Mount a Tubular in only 4 days ??

The Discovery / Lance Armstrong team web site says that the team chief
mechanic has a secret recipe that requires 4 days to mount a tubular
tire.

What's the secret to a 4-day tire mount ?? Do they start on a friday
and pray for adhesion on sunday and declare victory on monday ??

Am I making a mistake by mounting my tires in only 3 days or what ??

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies wrote:
The Discovery / Lance Armstrong team web site says that the team
chief
mechanic has a secret recipe that requires 4 days to mount a tubular
tire.

What's the secret to a 4-day tire mount ?? Do they start on a friday
and pray for adhesion on sunday and declare victory on monday ??

Am I making a mistake by mounting my tires in only 3 days or what ??

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

I would guess he is starting from scratch with a bare, never used
carbon fiber rim. Day 1 is put a coat of glue on the rim. Day 2 is
put a second coat of glue on the rim and a coat of glue on the tubular
base tape. Day 3 is put a coat of glue on the rim and mount the tire
while its still wet. Day 4 ride the rim/tire combination.

After the rim gets its built up coat of tubular glue, then its probably
only a 24 hour period between mounting a new tire and riding the wheel
on the road.

On 18 Jan 2005 17:25:07 -0800, (Donald
Gillies) wrote:

The Discovery / Lance Armstrong team web site says that the team chief
mechanic has a secret recipe that requires 4 days to mount a tubular
tire.

What's the secret to a 4-day tire mount ?? Do they start on a friday
and pray for adhesion on sunday and declare victory on monday ??

Am I making a mistake by mounting my tires in only 3 days or what ??

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Dear Don,

Dianne_1234 posted the fascinating article he

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?q=...fcjb%404ax.com
or http://tinyurl.com/6aeut

(Thanks again, Dianne! Nice eye for interesting stuff.)

It did not receive unbridled admiration.

Carl Fogel

russel- I would guess he is starting from scratch with a bare, never used
carbon fiber rim. Day 1 is put a coat of glue on the rim. Day 2 is
put a second coat of glue on the rim and a coat of glue on the tubular
base tape. BRBR

This is absurd and continues to show the BS about these tires. Tubie glue will
'dry' is less than 24 hours(about an hour), and layers can be added during the
day, both to the tire and rim.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
russel- I would guess he is starting from scratch with a bare,
never used
carbon fiber rim. Day 1 is put a coat of glue on the rim. Day 2 is
put a second coat of glue on the rim and a coat of glue on the
tubular
base tape. BRBR

This is absurd and continues to show the BS about these tires. Tubie
glue will
'dry' is less than 24 hours(about an hour), and layers can be added
during the
day, both to the tire and rim.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Is it absurd? Does tubular glue dry in less than 24 hours? Many
products have a cure time that is much longer than the drying time.
Concrete is an obvious example. Its dry in a few days. But competent
builders do not start building anything on the new concrete until its
cured in a few weeks. Plaster is another example. Its dry in a few
hours/days. But you don't paint it for several weeks until its fully
cured.

At your place of business where you have legal responsibility and
liability for defective bicycle work, do you glue on tubular tires in
an hour or two and tell the customer the wheel is ready to ride?

On 19 Jan 2005 09:04:17 -0800, may have said:


Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
This is absurd and continues to show the BS about these tires. Tubie
glue will
'dry' is less than 24 hours(about an hour), and layers can be added
during the
day, both to the tire and rim.

Is it absurd? Does tubular glue dry in less than 24 hours?

Yes. It's a solvent-diluted adhesive which does not change its
chemical composition in drying; it merely *dries*. The solvents are
highly volatile, and with a thin coat, they're gone in short order.

Many
products have a cure time that is much longer than the drying time.
Concrete is an obvious example. Its dry in a few days.

You are confusing apples and oranges here. Concrete doesn't dry, it
forms complex hydrates as it cures, literally incorporating much if
not all of the water into the concrete. The chemical reactions
continue in ordinary concrete (without the modern accelerators) for
many years. Evaporative-solvent-based adhesives don't have any
reactions involved; they just dry.

But competent
builders do not start building anything on the new concrete until its
cured in a few weeks.

With accelerators, it can be used in hours. But that's irrelevant to
the discussion; tubular tires aren't set in concrete.

Plaster is another example. Its dry in a few
hours/days. But you don't paint it for several weeks until its fully
cured.

Most of that is the need to ensure that the plaster is fully dried (as
in, free of residual moisture) before applying the sealing primer; if
you don't, you end up with a real mess. This is part of why very
little old-style plaster is used anymore; there are newer, better
alternatives which don't require waiting so long. Once again, though,
it's irrelevant to the discurrion; tubulars aren't glued on with
plaster, either.

At your place of business where you have legal responsibility and
liability for defective bicycle work, do you glue on tubular tires in
an hour or two and tell the customer the wheel is ready to ride?

Excuse me? The *base coats* are what is under discussion; they dry
very fast because they are fully exposed to air. Peter's been doing
this job for long enough that I really think that he knows what he's
doing. Have *you* glued enough tubulars to know what works and what
doesn't? For that matter, have you used enough different types of
adhesive to know the difference between a two-part reactive glue and a
one-part solvent evaporation glue? From your comments, it would not
appear so.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 09:04:17 -0800, russellseaton1 wrote:

Is it absurd? Does tubular glue dry in less than 24 hours? Many
products have a cure time that is much longer than the drying time.
Concrete is an obvious example. Its dry in a few days. But competent
builders do not start building anything on the new concrete until its
cured in a few weeks. Plaster is another example. Its dry in a few
hours/days. But you don't paint it for several weeks until its fully
cured.

At your place of business where you have legal responsibility and
liability for defective bicycle work, do you glue on tubular tires in
an hour or two and tell the customer the wheel is ready to ride?

1) Yes, it is absurd. 2) Your examples are irrelevant, since tubular
glue does not cure. Once the volatile solvents have evaporated, you
should be good to go.

I have to say I've been amused by the incantations people have been
preaching as being absolutely necessary in order to glue a tire on. If
any of this were really necessary, I never would have survived the '70s --
and no one would use these tires. Strange to see the same people who wax
poetic about the advantages of tubulars will go to lengths to explain
their long tire-mounting rituals.

The truth is that a tubular is held onto the rim by the inflation
pressure. If you inflate a tubular off the rim, it will shrink in overall
circumference, since it bulges in cross-section (due to the bias of the
plies of the cord). With the tire on the rim, of course it does not
shrink, but the force is still there, binding it to the rim. The glue is
there to keep it from squirming around on the rim, or rotating so that the
tread is no longer facing out. It also holds the tire on against the
occasional side load you would get in skids or the like.

I defy anyone to be able to tell the difference between putting 4 layers
of glue on a new rim, versus 3, or even 2. Rubbing the rim with a clean
paper towel versus cleaning it with solvents will not make the tire roll.

You do not have to sacrifice a cat under a full moon in order to put a
tire on.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | Do not worry about your difficulties in mathematics, I can
_`\(,_ | assure you that mine are all greater. -- A. Einstein
(_)/ (_) |

Actually Russel, that's not quite right.
In typical construction in a temperate climate here in the US, it's a
few hours to dry enough to walk on. Dry/ cured enough for most decks to
start having material loaded over the steel beams the next morning. It
never is 100% cured. Probably ~90% in 28 days.
John

Werehatrack wrote:

On 19 Jan 2005 09:04:17 -0800, may have said:
...
Many
products have a cure time that is much longer than the drying time.
Concrete is an obvious example. Its dry in a few days.


You are confusing apples and oranges here. Concrete doesn't dry, it
forms complex hydrates as it cures, literally incorporating much if
not all of the water into the concrete. The chemical reactions
continue in ordinary concrete (without the modern accelerators) for
many years. Evaporative-solvent-based adhesives don't have any
reactions involved; they just dry....

A water to cement (w/c) ratio of about 0.2 will produce optimum strength
in Portland cement concrete [1] - however this is not enough water to
for mixing. W/c of 0.3 is about the real world limit with high range
water reducers, and w/c of 0.45 to 0.55 is more common in the real world
(especially if one lets water be added on-site to ready-mix concrete).

[1] Water not used in hydration increases the porosity of the cement
paste, which decreases strength.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island

wrote:

Actually Russel, that's not quite right.
In typical construction in a temperate climate here in the US, it's a
few hours to dry enough to walk on. Dry/ cured enough for most decks to
start having material loaded over the steel beams the next morning. It
never is 100% cured. Probably ~90% in 28 days.

Portland cement stops hydrating and gaining strength if it dries out -
some study of the basics is in order here (the Portland Cement
Association has a pretty good book [1]).

However, 90% of the compressive strength obtained at full hydration at
28 days is a reasonable estimate for Type I Portland cement concrete
moist cured at 72 F.

[1] http://www.cement.org/bookstore/profile.asp?itemid=EB001.

--
Tom Sherman - Near Rock Island