bicycle in the proper orientation.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MXL0H2U
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005TFQHAS
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003GAXXUU

On 8/29/2014 7:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

But in the dozens of nighttime club rides I've led, I've never had a
ride where someone's battery light didn't fail. And while it's true
that most true mountain bike rides are events rather than commutes, the
"Oh, I thought it was charged" failures would still have a bad result,
just as in the rides I've led. I've seen quite a few of those types of
failures.

Disclosu I haven't led one of those rides for several years. But
I've got one coming up next month. Maybe this will be the first one
without a headlight failure.


Which brings up the topic of decent electrical structures on bicycles.
On cars the industry figured this out 100 year ago. Not so on bicycles.
And it would be bone simple:

a. Provide decent size central battery. If companies were really clever
they'd make one that can go _into_ the hollow and otherwise unused
steerer or seat post. With splice for rear light.

b. Provide a decent front lamp that puts out at least 1000 lumens. Make
it so you can switch high/low beam. After all, the auto industry has
figured this out since more than 80 years.

c. Rear light with central battery connect and sturdy aluminum enclosure.

Switches could be anywhere, in the lights or near the battery, doesn't
matter as long as they are sturdy. High/low beam if provided should be
in reach though.

But I guess we'll have to build it in the garage shop ...

OK, just back from a nighttime run to the grocery store. And enjoying
my lights.

As it happens, the very first 10 speed (count 'em - ten actual speeds) I
bought had internal wiring for generator lights. I bought it in 1972,
IIRC. I have thought that would be handy, especially on my folding
bike, where wires might snag during the fold-unfold process.

But there would be problems with a central battery. No battery lasts
forever, especially if it's not treated with care - i.e. kept reasonably
charged, not allowed to overheat, etc. The way almost all Americans use
bikes, the batteries would die of neglect before they were ever used at
all. Unless, I suppose, Apple came out with an iBike that was so
addictive and feature-filled that nobody under 30 could stand to be
without it for a day! ;-)

1000 lumens is overkill. A car headlamp is somewhere close to that, and
it's enough to drive at 55 mph (yep, even just one) and/or blind
oncoming road users if badly aimed. Rather than wishing for more and
more lumens, consider wishing for better optics so the light goes where
it's really needed. (Most bike headlights waste roughly half their
lumens, and badly direct the half that's not wasted, causing non-uniform
illumination that hampers night vision.)

This blog post and discussion might be helpful:
http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/new-lights/

Having said that, if you really are night riding on tricky single track,
you probably need a really broad and round beam. But most commuting
cyclists are on roads, and can benefit from optics more than from lumens.

Regarding high/low beams: For one long period during my headlight
experiments, I had two halogen headlamps fitted to my bike. The wiring
was set up so I could turn on either headlamp, or both (above about 14
mph, so my generator could handle it). I also had the incandescent
taillight switched, so I could see the effect of its power draw. The
control switches were on my handlebar. My bike was one of the very few
that needed a wiring diagram. :-)

I enjoyed playing with that setup, comparing different headlamps and so
on. But when I got the Busch & Muller IQ Cyo headlamp, I saw no need
for the experiments any more. It takes a really rare and unusual set of
circumstances for me to wish for more light. And that's invariably just
a wish for light in some oddball direction, the kind of problem some
people solve with headlamps. (I'm not fond of headlamps, though.)

On tonight's ride, I once again noticed that the Cyo lights up stop
signs nearly 1/4 mile away. I understand the new models are even better.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/28/2014 11:18 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Joerg wrote:
wrote:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_112922/article.html


So when do bike accessory manufacturers finally wake up and build
something like this? Why do things take so long with bicycles?

Until now all the lights I've tried and seen are between "barely bright
enough" and utter junk.


B&M Luxos U is looking pretty good so far, although I haven't taken it out
for a night ride yet and I'm still wrestling with mounting.

I'm just curious - what's your issue with mounting?



It's currently cantilevered off the fork crown and
1) The thin metal thingy that I have between the fork crown and the actual
light mount is a bit springy and the light pattern bounces up and down when
I hit bumps (amplified by the sharp cutoff of the light).
2) The shift cables from my STI shifters sit a little bit in front of the
light and reflect a bit of light back.

I currently think I may make an Aluminum bridge across my front low rider
rack (just over the front fender) which should be more stable and also sit
further forwards, as well as trimming an inch or so off of the shift cable
housing.

On 30/08/14 00:34, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 28, 2014 11:42:20 PM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:

I think a roadbike with 8 bar inflated 23 mm wide tires on Belgium

cobblestones take a lot more beating than a ATB with 2.5 inch
wide

nobby tires with front suspension.

Maybe, but most of us don't ride on Belgian cobbles -- and look at
what they do to road bikes. Paris Roubaix is littered with broken
parts.

I don't know if a hub dynamo is a good thing on a mountain bike and
defer to those who use them. Personally, I wouldn't bother with one
because of all the wiring and additional crap on my bike that would
get infrequent use, being that night trail riding is not something I
would do often. A battery light would be a more reasonable option,
and I could simply shift a light from my road bike for trail riding.
I also wonder whether a dynamo would put out enough light when I was
picking my way up forested single track at 4mph. It seems to add so
much complexity without a real pay-off. The calculus is different on
a commuter that gets a lot of night time use.

Um, complexity? If anything there is *less* complexity, because the
power source is integral with the bike - where as a battery must be
strapped on somewhere, and usually still has a cable from battery to light.

Folks to 24h enduro MTB events with dynamo lights as their primary light
source. It can't be that bad, Jay, in fact the people who use them
often use them because they decide the dynamo light option is _better_.

--
JS

On 30/08/14 02:06, Joerg wrote:
James wrote:
On 29/08/14 09:55, Joerg wrote:
James wrote:
On 29/08/14 08:27, Joerg wrote:


Europeans use hub dynamos a lot. It would be possible but difficult on
my mountain bike because it has a serious disc brake up front. I'd
be ok
with a central Li-Ion battery if some company made a better holder than
those flimsy Velcro thingies.

Maybe take a look here...
http://www.sp-dynamo.com/8Xseriesdynamo%20hub.html


When I win the lottery :-)

Is it really that much?


Yes, plus it weighs a pound or so and the unsuspended parts of a vehicle
should be as lighht as possible. Unless the weight is mission-critical
such as in brake discs where I wish they wouldn't put holes in them.

No. The hub I have weighs about 300g, IIRC, and a regular front hub is
over 150g already. The additional weight is no where near a pound or so.



I think Schmidt and Sons in Germany makes something like this but then
you be looking at 100 Euros plus labor. I really don't like to do
spokes. Have done it but hated it.

Mine (SP PV-8) was about $150AUD delivered.

Ah, c'mon, front wheel spokes are easy.


On a MTB they must be super tight. That's where the lion's share of the
brake force during a gnarly downhill section goes into.

Back to wheel building school for you.



I'll raise your tonne of capacity for, well, infinite capacity while the
wheels keep turning ;-)


A dynamo sure would be nice but I'd still like to have a sizeable
battery. On an MTB you are often crawling up a very steep incline and
you really do not want your lights to extinguish 1/3rd of the way up. A
dynamo isn't going to produce at 2mph.


2mph? That's slower than walking pace. I'd get off and walk if I
couldn't pedal faster than that.



This then.. http://www.starbike.com/en/son-edelux-2-led-front-lamp/


Seems to come without bracket. They need to offer with bracket. The
light is super expensive as it is (would be over US$200) and then I'd
expect not to have to build any missing stuff myself. Also, I hope that
black ring in back ain't plastic or it won't survive.


You didn't look very far. There's a metal bracket to attach it to your
bars. All nice and smooth so you don't cut for knee as you fly over the
bars, etc.

--
JS

On 30/08/14 02:20, Joerg wrote:
Lou Holtman wrote:


You have to realize that your commute route is far from usual.


Not in the Netherlands but in some parts of the world that is usual :-)

Even in your area it can be. I lived in your country for six years, in
Zuid Limburg. I rode over into Belgium a lot and over there we had lots
of remote and rugged mountainous paths that people used as shortcuts.
Many times I almost cussed my dynamo-driven lights because uphill they
produced so little light that I had to hop off the bike and walk it,
mostly to avoid doing an endo in a pothole that I didn't see.


Was that with a modern LED headlight?

--
JS

James schreef op 30-8-2014 8:48:
On 30/08/14 02:20, Joerg wrote:
Lou Holtman wrote:


You have to realize that your commute route is far from usual.


Not in the Netherlands but in some parts of the world that is usual :-)

Even in your area it can be. I lived in your country for six years, in
Zuid Limburg. I rode over into Belgium a lot and over there we had lots
of remote and rugged mountainous paths that people used as shortcuts.
Many times I almost cussed my dynamo-driven lights because uphill they
produced so little light that I had to hop off the bike and walk it,
mostly to avoid doing an endo in a pothole that I didn't see.


Was that with a modern LED headlight?


I won't say that dynamo driven lights are the best choice for technical
mountainous paths were the speed can drop below 10 km/hr, but I can't
understand why modern dynamo driven LED head and rear lights don't
produce enough light to see and to be seen especially rear lights. If so
than your rear lights of you car don't produce enough light either.
From 15 km/hr and up you my lights are at full power.

Lou

SMS wrote:
On 8/28/2014 12:33 PM, Joerg wrote:
wrote:
not so.....night riders in the park are seen with midlevel systems
both on bike and helmet....good enough for 25 mph on pavement.


25mph on pavement ... yawn

What I meant is something that also holds up at 25mph on a bone-rattling
trail. Like it does on cars. No super-expensive boutiques stuff, regular
affordable gear, just like on cars or motorcycles.

I use such trails regularly also for commutes and pretty soon it'll be
dark when I get back. So right now I sometimes have three different
lighting systems front an back in order to be able to switch to the next
after one fails.

No market for it at the prices such devices would command.


It can be made at regular price levels. I now have a front light that
costs $65 (from Magnus). The manufacturer made a few mistakes in the
design but only one is left after I cured one and they cured another:
The battery was rattling inside, a cardinal mistake almost all
battery-operated light bicycle light manufacturers make. So I punched
myself four neoprene washer for compression and, voila, no more rattle,
no more light flicker. The original swivel holder is junk but they also
have a very sturdy non-swivel holder that is the best I've evern seen.
This leaves only the switch. If they fix that one day they'd have a good
light at a reasonable price.

I am still looking for something brighter though. 1000 lumens plus, and
that can't run on little batteries as this would take LEDs in the 5-10W
range.


The sad thing is that we're going the wrong way. Look at an old Belt
Beacon. Those were very rugged. You could bolt them on and they would
not go anywhere.

You could use rugged trailer lights but you need flash circuitry.


Or a motorcycle light. If I find nothing else I'll do that. Making a
4-6V to 12V converter or a constant current converter plus a flash
circuit is no big deal (I am an electronics engineer) but those lights
are big and get in the way on an MTB. The only mounting place you have
is the seat post and ideally nothing should be wider than 2-3".


The most rugged light I've seen are the Aervoe and VISIONX strobes.
These can withstand being run over by a truck. The deal is that you'd
have to fabricate a mounting bracket to attach them securely to a
bicycle in the proper orientation.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MXL0H2U
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005TFQHAS
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003GAXXUU


Flares are a good idea but their light goes a bit in the wrong direction.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/29/2014 7:56 PM, Joerg wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:

But in the dozens of nighttime club rides I've led, I've never had a
ride where someone's battery light didn't fail. And while it's true
that most true mountain bike rides are events rather than commutes, the
"Oh, I thought it was charged" failures would still have a bad result,
just as in the rides I've led. I've seen quite a few of those types of
failures.

Disclosu I haven't led one of those rides for several years. But
I've got one coming up next month. Maybe this will be the first one
without a headlight failure.


Which brings up the topic of decent electrical structures on bicycles.
On cars the industry figured this out 100 year ago. Not so on bicycles.
And it would be bone simple:

a. Provide decent size central battery. If companies were really clever
they'd make one that can go _into_ the hollow and otherwise unused
steerer or seat post. With splice for rear light.

b. Provide a decent front lamp that puts out at least 1000 lumens. Make
it so you can switch high/low beam. After all, the auto industry has
figured this out since more than 80 years.

c. Rear light with central battery connect and sturdy aluminum enclosure.

Switches could be anywhere, in the lights or near the battery, doesn't
matter as long as they are sturdy. High/low beam if provided should be
in reach though.

But I guess we'll have to build it in the garage shop ...

OK, just back from a nighttime run to the grocery store. And enjoying
my lights.

As it happens, the very first 10 speed (count 'em - ten actual speeds) I
bought had internal wiring for generator lights. I bought it in 1972,
IIRC. I have thought that would be handy, especially on my folding
bike, where wires might snag during the fold-unfold process.


My road bike has internal wiring as well.


But there would be problems with a central battery. No battery lasts
forever, especially if it's not treated with care - i.e. kept reasonably
charged, not allowed to overheat, etc. The way almost all Americans use
bikes, the batteries would die of neglect before they were ever used at
all. Unless, I suppose, Apple came out with an iBike that was so
addictive and feature-filled that nobody under 30 could stand to be
without it for a day! ;-)


Oh yeah, an iBike :-)

A battery is easy though. I use my cell phone like most American do with
their bikes. Sometimes it doesn't get used in a whole month or two. Yet
its Li-Ion battery is as new after more than 5 years. Then there are
Eneloop batteries where users can get a replacement for around $20 even
at Costco. The trick is to build in smarts. Show the user when it needs
a re-charge. Let the bike emit a faint bippp .... bippp sound or
whetever. Learn from the cell phone industry. Learn from the smoke
detector guys. Show the users when the battery is near the end of its
service life. It ain't rocket science.

I mean, seriously, what's so difficult about a central battery stashed
in the seat tube?


1000 lumens is overkill. A car headlamp is somewhere close to that, and
it's enough to drive at 55 mph (yep, even just one) and/or blind
oncoming road users if badly aimed. Rather than wishing for more and
more lumens, consider wishing for better optics so the light goes where
it's really needed. (Most bike headlights waste roughly half their
lumens, and badly direct the half that's not wasted, causing non-uniform
illumination that hampers night vision.)

This blog post and discussion might be helpful:
http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/11/11/new-lights/

Having said that, if you really are night riding on tricky single track,
you probably need a really broad and round beam. But most commuting
cyclists are on roads, and can benefit from optics more than from lumens.


I am on trails a lot, including in the dark. The beam has to be wide and
round because the bike has 4" suspension travel and also rocks up and
down the trail terrain. And you need to see branches jutting out
overhead so you can duck away in time (else you'd potentially break your
neck). Then upon entering a road there should be a mode where some of
the LEDs can be turned off so a low beam pattern develops, in order not
to blind others. It is not so difficult to build but so far I've only
see low cost Chinese lights with auch a multi-LED arrangement and the
reviews are mixed when it comes to reliability.


Regarding high/low beams: For one long period during my headlight
experiments, I had two halogen headlamps fitted to my bike. The wiring
was set up so I could turn on either headlamp, or both (above about 14
mph, so my generator could handle it). I also had the incandescent
taillight switched, so I could see the effect of its power draw. The
control switches were on my handlebar. My bike was one of the very few
that needed a wiring diagram. :-)

I enjoyed playing with that setup, comparing different headlamps and so
on. But when I got the Busch & Muller IQ Cyo headlamp, I saw no need
for the experiments any more. It takes a really rare and unusual set of
circumstances for me to wish for more light. And that's invariably just
a wish for light in some oddball direction, the kind of problem some
people solve with headlamps. (I'm not fond of headlamps, though.)


Head lamps are outright hazardous where I ride. Gets you tangled into a
tree branch in a jiffy and then there's probably going to be a rescue
effort followed by an obituary.


On tonight's ride, I once again noticed that the Cyo lights up stop
signs nearly 1/4 mile away. I understand the new models are even better.


You probably don't ride trails much at night, then it's ok.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/