Someone from Australia has been lying to me

On 24/01/12 19:56, Dieter Britz wrote:
James wrote:

On 20/01/2012 11:52 AM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher
wrote:
I don't know if "lying" is the right word, but I certainly was led to
be believe that Australia was "different."

Anywhere is different from everywhere else.

Now I find this comment
about Australia...

"I'm Dutch but live in Australia, no way i'm riding a bike here, way
to dangerous!"

Frank knows a couple of Aussies who say it's fine, so this Dutchman must
be wrong.

(BTW, I know at least a few Dutchmen who ride bike here, in Melbourne,
Australia. Obviously not too dangerous for them.)


In Sydney at least, car drivers generally don't like bikes. I cycled in
Newcastle (upon Hunter, that is) for some years and twice was close to
being forced off the road by nasty truck drivers. My son cycles in Sydney
and gets abused, told he should ride on the foot path. And a lot of
cyclists there do indeed ride on the foot path, on the right side of the
road. In Newcastle I developed a fine set of defensive and protective
instincts, which still operates now, in Denmark, although here it's almost
perfectly safe, car drivers being generally unbelievably considerate of
bikes.

I know what you mean. I have family in Maitland who ride bike, and
relatives in Sydney who say it is just not enjoyable where they live. I
was abused a few times when last I rode from Maitland to Newcastle.

--
JS.

On Jan 24, 3:53Â*pm, James wrote:
On 24/01/12 19:56, Dieter Britz wrote:



James wrote:

On 20/01/2012 11:52 AM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher
wrote:
I don't know if "lying" is the right word, but I certainly was led to
be believe that Australia was "different."

Anywhere is different from everywhere else.

Now I find this comment
about Australia...

"I'm Dutch but live in Australia, no way i'm riding a bike here, way
to dangerous!"

Frank knows a couple of Aussies who say it's fine, so this Dutchman must
be wrong.

(BTW, I know at least a few Dutchmen who ride bike here, in Melbourne,
Australia. Â*Obviously not too dangerous for them.)

In Sydney at least, car drivers generally don't like bikes. I cycled in
Newcastle (upon Hunter, that is) for some years and twice was close to
being forced off the road by nasty truck drivers. My son cycles in Sydney
and gets abused, told he should ride on the foot path. And a lot of
cyclists there do indeed ride on the foot path, on the right side of the
road. In Newcastle I developed a fine set of defensive and protective
instincts, which still operates now, in Denmark, although here it's almost
perfectly safe, car drivers being generally unbelievably considerate of
bikes.

I know what you mean. Â*I have family in Maitland who ride bike, and
relatives in Sydney who say it is just not enjoyable where they live. Â*I
was abused a few times when last I rode from Maitland to Newcastle.

It seems to me we're seeing more of the usual - vague claims of
supposed close calls, allusions to people who don't like riding their
bikes, and accounts of motorists who (horrors!) don't like cyclists,
or (gulp!) say nasty things. As usual, no data, and no evidence that
cycling is any more dangerous than, say, walking down the street.

I could compare those anecdotes with my experience driving my car or
riding my motorcycle. Yes, I've had close calls - like last week,
driving on a crowded freeway and suddenly avoiding the results of the
motorist whose car commenced a 180+ degree spin, the semi that skidded
avoiding her, the other cars braking, dodging and trying to maintain
control.

"... close to being forced off the road by nasty truck drivers"? I
was once forced off a freeway onto the shoulder at 65 mph by a trucker
who either didn't check his mirrors, or just didn't like me. The
result was a sudden flat when my car's tire hit some shoulder debris.
Another time I was nearly run off the freeway by a trucker who
apparently mistook "Left Lane Ends" for "Right Lane Ends."

Drivers who don't like bicyclists? When I'm passing a slower vehicle
on the freeway, it's not unusual for someone wanting to drive far
faster to tailgate me aggressively, even though I can't pass faster
than the car in front of me. I'm sure those drivers don't like me as
a motorist, simply because I'm there.

I don't doubt that things might be more civil in Denmark, or in much
of Europe. Again, friends have told me that strict liability laws
there have made a very noticeable difference, and I'd like to see such
laws enacted here (although the chances are slim at best). But in the
meantime, I'm not going to let every harsh word or rude action prevent
me from riding my bike. If I had waited for some utopia where every
motorist was unfailingly polite and where special green, leafy,
protected tracks whisked me and my bike along to wherever I wanted to
go - well, I'd have missed out on about 40 years of wonderful
experiences.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 24, 3:33Â*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 24, 3:53Â*pm, James wrote:





On 24/01/12 19:56, Dieter Britz wrote:

James wrote:

On 20/01/2012 11:52 AM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher
wrote:
I don't know if "lying" is the right word, but I certainly was led to
be believe that Australia was "different."

Anywhere is different from everywhere else.

Now I find this comment
about Australia...

"I'm Dutch but live in Australia, no way i'm riding a bike here, way
to dangerous!"

Frank knows a couple of Aussies who say it's fine, so this Dutchman must
be wrong.

(BTW, I know at least a few Dutchmen who ride bike here, in Melbourne,
Australia. Â*Obviously not too dangerous for them.)

In Sydney at least, car drivers generally don't like bikes. I cycled in
Newcastle (upon Hunter, that is) for some years and twice was close to
being forced off the road by nasty truck drivers. My son cycles in Sydney
and gets abused, told he should ride on the foot path. And a lot of
cyclists there do indeed ride on the foot path, on the right side of the
road. In Newcastle I developed a fine set of defensive and protective
instincts, which still operates now, in Denmark, although here it's almost
perfectly safe, car drivers being generally unbelievably considerate of
bikes.

I know what you mean. Â*I have family in Maitland who ride bike, and
relatives in Sydney who say it is just not enjoyable where they live. Â*I
was abused a few times when last I rode from Maitland to Newcastle.

It seems to me we're seeing more of the usual - vague claims of
supposed Â*close calls, allusions to people who don't like riding their
bikes, and accounts of motorists who (horrors!) don't like cyclists,
or (gulp!) say nasty things. Â*As usual, no data, and no evidence that
cycling is any more dangerous than, say, walking down the street.

I've never been injured walking down the street. I've been injured on
a bike multiple times. So, you could say that bicycling is infinitely
more dangerous than walking down the street for me.
INFINITELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, in terms of the total population, maybe not.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 25/01/12 10:33, Frank Krygowski wrote:

It seems to me we're seeing more of the usual - vague claims of
supposed close calls, allusions to people who don't like riding their
bikes, and accounts of motorists who (horrors!) don't like cyclists,
or (gulp!) say nasty things. As usual, no data, and no evidence that
cycling is any more dangerous than, say, walking down the street.


I am far from average.

--
JS

On Jan 24, 8:18Â*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jan 24, 3:33Â*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:



On Jan 24, 3:53Â*pm, James wrote:

On 24/01/12 19:56, Dieter Britz wrote:

James wrote:

On 20/01/2012 11:52 AM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher
wrote:
I don't know if "lying" is the right word, but I certainly was led to
be believe that Australia was "different."

Anywhere is different from everywhere else.

Now I find this comment
about Australia...

"I'm Dutch but live in Australia, no way i'm riding a bike here, way
to dangerous!"

Frank knows a couple of Aussies who say it's fine, so this Dutchman must
be wrong.

(BTW, I know at least a few Dutchmen who ride bike here, in Melbourne,
Australia. Â*Obviously not too dangerous for them.)

In Sydney at least, car drivers generally don't like bikes. I cycled in
Newcastle (upon Hunter, that is) for some years and twice was close to
being forced off the road by nasty truck drivers. My son cycles in Sydney
and gets abused, told he should ride on the foot path. And a lot of
cyclists there do indeed ride on the foot path, on the right side of the
road. In Newcastle I developed a fine set of defensive and protective
instincts, which still operates now, in Denmark, although here it's almost
perfectly safe, car drivers being generally unbelievably considerate of
bikes.

I know what you mean. Â*I have family in Maitland who ride bike, and
relatives in Sydney who say it is just not enjoyable where they live. Â*I
was abused a few times when last I rode from Maitland to Newcastle.

It seems to me we're seeing more of the usual - vague claims of
supposed Â*close calls, allusions to people who don't like riding their
bikes, and accounts of motorists who (horrors!) don't like cyclists,
or (gulp!) say nasty things. Â*As usual, no data, and no evidence that
cycling is any more dangerous than, say, walking down the street.

I've never been injured walking down the street. Â*I've been injured on
a bike multiple times. Â*So, you could say that bicycling is infinitely
more dangerous than walking down the street for me.
INFINITELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what should you do about that?

Some would say you should obviously give up cycling. Or wait until
you've got "protected" bike tracks everywhere you want to ride, which
is the same thing.

- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 24, 9:35Â*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 24, 8:18Â*pm, Jay Beattie wrote:









On Jan 24, 3:33Â*pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Jan 24, 3:53Â*pm, James wrote:

On 24/01/12 19:56, Dieter Britz wrote:

James wrote:

On 20/01/2012 11:52 AM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher
wrote:
I don't know if "lying" is the right word, but I certainly was led to
be believe that Australia was "different."

Anywhere is different from everywhere else.

Now I find this comment
about Australia...

"I'm Dutch but live in Australia, no way i'm riding a bike here, way
to dangerous!"

Frank knows a couple of Aussies who say it's fine, so this Dutchman must
be wrong.

(BTW, I know at least a few Dutchmen who ride bike here, in Melbourne,
Australia. Â*Obviously not too dangerous for them.)

In Sydney at least, car drivers generally don't like bikes. I cycled in
Newcastle (upon Hunter, that is) for some years and twice was close to
being forced off the road by nasty truck drivers. My son cycles in Sydney
and gets abused, told he should ride on the foot path. And a lot of
cyclists there do indeed ride on the foot path, on the right side of the
road. In Newcastle I developed a fine set of defensive and protective
instincts, which still operates now, in Denmark, although here it's almost
perfectly safe, car drivers being generally unbelievably considerate of
bikes.

I know what you mean. Â*I have family in Maitland who ride bike, and
relatives in Sydney who say it is just not enjoyable where they live. Â*I
was abused a few times when last I rode from Maitland to Newcastle.

It seems to me we're seeing more of the usual - vague claims of
supposed Â*close calls, allusions to people who don't like riding their
bikes, and accounts of motorists who (horrors!) don't like cyclists,
or (gulp!) say nasty things. Â*As usual, no data, and no evidence that
cycling is any more dangerous than, say, walking down the street.

I've never been injured walking down the street. Â*I've been injured on
a bike multiple times. Â*So, you could say that bicycling is infinitely
more dangerous than walking down the street for me.
INFINITELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what should you do about that?

Some would say you should obviously give up cycling. Â*Or wait until
you've got "protected" bike tracks everywhere you want to ride, which
is the same thing.

I haven't been hit by a car for a long time -- a little mishap with a
bus in 2001, but I wasn't injured. My more recent injuries were from
crashes on ice, slick pavement or pot holes (at night -- with a bright
headlight). In pedestrian terms, these accidents were the same as
slipping and falling on the sidewalk. Everyone wants to talk about
getting hit by cars, but for me, the greater risk is from road
hazards.

What should I do about it? Well, I use appropriately fat tires in the
rain and switch to knobbies or studs in snow or ice. I use a strong
light at night. As for run-ins with cars, I try to be visible, ride
predictably, etc., etc. Again, even with cars, I worry about
environmental conditions -- that I can't be seen in fog or pouring
rain or that I can't stop fast enough on slick pavement. I should move
to Texas -- have Chalo build me a bike. Get a tan.

-- Jay Beattie.

Jay Beattie wrote:
On Jan 24, 9:35 pm, Frank wrote:
On Jan 24, 8:18 pm, Jay wrote:









On Jan 24, 3:33 pm, Frank wrote:

On Jan 24, 3:53 pm, wrote:

On 24/01/12 19:56, Dieter Britz wrote:

James wrote:

On 20/01/2012 11:52 AM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher
wrote:
I don't know if "lying" is the right word, but I certainly was led to
be believe that Australia was "different."

Anywhere is different from everywhere else.

Now I find this comment
about Australia...

"I'm Dutch but live in Australia, no way i'm riding a bike here, way
to dangerous!"

Frank knows a couple of Aussies who say it's fine, so this Dutchman must
be wrong.

(BTW, I know at least a few Dutchmen who ride bike here, in Melbourne,
Australia. Obviously not too dangerous for them.)

In Sydney at least, car drivers generally don't like bikes. I cycled in
Newcastle (upon Hunter, that is) for some years and twice was close to
being forced off the road by nasty truck drivers. My son cycles in Sydney
and gets abused, told he should ride on the foot path. And a lot of
cyclists there do indeed ride on the foot path, on the right side of the
road. In Newcastle I developed a fine set of defensive and protective
instincts, which still operates now, in Denmark, although here it's almost
perfectly safe, car drivers being generally unbelievably considerate of
bikes.

I know what you mean. I have family in Maitland who ride bike, and
relatives in Sydney who say it is just not enjoyable where they live. I
was abused a few times when last I rode from Maitland to Newcastle.

It seems to me we're seeing more of the usual - vague claims of
supposed close calls, allusions to people who don't like riding their
bikes, and accounts of motorists who (horrors!) don't like cyclists,
or (gulp!) say nasty things. As usual, no data, and no evidence that
cycling is any more dangerous than, say, walking down the street.

I've never been injured walking down the street. I've been injured on
a bike multiple times. So, you could say that bicycling is infinitely
more dangerous than walking down the street for me.
INFINITELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what should you do about that?

Some would say you should obviously give up cycling. Or wait until
you've got "protected" bike tracks everywhere you want to ride, which
is the same thing.

I haven't been hit by a car for a long time -- a little mishap with a
bus in 2001, but I wasn't injured. My more recent injuries were from
crashes on ice, slick pavement or pot holes (at night -- with a bright
headlight). In pedestrian terms, these accidents were the same as
slipping and falling on the sidewalk. Everyone wants to talk about
getting hit by cars, but for me, the greater risk is from road
hazards.

For almost all cyclists, the majority of injuries are caused by simple
falls, and most of those are due to road surface hazards. And your
riding sounds more subject to road hazards than most.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Jan 24, 3:33 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

snip


Drivers who don't like bicyclists? When I'm passing a slower vehicle
on the freeway, it's not unusual for someone wanting to drive far
faster to tailgate me aggressively, even though I can't pass faster
than the car in front of me. I'm sure those drivers don't like me as
a motorist, simply because I'm there.


There. You've said it. Simply because you're there. And "not
unusual" to boot.

Bicycles are almost *always* *much* slower than almost *any* motorist
(even you, I'll bet). So, for bicycling, can we multiply by alarge
factor the "dislike" you are perceiving when you toodle down the
freeway in your car (?)

snip

On Jan 24, 9:35 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Jan 24, 8:18 pm, Jay Beattie wrote:



On Jan 24, 3:33 pm, Frank Krygowski wrote:

On Jan 24, 3:53 pm, James wrote:

On 24/01/12 19:56, Dieter Britz wrote:

James wrote:

On 20/01/2012 11:52 AM, TibetanMonkey, the Beach Cruiser Philosopher
wrote:
I don't know if "lying" is the right word, but I certainly was led to
be believe that Australia was "different."

Anywhere is different from everywhere else.

Now I find this comment
about Australia...

"I'm Dutch but live in Australia, no way i'm riding a bike here, way
to dangerous!"

Frank knows a couple of Aussies who say it's fine, so this Dutchman must
be wrong.

(BTW, I know at least a few Dutchmen who ride bike here, in Melbourne,
Australia. Obviously not too dangerous for them.)

In Sydney at least, car drivers generally don't like bikes. I cycled in
Newcastle (upon Hunter, that is) for some years and twice was close to
being forced off the road by nasty truck drivers. My son cycles in Sydney
and gets abused, told he should ride on the foot path. And a lot of
cyclists there do indeed ride on the foot path, on the right side of the
road. In Newcastle I developed a fine set of defensive and protective
instincts, which still operates now, in Denmark, although here it's almost
perfectly safe, car drivers being generally unbelievably considerate of
bikes.

I know what you mean. I have family in Maitland who ride bike, and
relatives in Sydney who say it is just not enjoyable where they live. I
was abused a few times when last I rode from Maitland to Newcastle.

It seems to me we're seeing more of the usual - vague claims of
supposed close calls, allusions to people who don't like riding their
bikes, and accounts of motorists who (horrors!) don't like cyclists,
or (gulp!) say nasty things. As usual, no data, and no evidence that
cycling is any more dangerous than, say, walking down the street.

I've never been injured walking down the street. I've been injured on
a bike multiple times. So, you could say that bicycling is infinitely
more dangerous than walking down the street for me.
INFINITELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So what should you do about that?

Some would say you should obviously give up cycling. Or wait until
you've got "protected" bike tracks everywhere you want to ride, which
is the same thing.


Idiot.

(Aren't you going to use statistics to "prove" he's wrong? Then
deride him for discounting them.)

Dan O wrote:
On Jan 24, 3:33 pm, Frank wrote:

snip


Drivers who don't like bicyclists? When I'm passing a slower vehicle
on the freeway, it's not unusual for someone wanting to drive far
faster to tailgate me aggressively, even though I can't pass faster
than the car in front of me. I'm sure those drivers don't like me as
a motorist, simply because I'm there.


There. You've said it. Simply because you're there. And "not
unusual" to boot.

Bicycles are almost *always* *much* slower than almost *any* motorist
(even you, I'll bet). So, for bicycling, can we multiply by alarge
factor the "dislike" you are perceiving when you toodle down the
freeway in your car (?)

Dan: So what are you proposing? That we wring our hands and give up
our rights to the road? That we should live our lives so nobody ever
dislikes us?

Sorry, that's impossible. I've even had motorists honk their horn at me
because I was in their way as I walked legally in a crosswalk. Does
that mean I should give up walking?

I'm not going to cower and submit because some jerk in a tin box is a
little irritated.

--
- Frank Krygowski